AU Turbo

[Duffman]

Ok I thought I would post this up over the next few weeks to anyone who may be interested in the process of rebuilding/turboing a inline 6. I put it in this part of the forum as I thought more people might notice it rather then in the build thread.

The short story turbo + stock engine = short life at about 190rwkw. This lead to the engine pressurizing the sump forcing oil back up into the catch can, into the turbo, then down into the intercooler and back into the engine causing some bad pinging. I assume you can all guess what the compression test was like after this.

Over the next few weeks the engine will be getting a full rebuild.

I am posting this up for anyone who is considering turboing their falcon just to see the process and how it’s all fitted. Luckily my brother is a mechanic/race driver and has done similar work before and is nice enough to help fix the car.

So here is Day 1





Intercooler (might get a better one and trim that piping up)
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/au2/day1t.1.jpg

Engine Bay
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/au2/day1t.2.jpg

Turbo
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/au2/day1t.3.jpg

Engine
http://i3.photobucket.com/albums/y67/au2/day1t.5.jpg

[Casper]

This will be an interesting read I think.

[ten[A]cio[U]s]

Nice work mate,

I am looking forward to this

- Subscribed

[51OAU]

sweet im very intereded... to start with... is the system on the car u have now a kit? or did u do it yourself?

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by 8lueoval

sweet im very intereded... to start with... is the system on the car u have now a kit? or did u do it yourself?

It was a kit made up from different bits but id recommend if you can get your hands on a kit do it. Your alot better of going to a workshop and getting a kit fully made up to fit the car. Getting bits an pieces along the way is easier/more fun and can be done but I ran into an issue with the waste gate hitting the engine mounts which had to be cut out a little.

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

This was the way my last 2 engines let me know they were near death, did you get the billowing clouds of smoke after boost as the crank pressure was looking for somewhere to go?

Had you done anything to reduce the timing at WOT and under boost conditions? that turns out to be the reason mine kept failing. I know its not ideal, but I got chiptorque to write a program in a J3 chip, it is not boost referenced so its not as good as full management. It was $695 so not much cheaper than a flash tune. Oh - and what have you done with the fuel system? bigger pump and injectors? or jst a rising rate reg.?

Good luck with it, I will be watching.

When I took out the intercooler there was oil everywhere. It didnt smoke out the exhaust or anything it just pinged really bad. The worst thing about this is the day I got it back it had the problem it may of been due to been over revved on the dyno or just the engine decided to let go with the extra power. When most people discuss turbo builds they forget to mention how long it took them to get it correct or how many engines they blew up so I hope by letting everyone some members can avoid these things in the future.

I got bigger injectors/fuel pump but instead they used a rising rate regulator and put two extra injectors on the intercooler mainfold up the top. It works fine but I may get a bigger pump soon.

Originally Posted by sly

Hope it all goes well Duffman. I'll be watching as I've been saving for turbo or S/C for about a year now & hope to go ahead in a couple of months.

BTW how much boost were you running?

I was running 6psi at first it turns out a turbo I got here off a member was a bit shot so I replaced it with a garrett ball bearing one and went to 8psi. I cant really say how well it ran as the engine was always stuffed. If you want to buy turbo gear trust me with one thing buy it new not second hand!

Originally Posted by JC

Duffman/TurboTaxi - I've always wanted to trubo the wagon, but am only after around 150rwkw - enough to scare XR8s/SSs, but not enough to get the missus into too much trouble. Would a stage 1 Snort kit give this sort of result, and if so, would it be prone to the same issues you have both faced. Would an edit make any difference (ie can the edit change timing etc, and can it be boost referenced in an AU?).

I'm subsribing to this thread to see the results!

I was running 180rwkw and it wasn't that exciting. Factor in alot of other costs as youll need some sort of chip etc and an all the small pieces of pipe and addons can really add up in $$. You can't really turbo and 4lt i6 cheaply and it be worthwhile.

-----------------------------------

Day 2 is done now and the engine is out, I havent got any pics yet as it was very late. While its out I am tempted to put a manual in but just gotta hold myself back! Once its all out it looks very unimpressive as its all dirty and oily and the surface rust in places. Ill post up some pics once the engine is open and what will be replaced and at how much.

[AU2PWR]

You can't really turbo and 4lt i6 cheaply and it be worthwhile.


Stay Tuned :

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

You can't really turbo and 4lt i6 cheaply and it be worthwhile.


Stay Tuned :

Let us know what you come up with and keep us posted. Once you chuck in a decent manifold/turbo its already getting pricey. Youd be the first to do a cheap install that would last and be able to produce good power. If you can make your own manifold/piping etc and install it all yourself then you could do it easily and for very cheap but most of this is out of reach for some.

If you want to turbo a falcon I think anything less then 250rwkw isn't worthwhile. I had just under 200rwkw and it was nothing special and the ve ss we have has 230wkw its quick but after 15 mins youv seen it all. Nothing worse then having a turbo falcon to be beaten by a stock turbo skyline that costed less then 10k. Its always best to do it right and do it once and get the best result.

Let us know what you have planned au2pwr and how much $$ you think it will come to all up. But you do know what will happen once you hear the turbo spool youll be chasing more and more rwkw ;)

[private9]

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

You can't really turbo and 4lt i6 cheaply and it be worthwhile.


Stay Tuned :

Have a chat to John, aka EFFalcon if a cheap turbs is what you've got in mind. His setup cost him 2k all up (installed himself) and that includes extra gas converter etc. From memory he's running somewhere around 200rwkw on very low boost, and his last 2 bottom ends have been fairly tired.

[TURBOTAXI]

Originally Posted by Duffman

The short story turbo + stock engine = short life at about 190rwkw. This lead to the engine pressurizing the sump forcing oil back up into the catch can, into the turbo, then down into the intercooler and back into the engine causing some bad pinging. I assume you can all guess what the compression test was like after this.

This was the way my last 2 engines let me know they were near death, did you get the billowing clouds of smoke after boost as the crank pressure was looking for somewhere to go?

Had you done anything to reduce the timing at WOT and under boost conditions? that turns out to be the reason mine kept failing. I know its not ideal, but I got chiptorque to write a program in a J3 chip, it is not boost referenced so its not as good as full management. It was $695 so not much cheaper than a flash tune. Oh - and what have you done with the fuel system? bigger pump and injectors? or jst a rising rate reg.?

Good luck with it, I will be watching.

[private9]

This'll make for great reading. Good on ya for taking the time to document and post it up for all!

[Eu-GenixX]

yes indeed.. i've subscribed to this thread also..

now i don't know if i should buy mags/tyres.. or just get all my turbo gear first..

[sly]

Hope it all goes well Duffman. I'll be watching as I've been saving for turbo or S/C for about a year now & hope to go ahead in a couple of months.

BTW how much boost were you running?

[Turboconvert]

great stuff, i intend to do the same thing down the line sometime after i have saved some money and have paid of the car loan. you have another thread follower here, very interested to hear about all the problems that you come across and how you solve them.......

[JC]

Duffman/TurboTaxi - I've always wanted to trubo the wagon, but am only after around 150rwkw - enough to scare XR8s/SSs, but not enough to get the missus into too much trouble. Would a stage 1 Snort kit give this sort of result, and if so, would it be prone to the same issues you have both faced. Would an edit make any difference (ie can the edit change timing etc, and can it be boost referenced in an AU?).

I'm subsribing to this thread to see the results!

[autwpn]

i just had the same story. i was running 5psi with standard everything which has landed me on the same boat. G&D says that it will cost me between 3500 to 4000 for a standard rebuild (if i remember correctly). I'll be watching closely as my cousins and i want to build my next engine at home.

Best of luck.

[TURBOTAXI]

Hope Duffman doesnt mind me answering this in his thread, 150rwkw is walk in the park on stage 1. You would need to get a J3 chip (Good) flash tune (better) or full management with boost reference (best) and get some more pressure behind injectors (good) or upgarde injectors, pump (better) but 150rwkw wold be such a conservative figure. I got 135rwkw, 472nm? of torque unintercooled and untuned. I know 135rwkw doesnt sound like much, but when N/A was running out of puff, turbo was pulling hard.
I atually miss driving the AU, its like and ex I never really got over, I give my partner a hard time when it is dirty, or she hasnt checked fluids.

[JC]

Originally Posted by TURBOTAXI

Hope Duffman doesnt mind me answering this in his thread, 150rwkw is walk in the park on stage 1. You would need to get a J3 chip (Good) flash tune (better) or full management with boost reference (best) and get some more pressure behind injectors (good) or upgarde injectors, pump (better) but 150rwkw wold be such a conservative figure. I got 135rwkw unintercooled and untuned. I know 135rwkw doesnt sound like much, but when N/A was running out of puff, turbo was pulling hard.

Yeh, I remember your early figures, and the occy strapped coke can catch can! Bush engineering at its best - you are kind of my hero in that regard. If an occy or cable tie can't fix it, then it deserves to stay broken! LOL.

[TURBOTAXI]

Originally Posted by JC

Yeh, I remember your early figures, and the occy strapped coke can catch can! Bush engineering at its best - you are kind of my hero in that regard. If an occy or cable tie can't fix it, then it deserves to stay broken! LOL.

Lol Oh the memories.. I still have the MkII Paint tin catch can..... I should have taken some pics of the engine hanging off the Jib on my old fordson tractor as we pulled it out the first time - looked very hic. Occy and cale tie - thats my emergency repair kit.

[blackers10]

some costs of the builds would really help those who are planning it to see how much it ends up costing!

good luck mate!!

[AU2PWR]

AUsome to see someone is doing this aswell , hopefully some stuff we can learn from this Thread ..

[AU2PWR]

Well .. Pushing coming to Shoving , were Deciding to go Twins and we are making our own manifolds , oil lines and stuff ..

Looking at Getting 250rwkws from it on about 6-8psi , whilst still using a Standard Block (yeah yeah i know , they go bang , wait till you see my next trick)

But , the Beuty of it is that it will cost no more than $5000 and Ill Have something that fits my Setting

[Duffman]

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

Well .. Pushing coming to Shoving , were Deciding to go Twins and we are making our own manifolds , oil lines and stuff ..

Looking at Getting 250rwkws from it on about 6-8psi , whilst still using a Standard Block (yeah yeah i know , they go bang , wait till you see my next trick)

But , the Beuty of it is that it will cost no more than $5000 and Ill Have something that fits my Setting

That sounds sweet youll have to show us how you fit them both in as fitting just one in the bay is hard enough. At 250rwkw I think the gearbox/diff might go bang first if you mistreat it. If you can do all that yourself you could rebuild your engine for nothing and get it running good gear and go way further then 250rwkw. Youd have to use fairly small turbo's if your going to go twins as there is no possible way you could fit two of the size I have in there.

The only reason I am a bit sceptical on cheap turbo installs as iv seen them done and then need to be re-done soon after. The benefit though for us QLD people is the laws up here a really turbo friendly compared to what other states have to put up with.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by private9

Have a chat to John, aka EFFalcon if a cheap turbs is what you've got in mind. His setup cost him 2k all up (installed himself) and that includes extra gas converter etc. From memory he's running somewhere around 200rwkw on very low boost, and his last 2 bottom ends have been fairly tired.

$2000 has bought him a mess load of drama's, a car that the cops would throw off the road in a heartbeat and high 14's at the track. I dont see that as worth it at all.

Originally Posted by AU2PWR

Well .. Pushing coming to Shoving , were Deciding to go Twins and we are making our own manifolds , oil lines and stuff ..

Looking at Getting 250rwkws from it on about 6-8psi , whilst still using a Standard Block (yeah yeah i know , they go bang , wait till you see my next trick)

But , the Beuty of it is that it will cost no more than $5000 and Ill Have something that fits my Setting

I'll be interested to see this Daniel and I know that you have the right guys on the job. My issue is that 250rwkw, while attainable, is going to kill your engine and gearbox (order of detonation is unknown at present... stay tuned).




Basically I do not believe a powerful, reliable and trouble free turbo setup on an AU I6 is going to be possible for under $15K minimum unless you have already modified the drivetrain beforehand. (By powerful I mean minimum 250-280rwkw and low 12 ET's for it to even be close to worth the effort)

I see it as this:
Turbo, manifold, exhaust system, Odd's and ends..... MINIMUM $5000 (probably a lot more)
Engine that can take a reliable 250+rwkw day to day.... MINIMUM $5000 (rods, pistons, head work, cam for turbo etc)
Engine management... Edit is the cheapest option... $700 + $1000 tuning
Gearbox strengthening... BTR's do NOT like sudden hits of power... MINIMUM $3000
Engineering (if you bother)... $$Scary$$

Theres an old saying
If its cheap and fast, its not reliable
If its reliable and cheap, its not fast
If its fast and reliable...... IT'S NOT CHEAP!

To this day I have yet to see a decent setup done by anyone on the cheap. What I do see a lot of is fanfare, disappointment, a lot of time boken down, and a car that gets virtually given away as its unsellable and uninsurable. Sad but true.

Originally Posted by Casper

$2000 has bought him a mess load of drama's, a car that the cops would throw off the road in a heartbeat and high 14's at the track. I dont see that as worth it at all.

Thank god i didnt build my car to impress you.
Mess load of dramas? Care to elaborate?
Cops would throw off the road in a minute? so far so good, even had cops spot the cooler and ask questions.
Still on the road.
14.6 on a low compression bottom end and 5psi, reliably, every day, driven to and from work, while spending 45cpl.
it was worth every cent of that $2k with a bucket load more potential then any n/a 6


*prepares another account*

[sly]

Originally Posted by Casper

Basically I do not believe a powerful, reliable and trouble free turbo setup on an AU I6 is going to be possible for under $15K minimum unless you have already modified the drivetrain beforehand. (By powerful I mean minimum 250-280rwkw and low 12 ET's for it to even be close to worth the effort)

Depends how far you want to go. I'd be happy to go no further than CAPA's Powerdyne kit. Assume a stock non-VCT I6 does around 100-110rwkw. The same car with this kit would be good for what? 160-170rwkw? Say a 60% improvement. At $6,000 that's $100 per 1%.

Starting with the same stock I6 you shoot for 250rwkw, spending $15,000 to do it properly as per Casper's list. You get 150% more power. Guess what, still $100 per 1%.

So on BFYB there's nothing in it. You can probably argue that the cost of the CAPA option should include strengthening the tranny. I'd argue that if you don't thrash it all the time the tranny would last pretty well. If you drive under 3000rpm 90% of the time then 90% of the time boost never goes over 4.8PSI. In my case the tranny has 315,000km up and will need replacement eventually. The extra cost of a strengthened box is not much over a reco'd standard spec.

So I reckon you get what you pay for, and on BFYB the CAPA kit doesn't look like such a rip-off after all.

[StealthAu]

Duffman, what was involved in getting yours legal?

[sly]

Originally Posted by stockoau

Duffman, what was involved in getting yours legal?

The answer to this will be interesting to those of us not in Qld. I see from Duffman's workshop build that he has (had?) an exposed pod in the engine bay. Wouldn't get away with that down south but apparently legal in Qld.

[sly]

Originally Posted by Duffman

The short story turbo + stock engine = short life at about 190rwkw. This lead to the engine pressurizing the sump forcing oil back up into the catch can, into the turbo, then down into the intercooler and back into the engine causing some bad pinging. I assume you can all guess what the compression test was like after this.[/url]

So what is the root cause of the problem? Was your compression down to start with (ie worn rings) or did you get serious detonation from too much ignition advance? Obviously I want to avoid the problem, so would appreciate Turbotaxi's take on it as well.

[Eu-GenixX]

exposed filter elements are illegal in queensland....

a mate of mine got pulled up for it... and he used the excuse that the engine bay is the enclosed box... he never got fined.. so that excuse may have worked... but i wouldn't rely on such things..... but pod filters are easy to change/modify to be enclosed... so if you got in trouble for that.. it wouldn't be a hard fix...

[StealthAu]

I've seen plenty of cars with expossed pods pass road worthy, also if its illegal, then whats the go with the unifilters?