Another 86 Aussie workers loose to Asia.

[Outbackjack]

When will this end. Soon there will be no-one in Australia left with a job. (except our illustrious political leaders of course.) Then who will be buying anything, let alone a car!!!!! This country is slowly self dectructing. We had all better go buy a shoe polishing box, a black bow tie, and learn 6 or 7 asian languages!!!

EIGHTY-six workers at Tenneco Automotive will lose their jobs in a further blow to Australia's troubled car component industry.

Tenneco today said the Adelaide based workers would lose their jobs because a new vehicle manufacturer had opted to source shock absorbers from Asia.

[banarcus]

Hmm I guess you could blame GM for that one, with the blowout development costs of the zeta.

[Cobra]

Apparantly Toyota had a big part to play in it all. Gee hasn't Adelaide copped a fair brunt of job losses? God help us if Mitsu shut down!

[Wokkas]

It's going to hit us all in the engineering and/or mechanical trades here in Adelaide in some way. Good old free trade, eh.


BRING BACK TARRIFFS.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by Cobra

Apparantly Toyota had a big part to play in it all. Gee hasn't Adelaide copped a fair brunt of job losses? God help us if Mitsu shut down!

The sand in the hour glass is coming to the end Cobra.

Tenneco's life is coming to an end in this country due to the fact that when the car market was Ford/Holden dominated it was easy to tool up due to the volume combined with the OE business and aftermarket.

The car market has changed considerebly thanks to the $12000 Hyundai Excell and others have followed. Imported cars are coming in left right and centre local manufacturer's in many country's is having the same issues.

In short it's not entirely the Aust Gov's fault, they do not control what large corporations decide to do.

[Papa Smurf]

Yea, look what happened to Newcastle? :(

[Dave_au]

Tariffs dont work for the good of the nation.

It's never pretty when an employer has to close their doors, but with the current unemployment levels, these guys shouldn't have too much trouble finding something else.

[Paris Hilton]

If they're willing to do the same for cheaper, why the hell would they not outsource?

[MO]

One day those of you that agree with the new IR laws will wish you had voted that govt out of office and voted the alternative in....why...simple because your quality of life and income, which is what give you your quality of life are about to drop to one third of what you used to earn.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

One day those of you that agree with the new IR laws will wish you had voted that govt out of office and voted the alternative in....why...simple because your quality of life and income, which is what give you your quality of life are about to drop to one third of what you used to earn.

Hey John, Im sure we dont need to go "here" again - but I would just point out that this is a blatant juxtapositioning of Work choices legislation and the inevitable outsourcing of labour to other countries. Not that i could criticise you or any other unionist for such opportunistic behaviour - after all, it's how the politicla game is played.

But even under the most collectivised system - we will still lose jobs to other countries who can do it cheaper. YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AGAINST GLOBALISATION and it has NOTHING at all to do with the IR system we have in place.

Do you really think that Beazley's commitment to abolish AWAs is going to stop jobs from going overseas? For the record - does anyone believe this?

If anything, the flexibility afforded to employers under the new system may allow selective redundancies where a few people are let go... instead of the whole company going under because the employer was required to maintain unsustainable staff levels.

Now that i think of it... the last job I had (about 3 years ago now) i (and everyone i worked with) was fired at the drop of a hat when the company was bought by an Italian mob. IIRC my employment arrangement was under a CA developed between the union and the employer.

"thats business, and it will continue to happen"

I certainly hope not - because if it does where does that leave Australia.

If you completly get rid of all manufacturing in Australia, I think we will be well on our way to becoming a 3 world country.

We will develop - just not at the rate an emerging economy develops at. Australians all seem to be scared shyteless that our jobs are under siege from asian nations... yet what they are going through at the moment is something that EVERY country goes through. How do you think countries like ours came to be? (admittedly we had a head start leveraging off our british heritage).

When a country "emerges" - the others around it do not fall back into a 3rd world status. This is about those countries coming into the first world - just like us. A right that they have.

After time, their workforce will collectivise. They will form unions, they will start to protect their own markets, their living standards will increase etc etc. All of a sudden, you're paying the same for a job there as you would here and it becomes pointless. Its nike syndrome - they exploit a country until they smarten up, then you move somewhere else... this is not a new concept.

Your beef rests with private industry. It's inherent to a capitalist society.

"Well, the fat cats cant treat us like that!" I hear you say. Well... your superannuation returns dont generate themselves.

[blutura]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

Hey John, Im sure we dont need to go "here" again - but I would just point out that this is a blatant juxtapositioning of Work choices legislation and the inevitable outsourcing of labour to other countries. Not that i could criticise you or any other unionist for such opportunistic behaviour - after all, it's how the politicla game is played.

But even under the most collectivised system - we will still lose jobs to other countries who can do it cheaper. YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE AGAINST GLOBALISATION and it has NOTHING at all to do with the IR system we have in place.

Do you really think that Beazley's commitment to abolish AWAs is going to stop jobs from going overseas? For the record - does anyone believe this?

If anything, the flexibility afforded to employers under the new system may allow selective redundancies where a few people are let go... instead of the whole company going under because the employer was required to maintain unsustainable staff levels.

Now that i think of it... the last job I had (about 3 years ago now) i (and everyone i worked with) was fired at the drop of a hat when the company was bought by an Italian mob. IIRC my employment arrangement was under a CA developed between the union and the employer.



We will develop - just not at the rate an emerging economy develops at. Australians all seem to be scared shyteless that our jobs are under siege from asian nations... yet what they are going through at the moment is something that EVERY country goes through. How do you think countries like ours came to be? (admittedly we had a head start leveraging off our british heritage).

When a country "emerges" - the others around it do not fall back into a 3rd world status. This is about those countries coming into the first world - just like us. A right that they have.

After time, their workforce will collectivise. They will form unions, they will start to protect their own markets, their living standards will increase etc etc. All of a sudden, you're paying the same for a job there as you would here and it becomes pointless. Its nike syndrome - they exploit a country until they smarten up, then you move somewhere else... this is not a new concept.

Your beef rests with private industry. It's inherent to a capitalist society.

"Well, the fat cats cant treat us like that!" I hear you say. Well... your superannuation returns dont generate themselves.

Could not have said it better myself

Post of the day!

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

One day those of you that agree with the new IR laws will wish you had voted that govt out of office and voted the alternative in....why...simple because your quality of life and income, which is what give you your quality of life are about to drop to one third of what you used to earn.

Your posts are a fantastic form of comic relief.

1/3rd hey reduction in average gross wages. Intresting

Figures are great things. They can either be used by people to backup a strong and just arguement, or they can be used in such a way that provides the general public with a good chance to have a chuckle at somones expense. I'll let you guess which group you are in.

[MNM96]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

One day those of you that agree with the new IR laws will wish you had voted that govt out of office and voted the alternative in....why...simple because your quality of life and income, which is what give you your quality of life are about to drop to one third of what you used to earn.

Gee, then we might be HALF as bad as when we lost our homes because interest rates were 19%, and "The Worlds greatest Treasurer" brought on "the resession we had to have"!

John, you and me have met, and I like you! Accept for the old person smell. But we will have to agree to disagree here. I work hard and give value to my employer, therefore I am still employed and earn good money. If stih hits fan, I fed, educated, housed, clothed and entertained me and mine before, and will after!

I think you should come up here to Gladstone and stay for a few days, and we can discuss this mater over a few beer and perhaps a nice bottle of 60 yo port! What says you?

[MO]

Originally Posted by MNM96

Gee, then we might be HALF as bad as when we lost our homes because interest rates were 19%, and "The Worlds greatest Treasurer" brought on "the resession we had to have"!

John, you and me have met, and I like you! Accept for the old person smell. But we will have to agree to disagree here. I work hard and give value to my employer, therefore I am still employed and earn good money. If stih hits fan, I fed, educated, housed, clothed and entertained me and mine before, and will after!

I think you should come up here to Gladstone and stay for a few days, and we can discuss this mater over a few beer and perhaps a nice bottle of 60 yo port! What says you?

Sounds like a damn fine idea to me....now about this old person smell....yes we will agree to disagree and I don't mind one bit.

My main concern as far as the new IR laws goes is not for those that can negotiate(sp) but for the great number of employees who have limited education and lack of confidence to even begin to negotiate,it is these who will get left behind and they to have responsibilities family,mortgage..etc.

And I gave good value to my employer when I was working even being the union rep.

Anyway that aside I have a few things to do for about the next 2/3 months but after that well just might have to take up that 60 yr old port offer.

[MNM96]

Sorry about the big font size! Learning how to personalize my posts.

PS Johnny Mac, the port aint getting younger, but is getting better!!

[MO]

Originally Posted by MNM96

Sorry about the big font size! Learning how to personalize my posts.

PS Johnny Mac, the port aint getting younger, but is getting better!!

I have just had approval for travel ...so give me about the 2/3 months and I will come and visit.

[BA GT-HO]

I work in the manufacturing industry and some of our machines have already left for China 1 - 2 years ago and more are going soon. But who can blame the company? Why pay an Aussie $21.20 an hour when you can pay a Chinese person $20 a day for bascially the same product..?

Personally I am glad Howard is still in, but I don't agree with some of his policies. But what alternative did we have?

Latham?! The man's a nutter!

Oh and the new IR laws are being blown wayyyyyyy out of proportian by some union people, and before you ask, yes I am a member of the AMWU.

[FTE217]

Originally Posted by BA GT-HO

I work in the manufacturing industry and some of our machines have already left for China 1 - 2 years ago and more are going soon. But who can blame the company? Why pay an Aussie $21.20 an hour when you can pay a Chinese person $20 a day for bascially the same product..?

Personally I am glad Howard is still in, but I don't agree with some of his policies. But what alternative did we have?

Latham?! The man's a nutter!

Oh and the new IR laws are being blown wayyyyyyy out of proportian by some union people, and before you ask, yes I am a member of the AMWU.

Well said matey, if the other crowd ever get in it will be like whats happens in every 3-4 out of 5 marriages....a great honeymoon then they woke up !! :togo:

[Polyal]

Guys I dont know why you hark up about this all the time, thats business, and it will continue to happen.

Im sure some Asian (or whoever) countries arn't pleased that Ford Oz are doing some global development, but that because currently we do it well.

[Stealth00]

"thats business, and it will continue to happen"

I certainly hope not - because if it does where does that leave Australia.

If you completly get rid of all manufacturing in Australia, I think we will be well on our way to becoming a 3 world country.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Stealth00

"thats business, and it will continue to happen"

I certainly hope not - because if it does where does that leave Australia.

If you completly get rid of all manufacturing in Australia, I think we will be well on our way to becoming a 3 world country.

Disagree, this is just a natural evolution of business. Obviously Tenneco were not efficient, competitive, or were poorly managed.

The fact of the matter is that some of these businesses should never have been in business in the first place at the end of the day, and resources and manpower could be better used elsewhere, at what we're good at as a country.

Furthermore, Tenneco is at the bottom end of the supply chain for motor vehicle manufacturing, it's impact of leaving the market in the grand scheme of things isnt necessrily going to take other companies with it.

At the other end of the spectrum you have Mitsubishi Motors Australia Limited, where if they were to close their doors, they would have a significant flow on impact to many of their suppliers and even to the other three manufacturers.

So I guess in the big scheme of government grants, they need to work out what assistance will make the best impact, but at the end of the day you may still be flogging a dead horse. Mitsubishi could have the potential to pull a rabbit out of the hat, if Japan lets them.

[MO]

To all of you that replied in the negative to my post......I will not come back soon and say told you so......I promise....hahahahahahahahha

[Outbackjack]

What amazes me about this whole IR thing is the number of people that reckon that it is a good thing that their fellow Aussies get thrown onto the scrap heap or at best get a job stacking shelves at Coles...... Of course this is for the good of the country in their eyes. But, they are not imune. Once corporate bodies and share holders get a sniff of extra profits, and damn the human side of bussiness, EVERYONE is at risk. But of course the above mentioned people will be ecstatically happy to go stack shelves at night. The only people that seem at ease with these new laws are the ones that think they are above them. Elitism I think it is called. This so called skilled worker shortage and mineral boom will not last forever. But it is possible that these laws will. But I hope not.

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

What amazes me about this whole IR thing is the number of people that reckon that it is a good thing that their fellow Aussies get thrown onto the scrap heap or at best get a job stacking shelves at Coles......

What amazes me is the melodramatic garbage that some people come up with in order to try and demonstrate a point. Im sorry - but catch phrases like "Aussies getting thrown on the scrap heap" sounds like something a Today Tonight producer would come up with.

It's also a petty way of putting words into someone's mouth. I am not "for" australians losing their jobs. But you know what - I dont think that's what IR reform is about. But you conclude that someone who is FOR the reforms is AGAINST their "fellow aussies". Not so. And like i said - putting words into someone's mouth.

The only people that seem at ease with these new laws are the ones that think they are above them. Elitism I think it is called.

No - that's called speculation - and its on your behalf.

But it's all off topic anyways

[Outbackjack]

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

What amazes me is the melodramatic garbage that some people come up with in order to try and demonstrate a point. Im sorry - but catch phrases like "Aussies getting thrown on the scrap heap" sounds like something a Today Tonight producer would come up with.

It's also a petty way of putting words into someone's mouth. I am not "for" australians losing their jobs. But you know what - I dont think that's what IR reform is about. But you conclude that someone who is FOR the reforms is AGAINST their "fellow aussies". Not so. And like i said - putting words into someone's mouth.



No - that's called speculation - and its on your behalf.

But it's all off topic anyways

Funny thing is, all the so called benifits that this legislation is meant to bring is all speculation of the most ignorant type. I work with hundreds of Anmericans that have laboured under similar laws for years now. They are looking at what we are doing here and saying that what is happening in the states is not pretty, and we are hell bent on achieving the same results. This is not speculation. This is from intelligent people that have experienced these type of laws. That is why I am so anti these type of changes that take away conditions, not secure or provide them.

The speculation that these laws are good is just that, speculation. Why dont all the people that think these laws are going to bring security and prosperity to the Australian worker do some meaningfull research. Have a look at the conditions a large number of Americans work under, then come back and tell us how much better we are all going to be.

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The speculation that these laws are good is just that, speculation.

And speculation that the laws are bad is what? :

[4.9 EF Futura]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Why dont all the people that think these laws are going to bring security and prosperity to the Australian worker do some meaningfull research

This is the point which i guess im getting at. The reforms make perfect sense to me in an economics perspective.

I can hear your laughter from here. But bear with me.

I wont bore the members of the forum to death yet again by going into the economic principles which demonstrate why WAGES need to be closely linked to PRODUCTIVITY. But i'll state that this is what i base my opinion on.

Do you know why the american working conditions are so poor? Because they lack productivity. They operate under a system which rewards improved productivity... and on the converse side, penalises poor productivity.

But even that is irrelevant. Because we're not Americans and this is not Amercia. I think the differences between our two countries are far too great(socially/philosophically - we're a nanny state compared to the US, economically - our industries, resources etc are geared completely differently) to make any meaningful conclusions for Australia based on the US experience.

A centralised wage system effectively protects an unproductive worker - whilst at the same time, HINDERS a productive worker. It may be against your collective philosophy - but at the end of the day, we're not all equal. Some people can lay more bricks per hour than others. Some people can sell more phones per day than others. We now have an IR system which is DYNAMIC enough to cope with this - instead of saying 'righto - you both get $x per hour'.

[Walkinshaw]

Originally Posted by John McMaster

To all of you that replied in the negative to my post......I will not come back soon and say told you so......I promise....hahahahahahahahha

Why do i not believe you?

[WASP]

At the risk of upset setting a few I’ll just say this. As an employer the trends of employment opportunities going off shore does not surprise me. With generation Y & X particularly in Australia, excessive wages, package requests and what I consider to an reasonably expectation of senior job title without the runs on the board to back it up becomes very tiring and non viable as a business proposition. I employed my first Indian Application developer the other day and have to say that he’s the first employee in a long time that was actually grateful for the job, not completely wage driven and willing to work his way to the top rather than expecting it handed to him without having to prove his capability first.

This bothers me to no end that I can’t find local talent with the same attitude and work ethics. I’m sure there are a few out there, but it’s like finding a needle in a haystack.

I see the future of my business being largely based on team of capable Senior Managers, Art Directors and IT Staff coordinating a global rather than local team of designers and programmers etc to deliver solutions to our clients. Finding cost effective, hard working and ethical labour in this country (in my industry anyway) is fast becoming un realistic and non viable from a business perspective.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by CDAA

At the risk of upset setting a few I’ll just say this. As an employer the trends of employment opportunities going off shore does not surprise me. With generation Y & X particularly in Australia, excessive wages, package requests and what I consider to an reasonably expectation of senior job title without the runs on the board to back it up becomes very tiring and non viable as a business proposition. I employed my first Indian Application developer the other day and have to say that he’s the first employee in a long time that was actually grateful for the job, not completely wage driven and willing to work his way to the top rather than expecting it handed to him without having to prove his capability first.

This bothers me to no end that I can’t find local talent with the same attitude and work ethics. I’m sure there are a few out there, but it’s like finding a needle in a haystack.

I see the future of my business being largely based on team of capable Senior Managers, Art Directors and IT Staff coordinating a global rather than local team of designers and programmers etc to deliver solutions to our clients. Finding cost effective, hard working and ethical labour in this country (in my industry anyway) is fast becoming un realistic and non viable from a business perspective.

I too am an employer, basically in engineering & machining. I have had positions vacant here for months (bordering on years).. There seems to be a complete lack of QUALITY Fitter/Machinists with CNC & CAD skills in this country! With all these manufacturing & auto component industries closing, you'd think this the opposite?... Just where are these redundant tradesmen going?.. They can't ALL be buying Jim's mowing franchises!
My last 4 applicants have been Indian or Sri Lankin, who have resumes that would embarrass Einstein... Diplomas of this, diplomas of that..
Up until now, I have always gone for fellow Australians... Now, before anyone starts, this ISN'T a racial thing.. It's more in keeping a harmonious factory floor, And at the end of the day.. I am paying their wage so surely I can chose who I employ.
However, the time is rapidly approaching when I HAVE to give one of these guys a go. And CDAA's comments about his Indian application developer reinforces my views...
Too many nowadays still have the "world owes them a living" approach to their employment. It all seems to be about what will YOU give ME, rather than what I can offer you as an employee!
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