2009 MB Diesel just stalled and won’t start

[dan76n]

Hi all,
I was driving our Mondeo yesterday when it started shuddering. My thoughts were the gearbox crapped itself so I put it in neutral to roll off the road and straight away it stalled.
NRMA towed it to a safe place and then a guy came out and didn’t know what was wrong.
I had a mobile mechanic come out this morning and checked it out and he said it looks like an electrical fault.
He had me take pics of his device he connected up which shows all the faults.
Had 3 pages first up then he cleared them and tried starting it again and only one fault.
I’ve included the images of the faults.
Any ideas of what’s wrong?
Car has 250,000kms and we have been thinking of upgrading so I really don’t want to spend thousands repairing it.
Any ideas on what the likely issue is?

[Mondaveo]

What was the one fault code after he cleared the three pages of faults and tried starting it? Is that your image0.jpeg?


Through FORScan I've seen an assortment of DTCs present at various times in my car for BCM, mirrors and so forth, much like you have in your other images. The car is operating fine so I assume those are just temporary glitches occurring from time to time. So I think we can probably discount most of those if they were preexisting.

[dan76n]

Originally Posted by Mondaveo

What was the one fault code after he cleared the three pages of faults and tried starting it? Is that your image0.jpeg?
.

Yes it’s image 0.

[Mondaveo]

In image0, U3001:00-08 is associated with the ABS module and the description "improper shutdown" is caused probably from loss of power, so I think this is a symptom and not the culprit.


Searching the internet for more information on that code, lo and behold one of the top results came back to this site. Cobrin had what sounds like exactly the same issue: diesel MB stalled and DTCs including ABS U3001:00-08, and PCM P0335:38-28 for a fault with the Crankshaft Position Sensor (CKP Sensor or CKPS). He's replaced the CKP sensor and the car ran again.
See: Stalled MB TDCi this time looks like I've got it

Now I'm looking through your initial fault codes for DTCs from the PCM and in image2 I see you've got a P0341:31-6C for Camshaft Position Sensor fault.

It seems possible that your camshaft position sensor (CMP sensor) might be faulty and need replacement in the same manner that Cobrin needed to replace his CKP sensor. Or, it might be some other issue related to the timing of the engine.

I've done some more Googling but haven't found a slam-dunk answer relating to a Mondeo. I'll have to ponder it some more, in the mean time here's an explanatory article I found that may be helpful:
https://www.carparts.com/blog/p0341-...single-sensor/

What are the Possible Causes of the P0341 Code?

The code P0341 can be interpreted in different ways depending on the vehicle. Here are the most common causes of code P0341:

• Faulty CMP
• Circuit problems (e.g., damaged wiring and loose connections)
• Defective camshaft reluctor wheel
• Issues with timing components (e.g., a stretched timing chain or failed timing chain tensioner); NOTE: This will usually set other codes.

[dan76n]

Thanks for the detailed response.
I’ve spoken to the two local ford dealers and the earliest they can look at it is 7th of May so I’m thinking I’ll try replace the Camshaft sensor myself.
Anyone got a pic of its exact location?

[dan76n]

Found it. Ordered one and should arrive by Friday. Fingers crossed this is the problem.

[Citroënbender]

The sensors are quite durable.

From memory these are a “slip and grip” crank sprocket for the timing belt. If the crank (flywheel actually) wasn’t pinned last belt change, but timed up by matching texta marks, you can be out enough to set the cam sensor code.

Also winding the engine backwards can affect valve timing in some cars, I think this motor is included.

If the belt is broken you possibly just need new rockers to fix the problem.

[Mondaveo]

Originally Posted by dan76n

Found it. Ordered one and should arrive by Friday. Fingers crossed this is the problem.

I was already looking so I'll just leave here that this Alan Howatt video shows the camshaft position sensor at the 2:01 mark:

• YouTube - 2014 Ford Mondeo Mk4 2l Diesel Timing Chain Replacement

I agree with Citroënbender that although the DTC describes an problem with the data coming from the sensor, it's just as likely the sensor itself is functioning properly and the cause is something other. By all means you may check and change the sensor but you'll need to look to other factors in the event it's not the sensor. Case in point, here's another Alan Howatt video about a no-start concern that seems like a fuel pump fault, but turns out to be an unusual mechanical failure of the camshaft:

• YouTube - 2007 Ford Mondeo Mk4 2l Diesel Odd Camshaft Fault

If you are going to attempt to work on the car yourself you should really get yourself an OBD scanner tool and the FORScan software (which you can get on Windows, Android or iOS). This will be necessary to read any fault codes to help you work out where issues occur as well as inspect live data and perform service procedures. You should look for an OBD tool that can interrogate both HS-CAN and MS-CAN networks for Ford vehicles. I personally use an OBDLink MX wireless dongle which is Bluetooth connected to my Android phone running FORScan.



I've found a few forum threads of other owners troubleshooting similar issues and fault codes. They might be worth reading to see if there's any similarities with your experience. Unfortunately most of these do not have a definitive answer where the OP provides a final post saying how they fixed it.

• TalkFord - Cambelt change and now Gremlins in the ECU!
  • OP reports car running poorly after timing belt service. Seems the culprit is found to be damaged connection to the sensor, but the final post says the issue came back and they were going to replace the sensor.
• TalkFord - Engine refusing to Start
  • OP's car suddenly running poorly, then stalks and won't start. There's lots of juicy discussion about the symptoms and diagnosis and they do find their CMP sensor is apparently damaged, but no follow-up about whether replacement fixed it.
• Ford Owners Club - Camshaft position sensor location
  • They changed their CMP sensor but the car still didn't run, no outcome provided.
• FORScan forum - How to reset learned Camshaft Sensor Values?
  • A fascinating troubleshooting journey, after replacing CKP and CMP sensors the OP ultimately works out that they damaged the flywheel which caused the bad readings from the sensor.

[Citroënbender]

Being 2009 I think it’s a DW10 type motor.

They have a problem for the unfamiliar with the link chain (timing the exhaust cam off the belt driven intake cam) being hydraulically tensioned - with no oil pressure, if you wind the motor backwards it can mistime the exhaust cam.

For correct timing belt replacement you need to pin the flywheel and inlet cam, plus physically lock the ring gear with a suitable gripper to allow the correct torque to be reached when re-tightening the crank sprocket. The flywheel pin alone is only five or six mm and will shear.

One really good thing about the design of these motors as I touched on before, is the rocker arms are like fuses, they fail as protection. A belt failure will almost always result in rocker arm carnage, but no broken cams or cam caps or flatted big-ends. Sump off to remove the shrapnel, clean up and replace the rockers, time the link chain correctly, reseal the motor and fit a new belt.

Hydraulicking is a different fault and one I’ve not seen personally. Gut feeling says the crank and head would survive, with biggest risk to be bore damage.

[dan76n]

Thanks all, I’m really only replacing the Camshaft sensor as a hope to solve it so I’m not waiting until the 7th of May so Ford can look at it. Had they been able to look at it now I wouldn’t have bothered.

[Citroënbender]

Was there a resolution to this problem?

[dan76n]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Was there a resolution to this problem?

Not yet, it's booked in with Ford for this Tuesday. Fingers crossed it's a simple fix and not a major gearbox failure or something costly like that.

[Citroënbender]

So you tried a different sensor as intended, no change?

[dan76n]

Sorry, I thought I posted that. Yes I replaced the sensor but no luck.
I've fully charged the battery last night and just.put it back in the car ready for Tuesday.
Tried cranking it over again and it wanted to start a few times with the higher cranking of the fully charged battery but could quite get there.
Will see how it goes on Tuesday with Ford.

[dan76n]

Just got a call from Ford. Apparently the Timing belt has lost some teeth and is slipping. Quoted $1100 to fix but its not guaranteed to resolve the problem. Could have damaged the valves apparently?
Thinking I might just say farewell to it as I don't want it to cost more than its worth.
Any suggestions?

[Citroënbender]

Re-read Post 9.

If it costs $1200 with labour you’re still getting a cheap fix and a known quantity overall (the car’s condition).

A backyarder could do it for half that with cheap rocker arms, cheap gaskets and a bare belt.

[dan76n]

Originally Posted by Citroënbender

Re-read Post 9.

If it costs $1200 with labour you’re still getting a cheap fix and a known quantity overall (the car’s condition).

A backyarder could do it for half that with cheap rocker arms, cheap gaskets and a bare belt.

Yes I did see that thanks. My concern is if the belt is $1100, any further damage could put it up over 2k. Looking at car sales I'm thinking it's worth around 4k. I'm then concerned if the repairs blow out.

[Citroënbender]

I’d assumed they had done a partial teardown which included the cam covers. That would reveal the failed rocker arms. Honestly, something would need to be seriously wrong for damage to extend beyond that. Because the valves are perpendicular to the piston tops and of stout design, is why stuff breaks in this way.

After throwing out so many water pumps, cam belt idlers and tensioners that were probably perfectly good (belts changed by age, but low mileage) these days I often think a bare belt is sufficient - if the other parts have not been pressure washed, solvent cleaned or allowed to corrode. An informed examination is key.

[dan76n]

Spoke to mechanic today and asked if they had inspected the rocker arms and was told that no they hadn't as there's no need to remove the rocker cover to get to the timing belt and it would just take more time which is a cost to me.
Also said they have never seen rocker arms damaged from a timing belt malfunction, it's normally bent valves.
Going to check something about whether or not the engine is free spining or not and if it is it's less likely to have damaged valves.

[dan76n]

They called me this morning and I asked them to quote me to replace all the rocker arms. They said it wont be that but I said that's fine if its not but please tell me what it would cost if it was. They said they will get back to me. Thinking I might tow it home and see if I can fix it myself and if it looks too hard just try sell as is.
Any ideas what I might get for it as is?

[Citroënbender]

See if there’s a mobile mechanic specialising in Pugs. You could try browsing Aussieflogs but it’s cliquey and may not be overly helpful in real life. You never know, though - might be an invaluable contact found that way.

For DIY: If you don’t have a calibrated wrist I think an inch-pound torque wrench is handy. Skills required include pinning the flywheel and cam, replacing oil seals, maybe working out a way to lock the ring gear teeth if the belt won’t nicely time with the pinning and you need to loosen the crank sprocket bolt.

Happy to try helping with cheapest online parts I’d use myself. It’s a 2.0, not a 2.2?

Depending on the registration remaining you’d likely see $200-$600 “as is” in a cash sale, maybe add $300 if it’s a wagon.

[dan76n]

They came back to me saying rocker arms are $1495 but wouldn't quote Labor as they don't believe that's the problem.
Spoke to some wreckers and I can get $400 for it so I think I'll just take that.
We don't need it anymore as we just replaced it so I think I'd rather cut my losses than try and fix to sell at the risk of the repairs blowing out.

[NZ XR6]

Just curious, do you know if the cambelt been changed?

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