Future of Targa rallies in doubt

[Rallye Sport]

Following on from another tragic death in Tasmania this year Motorsport Australia is putting a hold on targa rallies being sanctioned by them.

"While many competitors acknowledge that motorsport is dangerous, we cannot accept that death is an outcome of competition as has been suggested to us,"

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-...gate/101070122

Although this may not spell the end for Targa Tasmania it could be a very different style of event in the future.

[Franco Cozzo]

Newsflash - Motorsport is dangerous.

[fiestaz]

One day, we will all end up sitting at home not allowed to do anything incase we die…

Sit around waiting or die trying.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by fiestaz

One day, we will all end up sitting at home not allowed to do anything incase we die…

Sit around waiting or die trying.

Sounds exactly like 2020 and 2021 in Victoria

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

Although this may not spell the end for Targa Tasmania it could be a very different style of event in the future.

There'll be a speed limit...

[Rallye Sport]

Originally Posted by b0son

There'll be a speed limit...

Or a regularity / dial your own time style event.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Rallye Sport

Or a regularity / dial your own time style event.

which are very competitive events, I have competed in quite a few 'regularity' race events

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by b0son

There'll be a speed limit...

Pretty sure there were speed limits set after last years 3 fatalities

[GasoLane]

It's a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia don't sanction the Isle of Man TT

[Citroënbender]

Shhh… Nanny Government will ban Aussies from travelling to spectate, and criminalise its viewing.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

It's a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia don't sanction the Isle of Man TT

it is a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia has a competitor in that market, AASA was started by Bob Jane (Calder) Mick Ronke (Winton) and John Tetley (Qld Raceway) to give CAMS/Motorsport Australia some competition. AASA was (last I heard) sanctioning more events than CAMS/Motorsport Australia.

AASA is still around and very busy sanctioning events, they were doing some tarmac rallies in the past, I am not sure if they still do. I guess a check of their website would tell me

EDIT: Yes there is mention of 'tarmac rallies' on their web page

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

it is a good thing that CAMS/Motorsport Australia has a competitor in that market, AASA was started by Bob Jane (Calder) Mick Ronke (Winton) and John Tetley (Qld Raceway) to give CAMS/Motorsport Australia some competition. AASA was (last I heard) sanctioning more events than CAMS/Motorsport Australia.

AASA is still around and very busy sanctioning events, they were doing some tarmac rallies in the past, I am not sure if they still do. I guess a check of their website would tell me

EDIT: Yes there is mention of 'tarmac rallies' on their web page

We run events under both permits but mostly under MA given we have had a fatality on track and their Insurance covered us very well (family of the driver tried to sue all of us even though they signed their waiver). Haven't tested AASA just yet (though I wish we didn't have to test it ever) and waiting to see how someone else goes in the unfortunate event. Not sure if they can do a Targa level event just yet.

Big fan of what AASA do though I do have some reservations on some of their processes (too relaxed with safety at times)! I hate the monopoly that CAMS/MA had. Was about to be part of an executive level at MA but they throw the book at you if you attend a AASA event (as what happened to one person a couple of years ago). Had to step down from there because of that.

The problem Targa had is that they were given recommendations that they didn't put into play. Thats what has come back to bite them.

[Polyal]

I am lost for words for this, at what point do we start fighting back?

True, this style of motorsport is probably one of the more dangerous but everyone signs up for it.

Im not privy to what Targa has and hasnt done and if they had recommendations to follow and didnt after 3 deaths then thats not a good look.

But, where does it end? Hill climbs or any other event not at a dedicated circuit?

[Franco Cozzo]

Anyone who raced at AFF Heathcote (I don't think me and the 14 second + crew count as 'racing' as much as a leisurely Sunday drive ) would have signed the very faded piece of paper that basically says 'if you stack your car and die its not our fault - autograph here please'

I think I might still have the ticket thing they give you which also clearly states 'motorsport in dangerous'.

I think it comes with the territory, if they start legislating away at Targa Tasmania then its the death warrant for it, if anything we don't have enough outlets where you can do these types on events, motorsport itself has become a very niche (and frowned upon) hobby and its not getting any easier for us plebs to get involved.

If you make it too hard and push everyone away I reckon you're just encouraging stuff like 'Northern Skids' to pop up as a result.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Anyone who raced at AFF Heathcote (I don't think me and the 14 second + crew count as 'racing' as much as a leisurely Sunday drive ) would have signed the very faded piece of paper that basically says 'if you stack your car and die its not our fault - autograph here please'

I think I might still have the ticket thing they give you which also clearly states 'motorsport in dangerous'.

I think it comes with the territory, if they start legislating away at Targa Tasmania then its the death warrant for it, if anything we don't have enough outlets where you can do these types on events, motorsport itself has become a very niche (and frowned upon) hobby and its not getting any easier for us plebs to get involved.

If you make it too hard and push everyone away I reckon you're just encouraging stuff like 'Northern Skids' to pop up as a result.

We are about to lose one of our tracks around Sydney due to noise regs. People moved in next to the track them complained about the noise. They are down to just 30 days of trading a year and no more than 90 dB which is a joke. People have moved their exhausts to the other side to prevent tripping the meter.

EVs might get to use the track but there are so few EVs on track at the moment and it would be a sad day if we can't get ICE on that track.

Killing the sport and making SMSP a monopoly in the Sydney area so they can charge whatever fees they want to hire the track or compete at it.

Use to be $80-$110 for a track day there till a certain club took over proceedings... Went to $250 overnight and then to $350. Such a joke.

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[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by kypez

We are about to lose one of our tracks around Sydney due to noise regs. People moved in next to the track them complained about the noise. They are down to just 30 days of trading a year and no more than 90 dB which is a joke. People have moved their exhausts to the other side to prevent tripping the meter.

EVs might get to use the track but there are so few EVs on track at the moment and it would be a sad day if we can't get ICE on that track.

Killing the sport and making SMSP a monopoly in the Sydney area so they can charge whatever fees they want to hire the track or compete at it.

Use to be $80-$110 for a track day there till a certain club took over proceedings... Went to $250 overnight and then to $350. Such a joke.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

Its the same thing with Essendon Airport, Sandown Raceway and Calder Park here in Melbourne, where entire suburbs popped up around them, then the people who buy in there at cheap prices complain about the noise, these people have a vested interest in these things disappearing because the values of their properties will go up if these venues make like a tree and leave.

Thats another hidden consequence of asset/house prices being so high it gets to a point where you start losing entire industries when they're sitting on large commercial properties which can be rezoned as high density residential at a stroke of a pen.

Whoever owns SMSP - whats the value of the property they occupy? Surely they'll get to a point where their extortion prices push people away then they go oh well now we turn into houses.

Who is that cricketer who died from being hit by the ball? Maybe we should stop all cricket games because its 'dangerous'.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Whoever owns SMSP - whats the value of the property they occupy? Surely they'll get to a point where their extortion prices push people away then they go oh well now we turn into houses.



Who is that cricketer who died from being hit by the ball? Maybe we should stop all cricket games because its 'dangerous'.

It's owned by the State Gov but operated by a club who have exclusive rights to the circuit.

Phil Hughes

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[Polyal]

Originally Posted by kypez

We are about to lose one of our tracks around Sydney due to noise regs. People moved in next to the track them complained about the noise. They are down to just 30 days of trading a year and no more than 90 dB which is a joke. People have moved their exhausts to the other side to prevent tripping the meter.

EVs might get to use the track but there are so few EVs on track at the moment and it would be a sad day if we can't get ICE on that track.

Killing the sport and making SMSP a monopoly in the Sydney area so they can charge whatever fees they want to hire the track or compete at it.

Use to be $80-$110 for a track day there till a certain club took over proceedings... Went to $250 overnight and then to $350. Such a joke.

Sent from my Pixel 5 using Tapatalk

To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need.

Car has to pass inspection and I need a helmet, then I am on my way to understeering into a corner and hoping my standard seat belt and airbag help....how does that work.

We are all preaching to the converted here, but, step by step insurance companies and nannies are taking things away. I just dont know how we turn around and say you know what, f you, I am doing it anyway.

I dont know the specifics of these crashes but you can have a soft roll over and still end up dead if you hit the right thing.

This burns me, Targa like any race has had deaths but you look at the history and really its as dangerous as anything else and no amount of money or skill can save you sometimes.

Bah!

Another case of corporate needing to look like they are doing something and its to hard to use logic or facts.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Polyal

To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need.

Car has to pass inspection and I need a helmet, then I am on my way to understeering into a corner and hoping my standard seat belt and airbag help....how does that work.

We are all preaching to the converted here, but, step by step insurance companies and nannies are taking things away. I just dont know how we turn around and say you know what, f you, I am doing it anyway.

I dont know the specifics of these crashes but you can have a soft roll over and still end up dead if you hit the right thing.

This burns me, Targa like any race has had deaths but you look at the history and really its as dangerous as anything else and no amount of money or skill can save you sometimes.

Bah!

Another case of corporate needing to look like they are doing something and its to hard to use logic or facts.

What will happen is it will just happen on the suburban streets, you already see it occurring more and more in Melbourne in particular, we've seen some pretty decent offences happen recently in the past few months and over the past year.

There you go, now you have no fire team, no medical staff, no track facilities and on public roads that aren't closed where there is risk of people minding their own business getting caught up in accidents - all because they incentivised it by making it too hard to do the right thing.

With motorsport, the danger is one of the attractions to it as a participant or a spectator, that feeling of living on the edge of control, or with NASCAR watching someone strap themselves into a brick and do 300km/h around a circle with 50 other people and when one stacks it takes out half the field.

You know as a participant in these things its dangerous and what the risks are, you just make a judgement call on it, let the people who knowingly participate do what they do and make the events as accessible as possible rather than going the other way.

People are going to do something they want regardless, you might as well as give them the best chance and place to do it and make it easy to access, its basic human nature.

[Rallye Sport]

I don't think we'll be seeing any 'outlaw' Targa style events popping up in the industrial areas on a Thursday night
They're just taking a step back at the moment to assess it.

They banned Group B rallying back in the 80's, it didn't stop the sport, they didn't take to the streets, it just evolved into something else.

[hawke]

“To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need”.

I’m doing a practice day at Winton next week for $190, and the remaining race weekend for $350. A few weeks ago, I did a whole day at SMSP for $190.

Where do you pay $350 for a day?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by hawke

“To be fair I am about to sign up to a track day club and its $300 a go, which I actually thought was reasonable considering the next to zero safety gear I need”.

I’m doing a practice day at Winton next week for $190, and the remaining race weekend for $350. A few weeks ago, I did a whole day at SMSP for $190.

Where do you pay $350 for a day?

SMSP standard rate for a track day for non members is typically $350

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[hawke]

“SMSP standard rate for a track day for non members is typically $350”.

I got an email from them this week:

“Prices for 2022 are as follows:

$210 (incl. GST and booking fee), or $180 for ARDC Members (incl. GST and booking fee). See below for full ARDC Member discount details.” less $25 for a discover NSW voucher. I’m not a member.

I’m also doing two day race meeting next month for $390 on the Gardner circuit.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by hawke

“SMSP standard rate for a track day for non members is typically $350”.

I got an email from them this week:

“Prices for 2022 are as follows:

$210 (incl. GST and booking fee), or $180 for ARDC Members (incl. GST and booking fee). See below for full ARDC Member discount details.” less $25 for a discover NSW voucher. I’m not a member.

I’m also doing two day race meeting next month for $390 on the Gardner circuit.

Sounds like a special of some kind. Standard rate has been $350 for years. I know cause I'm at the track almost every other week competing or flagging.

Members get 50% off for 2 track days a year.

You doing the Shannons event end of the month?

Edit: is it a track day or test and tune day? Do you need a MA licence or not? Different rates for those as well and are closer to the numbers you suggested. Used to $130 members and $160 non members

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[ESPJG32]

well, as a competitor in TT 12 times and a holder of a MSA National circuit and National rally license for many years I understand both sides of the discussion, TT was the brain child of John Large{RIP} as a moving cavalcade of classic cars,,,, under the more recent stewardship more modern cars have been allowed to compete and terminal speeds have increased - is that a material reason for these deaths,,, in the real world even a 60km/Hr crash can kill you in the wrong circumstances......
I dont want to cast any judgement on any competitors.....everyone has their own reasons for getting into their car and many of us consider that TT is the pinnacle of that particular type of motorsport.
Yes changes will be made what the event will look like in future we dont know yet but the legacy of John Large should continue, it is a unique event in the world and a test of crew and cars on superlative roads run with the good grace of the Tasmanian public

[b0son]

Originally Posted by ESPJG32

is that a material reason for these deaths,,, in the real world even a 60km/Hr crash can kill you in the wrong circumstances

if the drivers cars were equipped with multi-point harnesses and roll cages, they probably wouldnt though.

the big problem with rallies is you simply cant account for roadside obstacles. its an inherent part of the risk, so if we have a problem with targa, then by extension, we should have a problem with traditional rallies too. oddly, it doesnt seem like those have regular deaths, so the question is, is it problem of the skillset of the drivers in targa? is it a difference in the car/safety?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by b0son

if the drivers cars were equipped with multi-point harnesses and roll cages, they probably wouldnt though.

the big problem with rallies is you simply cant account for roadside obstacles. its an inherent part of the risk, so if we have a problem with targa, then by extension, we should have a problem with traditional rallies too. oddly, it doesnt seem like those have regular deaths, so the question is, is it problem of the skillset of the drivers in targa? is it a difference in the car/safety?

Think the top speeds can be less for a lot of Rally specific cars than Targa. Some of those cars are stupidly fast up top whereas Rally cars are setup for quick acceleration but not necessarily high top end.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by hawke

“SMSP standard rate for a track day for non members is typically $350”.

I got an email from them this week:

“Prices for 2022 are as follows:

$210 (incl. GST and booking fee), or $180 for ARDC Members (incl. GST and booking fee). See below for full ARDC Member discount details.” less $25 for a discover NSW voucher. I’m not a member.

I’m also doing two day race meeting next month for $390 on the Gardner circuit.

Only two tracks in Tassie and they are both the same rate through a motoring club, its not a traditional motorsports club..I could look around but its the first place I found.

IIRC one of the death in targa was when they crashed and went into a river, tragic but it could happen to anyone if they lost it there.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Fake racers still kill themselves, so stop incentivising people to become fake racers by taking away opportunities or putting barriers in the way to be a 'real racer'.

Its also never been to the extent it happens now in Melbourne, the rules are harsher than ever but its still happening, maybe there's a reason for it.

Hoons will still be hoons, but they also have very little opportunity to take it off the street in melbourne. Heathcoate is the only real option and it's not exactly well located for the masses.

Melbourne needs a proper motorsport venue.

[lra]

Surfing = sharks. Bushwalking = getting lost and dehydration. Abseiling = falling. Football / boxing = concussion / dementia. Defence force = getting shot.

In case people have forgotten already, Peter Brock was killed during a Targa rally.
There are just so many things to go wrong with this type of motor sport, trees, ditches, kangaroos. Entrants should be aware of these dangers and contend with them.
Comes under the heading of life choices.