ADVICE PLEASE: Mustang GT - Deposit refund?

[Walt Kowalski]

Cliffs/Facts:
In June 17, I gave my Credit Card details over the phone to a FORD DEALER salesman because I wanted a 2018 GT to replace my 17 GT.
The company debited my card the $1,000 and an additional $17 (which wasn’t discussed)
Despite many requests for a price over many months this particular Salesman (who replaced the awesome Salesman I bought my 17 GT from) claimed he couldn’t give a price because he didn’t know what the price would be. Fair enough. Up to a point.
This practice continued well after (in fact a few months) after numerous other dealers had given me a price. EDIT. AND EMAILED ME CONTRACTS.
I contacted him numerous times after I had other prices and he still claimed he didn’t have prices and couldn’t give me a price.
By now my BS meter was going off big time.
Eventually the Salsman rang to say “Your car has just arrived and it will be ready for you on Tuesday”.
When I asked the price, it was many thousands higher than any other dealer - What I’d suspected he might try all along.
I said no thanks. Please refund my deposit.
His Sales Manager rang me straight back and dropped the price by $2,000 immediately..
I said “No thanks. Still too expensive. Please credit my Credit Card the deposit”
He put the whole guilt trip on me claiming it was MY CAR - Despite there being no contract email / issued let alone signed. And no price until five minutes earlier.
I declined and again asked for my refund.
He kept trying to guilt me into it and even asked me to declare the prices I had been given and where I would buy one.
I declined, said it was private information and again asked for my refund.
He kept ignoring and dodging the refund question and claimed IT WAS MY CAR.
I’m not stupid and have bought many new cars and over a dozen brand new Fords.
If there’s NO PRICE there is no contract.
If there’s either no contract written, emailed to me or signed there is no contract. All three definitely no contract.
I’ve since bought an 18GT Fastback AND an 18GT Convertible. They are AWESOME BTW.

What does the AFF brains trust suggest my next step?

[BENT_8]

Why didnt you just tell him what the best price you'd been given was and see if he would match it, if he had of then i would assume that you'd have been happy to have continued with the deal you instigated by making the phone call and providing your deposit details for.
If he couldnt match it then fair enough, but if he could, and had the car sitting there based on your intention to honour the verbal contract you instigated and you just decided to buy elsewhere, im afraid the deposit is his and your 2 new Mustangs cost you $500 more than their contracts suggest.

[GO FURTHER]

I would never pay a deposit on a car or any large ticket item for that matter for which I did not know what the price was.

Caveat emptor.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

I would never pay a deposit on a car or any large ticket item for that matter for which I did not know what the price was.

Caveat emptor.

It’s the only way to be in line for a Mustang before release.

Common practice.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

It’s the only way to be in line for a Mustang before release.

Common practice.

In that case, I would have signed a contract of sale, with the following agreed to added clause by both parties...

"I have the right to a full refund of my holding deposit paid, less any costs prescribed in the cooling-off period applicable to purchasing new cars in my state under consumer laws if I am not happy with the final purchase price when notified in writing, within a 3 working day cooling-off period".

I bet most car salesmen chasing their targets would agree to the above and still take your deposit.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Im afraid the deposit is his and your 2 new Mustangs cost you $500 more than their contracts suggest.

Well $508.50 more each, but yes he wont get the deposit back.

personally I wouldnt put a deposit down without knowing the price..

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Well $508.50 more each, but yes he wont get the deposit back.

personally I wouldnt put a deposit down without knowing the price..

I’m still WAAAY ahead.

It’s the only way to secure a Mustang before relase.

[Fordman1]

Lodge a claim with you Credit Card Company and let them sort it out.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Lodge a claim with you Credit Card Company and let them sort it out.

Yep, I found out this can be done when credit card details are taken over the phone.
https://www.finder.com.au/how-to-rev...rd-transaction

[Sioso]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Lodge a claim with you Credit Card Company and let them sort it out.

Agreed, I just had over a thousand dollars refunded from a rental car company after getting my bank on to them.

I signed the paperwork and paid by credit card before inspecting the car, when I saw the bald tyres I refused to accept it and had to go elsewhere.
The rental car company didn't want to refund the money but the bank got it back.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Why didnt you just tell him what the best price you'd been given was and see if he would match it, if he had of then i would assume that you'd have been happy to have continued with the deal you instigated by making the phone call and providing your deposit details for.
If he couldnt match it then fair enough, but if he could, and had the car sitting there based on your intention to honour the verbal contract you instigated and you just decided to buy elsewhere, im afraid the deposit is his and your 2 new Mustangs cost you $500 more than their contracts suggest.

The Sales Manager said was the BEST DEAL any dealer could do. 6 other dealers blew him out of the water,

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

The Sales Manager said was the BEST DEAL any dealer could do. 6 other dealers blew him out of the water,

Then why didnt you show him the better deal on paper and say match it and ill honour our verbal contract.
Whats there to lose in showing him what you had come up with and giving him the right of refusal, if he refuses its game over and you should be entitled to a refund but not if you've just gone with he better deal elsewhere before discussing it with him, infact, it makes little sense not too unless you had already made your mind up which is beyond his control.

Im not saying he's completely innocent in his methods, but he is a car salesman, he's got your money and it is a cut throat industry so should be factored in as a minimum.

[b0son]

Deposit placed >12 mths ago? Isnt there a 3-6mth max on chargebacks?

In any case, if it was all done over the phone, you can always go to Fair Trading and say the sales guy agreed to refund the deposit if the price was not agreed upon. If they didn't record the conversation, prove otherwise.

[ozrunner]

I'm with BENT_8 on this.

The cars sitting there ready for you to collect so I've no idea why you didn't let him know the lowest price you have since been given and if they matched it then go collect it.

I assume the other prices were also for cars already on the lot.

In addition, how was he to know you may have just wanted to get out of the deal and were telling porkies but if they matched it they would have soon known it was a sale. If not, then no issues would prevail re refund.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

I'm with BENT_8 on this.

The cars sitting there ready for you to collect so I've no idea why you didn't let him know the lowest price you have since been given and if they matched it then go collect it.

I assume the other prices were also for cars already on the lot.

In addition, how was he to know you may have just wanted to get out of the deal and were telling porkies but if they matched it they would have soon known it was a sale. If not, then no issues would prevail re refund.

id do the same to prove a point, why give them the sale for being sneaky. they were hoping that he would be an excited pushover, they were wrong

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

id do the same to prove a point, why give them the sale for being sneaky. they were hoping that he would be an excited pushover, they were wrong

But they asked for the cost he had been given and the dealer so what was the problem telling them. Did he also advise them he may buy a convertible at the same time ?

How can you blame the dealer if you don't give them the facts. If I was the dealer and this info wasn't forthcoming I would smell a rat an assume he had just changed his mind.

Now he may drop the deposit or endeavour to chase it up all to prove a point !!!! Makes a lot of sense when the first dealer may have matched it if given the info asked for. If not, then there would have been no issues refunding his deposit.

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by b0son

Deposit placed >12 mths ago? Isnt there a 3-6mth max on chargebacks?

In any case, if it was all done over the phone, you can always go to Fair Trading and say the sales guy agreed to refund the deposit if the price was not agreed upon. If they didn't record the conversation, prove otherwise.

Will actually did say it was refundable if price was not acceptable to me.

I think possibly this COULD be normal practice to get the CC for such an order.

[mike_nofx]

Originally Posted by Walt Kowalski

Will actually did say it was refundable if price was not acceptable to me.

I think possibly this COULD be normal practice to get the CC for such an order.

My father got a refund on a $1k mustang deposit too. He found a cheaper price and the dealer didn’t want to match the price so he was refunded. The dealer was glad to refund though because he wanted the mustang in stock to sell anyway. Though this is with the first mustangs when there was a long waiting list.

[PG2]

Just wanted to clear a few things up.

I sold cars for 15 years including brand new cars. Yes, Ford was one of those brands. While I'll admit, that I no longer do, I did sell cars during the times of the BA introduction, BF 40th Annviversary GT and BF Cobra GT.

It was very common practice for customers to put down large sums of cash as deposit to secure a very desirable limited edition vehicle. Those customers who didn't want to do this (and there were plenty) simply missed out or at least had to settle for something in a specification that was not ideal.

Also, when you leave a deposit for one of these limited edition/hard to find vehicles not only are you securing a vehicle you are also securing the specification that you want, such as, for example, auto or manual.

For any of you reading the above who did not leave a securing deposit and still got what they wanted after they were released, good on ya, you were very lucky.

Originally Posted by Fiji

I had exact same issue.

I wanted a fgx sprint8. Salesman couldnt give me a firm price but wanted $1000 deposit to reserve a car. I even asked he commit to no more than rrp plus normal dealer delivery. Dealer said he couldnt commit? He wanted to gouge me above rrp? He said he is not ashamed to make a dollar. I responded with Im not ashamed to save a dollar either.

He was pushy for the $1000 deposit and i was worried once the car is announced he hits me for $75k when regular fgx xr8s were going for $55k driveaway.

Then it suspected that once the sprint comes, the regular xr8s would be sold out and it would be $75k or nothing.

I considered leaving a deposit but a rival dealer calls me uo and said he had 3 brand new xr8s, white, emporer and kinetic at $53900. I offered $53500 on kinetic car and deal was done. Glad I grabbed it. Highly doubt the sprint is worth $20-$25k more.

A little bit different in your case. You decided you didn't want to take the risk on losing out on the opportunity to buy a cheaper standard XR8.

I see your point though.

Originally Posted by hayseed

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Plus 1 to this Lot..

Quite Frankly, if you're prepared to let someone take over a Thousand Dollars from your Credit card without some type of Paper/Email trail.That Clearly defines what both parties expectations are?

You deserve to lose your Money..

Nobody deserves to lose their money. People make mistakes, no need to kick a man when he is down.

Originally Posted by Oldbugger

Ring 13FORD. Tell them your story, name the dealer. They will contact the dealer and you will get your money back. You will not be the first one that has complained about this as there are a couple of Mavericks out there that try this on.

13FORD have no authority over dealers. They can speak to them about it but can't demand they give the deposit back.

Originally Posted by Big_Daz

If there is no contract drawn and/or signed by you then they have no grounds to keep your deposit... Had you of gotten a contract, and signed it without the price confirmation being a stipulation it would be a different story but with no signed contract you have no obligation to buy the car and therefore should be entitled to a refund..

Should be does not mean that you actually are. If there is any type of legislation that stipulates what you are saying could you post a link up please. I'm curious, not trying to be a smart ****.

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

That is how limited edition cars are sold, and have been for decades.

When I bought my 40th Anniversary FPV GT back in 2007, it was a ring around to all the dealers to see who still had one available (they pretty much all sold the day they were announced and I wanted a manual) found an auto, rang the next dealer (after calling about 5 or 6 others) and they said they had an allocation of a manual and an auto left. On the spot $1000 holding deposit paid over the phone with credit card to secure the manual one in my name.

Went in the following week to complete the paperwork, then a 6 month wait for your car to arrive.

There are no test drives or tyre kicking, as there are 20 other buyers waiting to get their hands on the same car.

Buying these cars is not like buying a Camry from your local Toyota dealer.

Yep, 100% agree.

[Oldbugger]

[QUOTE=PG2;6182286]Just wanted to clear a few things up.



I respect your comments PG2, but having worked next to the call centre for over 2 years if you complain loud and long you do get heard and problems do get fixed in the customer's favour.

[GT0132]

For there to be a valid contract the price must be agreed to. The fact there was a deposit paid doesn't of itself constitute a sales contract if there was no agreement on price. Neither party has the right to vary the conditions without the approval of the other party. I think the OP should get his deposit refunded . Different story if price was agreed to, then the buyer will lose deposit for pulling out and worse may even be obliged to complete the purchase. May be different rules for cooling off periods which would be stipulated in the contract - but it seems there isn't one .

See Fair Trading in your state as a first step

[sixman]

Was the price above the Ford recommended retail pricing?


When I have preordered in the past - when price was not confirmed- it was stated the price would be according to Ford Aus

[FTE217]

How many would have had a set price when putting down deposits when GTF was announced ? in advance.
Same goes for Sprint.
When your putting a $1-2k deposit down from my 2 times 12mths + in advance it was agreed if price wasn't to satisfaction they agreed to refund deposit no problem at all.
Once pricing was released then it was either agree or disagree, I had no issue.
In Walts phone discussion mind you I would have been ****ed that they call when car arrives at dealer, I would have sorted final price before that.
In saying that, no contract signed nothing is binding - they should refund his $1k in good faith and without prejudice.

[arronm]

I dont think you have a claim, given the circumstances, and now time frame. You didnt even give the dealer a chance to match the price.

Are you are happy with the new cars? , suck it up, learn from it and move on.

[Eaturbo]

Forget and move on. Not worth the man hours for $1000. You paid a deposit to buy the car at recommended retail. You don't have the option to order the car and for them to knock back selling it to someone else only to cancel later cause it doesn't suit. You gave them your commitment when you paid a deposit. A deposit is considered a verbal contract otherwise you wouldn't have paid it. Bit sneaky what they did but you were both playing a game.

[Mr Brooksy]

Personally I'm with Kevin, if a buyer needs to hassle the salesman for a price of a new car, have the salesman deny he has one after multiple other salesman offers one, and then try the guilt trip that they have a car for him with no contract in place, there'd be no way I would trust them with my business.

I known that we are all trying to get ahead in this day and age, but the situation reeks of another salesman doing their best to manipulate the customer. Sorry, but as a customer, you don't need to take that crap, nor should you.

Sure the salesman in question seems to have made a noise about making good on the situation, but for me, his integrity is shot (assuming there's no other info withheld). No way I buy from someone who's playing games with me.

[Junkyard-Dog]

I really can't comprehend why you would put a deposit down when you don't even know what the final price will be. If I was the salesman, I would've been seeing $ signs at that point too.

You certainly made it easy for them to take advantage of you, one way or the other. Not meaning to sound harsh, just the way I see it. The concept of putting a deposit down on a car that costs an unknown amount is absurd to me.

[Walt Kowalski]

Double post sorry

[Walt Kowalski]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I really can't comprehend why you would put a deposit down when you don't even know what the final price will be.The concept of putting a deposit down on a car that costs an unknown amount is absurd to me.

I’m guessing you have never ordered a special car like a Mustang GT 12 months before availability, or any special other Ford , HSV or any other special model pre release?

It’s common practice but it always comes with a guaranteed refund if the price is not acceptable.

Originally Posted by b0son

Deposit placed >12 mths ago? Isnt there a 3-6mth max on chargebacks?

In any case, if it was all done over the phone, you can always go to Fair Trading and say the sales guy agreed to refund the deposit if the price was not agreed upon. If they didn't record the conversation, prove otherwise.

Normally but Westpac have said they will review it because there was no price. And they technically charged my an extra $17 without approval or advice to me.

Originally Posted by GO FURTHER

In that case, I would have signed a contract of sale, with the following agreed to added clause by both parties...

"I have the right to a full refund of my holding deposit paid, less any costs prescribed in the cooling-off period applicable to purchasing new cars in my state under consumer laws if I am not happy with the final purchase price when notified in writing, within a 3 working day cooling-off period".

I bet most car salesmen chasing their targets would agree to the above and still take your deposit.

But they didn’t send me a contract. Im guessing you are in the trade?

Originally Posted by GT0132

For there to be a valid contract the price must be agreed to. The fact there was a deposit paid doesn't of itself constitute a sales contract if there was no agreement on price. Neither party has the right to vary the conditions without the approval of the other party. I think the OP should get his deposit refunded . Different story if price was agreed to, then the buyer will lose deposit for pulling out and worse may even be obliged to complete the purchase. May be different rules for cooling off periods which would be stipulated in the contract - but it seems there isn't one .

See Fair Trading in your state as a first step

That’s how I understand it too. I spoke to a very good lifetime mate this afternoon who has been selling Toyota’s for 30years. He’s a gun. He agreed with you 100%.

But it gets better. He used to work with the Ford guy. Mates words “Xyz is sometimes too clever for his own good and knowing you mate that won’t work for one second”.

Originally Posted by FTE217

How many would have had a set price when putting down deposits when GTF was announced ? in advance.
Same goes for Sprint.
When your putting a $1-2k deposit down from my 2 times 12mths + in advance it was agreed if price wasn't to satisfaction they agreed to refund deposit no problem at all.
Once pricing was released then it was either agree or disagree, I had no issue.
In Walts phone discussion mind you I would have been ****ed that they call when car arrives at dealer, I would have sorted final price before that.
In saying that, no contract signed nothing is binding - they should refund his $1k in good faith and without prejudice.

Correct IMO. Similar to any special model where price is not known.

Originally Posted by Mr Brooksy

Personally I'm with Kevin, if a buyer needs to hassle the salesman for a price of a new car, have the salesman deny he has a price after multiple other salesman offers one, and then try the guilt trip that they have a car for him with no contract in place, there'd be no way I would trust them with my business.

I know that we are all trying to get ahead in this day and age, but the situation reeks of this salesman doing their best to manipulate the customer. Sorry, but as a customer, you don't need to take that crap, nor should you.

Sure the salesman in question seems to have made a noise about making good on the situation, but for me, his integrity is shot (assuming there's no other info withheld). No way I buy from someone who's playing games with me.

No info withheld. And yes. The bloke has blown it. I’m a FLEET buyer and he’s lost my business. Some guys are dumb and shouldn’t be selling new cars.

[XB GS 351 Coupe]

Originally Posted by Junkyard-Dog

I really can't comprehend why you would put a deposit down when you don't even know what the final price will be. If I was the salesman, I would've been seeing $ signs at that point too.

That is how limited edition cars are sold, and have been for decades.

When I bought my 40th Anniversary FPV GT back in 2007, it was a ring around to all the dealers to see who still had one available (they pretty much all sold the day they were announced and I wanted a manual) found an auto, rang the next dealer (after calling about 5 or 6 others) and they said they had an allocation of a manual and an auto left. On the spot $1000 holding deposit paid over the phone with credit card to secure the manual one in my name.

Went in the following week to complete the paperwork, then a 6 month wait for your car to arrive.

There are no test drives or tyre kicking, as there are 20 other buyers waiting to get their hands on the same car.

Buying these cars is not like buying a Camry from your local Toyota dealer.