Is DSG auto or manual?

[flappist]

DSG, Direct Shift Gearbox (Direkt Schalt Getriebe) seems to be the next big thing in transmission technology.

It is described as a manual transmission but does not have a clutch pedal.

So can you legally drive one with an auto license?

In QLD when the BA first came out there was a somewhat celebrated case where driver with an auto only license was charged with unlicensed driving because his auto XR6 had a "manual mode".

The magistrate threw it out fortunately and a short time afterwards a clarification was released by QPOL that "manual" means "has clutch pedal".
But this only applies to QLD as each state has its own rules.

So outside QLD is DSG auto or manual for the purpose of licensing?

[Mr Hardware]

The difference in my mind between if a car is a manual or auto is the clutch pedal.

In light commercials the automated manual is most definitely classed as an auto, i don't see how a DSG should be any different.

[jpd80]

A compulsory part of a manual License test is proving a driver can properly operate a manual clutch.
In the USA, Ford is using the Powershift DSG gearbox in Fiesta to replace the auto transmission.

[DJM83]

No clutch = Automatic

[mik]

Originally Posted by DJM83

No clutch = Automatic

many trucks these days have auto`s in them , but a clutch is still used on the take off and to stop at the lights only, well they function like an auto but are really a manual constant mesh gearbox with a computer that operates the selectors, some even blip between changes, is there a comparison i wonder.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by mik

many trucks these days have auto`s in them , but a clutch is still used on the take off and to stop at the lights only, well they function like an auto but are really a manual constant mesh gearbox with a computer that operates the selectors, some even blip between changes, is there a comparison i wonder.

And to complicate things even more, some early Isuzu N series light trucks didn't have a clutch pedal, but required the operator to change gears manually with a normal gear stick. These gear boxes use the existing main section as seen in conventional 5/6 speeds, but used a fluid coupling similar to a torque convertor to act as a clutch.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by DJM83

No clutch = Automatic

Agreed.

[04redxr8]

Originally Posted by flappist

In QLD when the BA first came out there was a somewhat celebrated case where driver with an auto only license was charged with unlicensed driving because his auto XR6 had a "manual mode".

The magistrate threw it out fortunately and a short time afterwards a clarification was released by QPOL that "manual" means "has clutch pedal".
But this only applies to QLD as each state has its own rules.

So outside QLD is DSG auto or manual for the purpose of licensing?

I have identified the problem for you.

The Police officer should have been suspended for wasting tax payer money on such a frivolous and pathetic attempted charge.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

I have identified the problem for you.

The Police officer should have been suspended for wasting tax payer money on such a frivolous and pathetic attempted charge.

Sent to Quilpie to count sheep dags...

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by flappist

In QLD when the BA first came out there was a somewhat celebrated case where driver with an auto only license was charged with unlicensed driving because his auto XR6 had a "manual mode".

Donut King must have been out of his/her favorite that day, what a stupid charge.

DSG is Auto in Vic im 99.999% sure.

[Veefore]

Does the transmission change ratio's on its own? If so it is automatic. If it needs to be changed by the driver then it is manual. Clutch pedal becomes irrelevant in my opinion.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Veefore

Does the transmission change ratio's on its own? If so it is automatic. If it needs to be changed by the driver then it is manual. Clutch pedal becomes irrelevant in my opinion.

So what you are saying is that it should be illegal for a driver with an auto only license to drive a ION or ZF equipped Falcon as it has a "manual mode".

[block58]

Originally Posted by Veefore

If it needs to be changed by the driver...

Originally Posted by flappist

So what you are saying is that it should be illegal for a driver with an auto only license to drive a ION or ZF equipped Falcon as it has a "manual mode".

The gears don't need to be changed by the driver on those gearboxes. Even in manual mode they don't need to be changed by the driver.
By Veefore's logic only a car that has no ability to change gears by itself at all would be considered a manual.

[Phyber]

Originally Posted by block58

The gears don't need to be changed by the driver on those gearboxes. Even in manual mode they don't need to be changed by the driver.

...except if you're in manual mode on the ZF, it won't change up gears, only down to prevent labouring/stalling. You can hit the limiter all day long, or until something snaps anyway

[fmc351]

Originally Posted by flappist

So what you are saying is that it should be illegal for a driver with an auto only license to drive a ION or ZF equipped Falcon as it has a "manual mode".

To split hairs, maybe its just illegal for an auto licenced driver to use manual mode.

If it cant be automatically shifted, it is technically a manual box, a clutchless manual. Legally, I think its going to a tricky area. I think it will come down to something along the lines of being able to come to a stop without using a clutch.

[ebxr8240]

Hmm ?? It's a worry !!!
An auto in manual mode is still an auto trans.. Check compliance or VIN plate...

Its not like you can put a manual in auto mode....

[T3man]

It is the clutch pedal that determines whether the car is manual or automatic, not the type of gearbox nor the operating modes of the gearbox. There is no court in the land that would ever find otherwise.

DSG manual gearbox does not alter the fact that the car for all intents and purposes is an "automatic" for licensing purposes.

[Franco Cozzo]

If the car has a clutch pedal = manual.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

If the car has a clutch pedal = manual.

Yes this is the law in QLD.

I was actually asking what was the law in other states and territories rather than what peoples personal opinions of what the law should be.

e.g. QLD person with auto licence drives DSG interstate, either QLD registered or other state registered. Is this legal?

This question is in a similar vein to P plater from V8 legal state driving V8 in non legal state.

[SteveJH]

And on those lines, since once you are off your Red P's in NSW there is no such thing as an 'auto' or 'manual' license.

If you have a Qld 'auto' license, can you drive a manual in NSW?

[Ross-b]

Originally Posted by SteveJH

And on those lines, since once you are off your Red P's in NSW there is no such thing as an 'auto' or 'manual' license.

If you have a Qld 'auto' license, can you drive a manual in NSW?

i dont know about QLD but the NSW license will state the restriction. therefor no matter where you are driving you still have that restriction


@Jim Goose
if you are talking about the DSG gearbox
correct the gearbox is considered manual
the car itself is auto therefor no restriction should be placed

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by flappist

e.g. QLD person with auto licence drives DSG interstate, either QLD registered or other state registered. Is this legal?

This question is in a similar vein to P plater from V8 legal state driving V8 in non legal state.

I belive in both cases you have to obey your states rules and regs, regardless of what state you are in.

I know when i was driving in Vic on my WA licenced P's the VicPolice could do squat about my choice of car, from their mouth aswell not just an assumption on my behalf.

[GTpilot]

Originally Posted by flappist

So outside QLD is DSG auto or manual for the purpose of licensing?

umm, semi-auto ????

Clutch pedal or not, in my mind manual means "do it yourself" so if something like a ZF would be an automatic, but with a "manual" gear shift mode but Auto clutch.... Thus Semi-Auto. lol, or Semi-manual if you like.

I'd think DSG would be the same. As for laws and licensing, well we all know thats anyones guess depending on what day of the week it is.

EDIT: BTW Flappist, wheres the poll??

[Ross-b]

simple as
the gearbox is manual but the car is automatic

the person has a car license so as long as the CAR is auto then no problem

there really shouldn't even be a discussion

if the vehical can change the gears by itself

and if the operator DOSEN'T need to push on a clutch or select neutral to stop (to prevent the engine from stalling)

then the car is auto

even in a manual mode an auto gear box will not stall when u come to a stop

[Jim Goose]

Id say the laws would need to be changed as its not keeping up with technology.

An auto transmission as we know it runs a torque convertor.

A manual runs a clutch or series of clutches.

The DSG runs 2 clutch packs which are computer controlled, thus it gets rid of the clutch pedal. (it has no torque convertor)

It can be used in manual select mode or in auto mode.

In reality you can also change gears in a manual without the use of the clutch, a somewhat lost art to some.

As was stated it comes down to the compliance plate on the car as to weather the manufacturer considers it an auto or manual.

[Ross-b]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Id say the laws would need to be changed as its not keeping up with technology.

An auto transmission as we know it runs a torque convertor.

A manual runs a clutch or series of clutches.

The DSG runs 2 clutch packs which are computer controlled, thus it gets rid of the clutch pedal. (it has no torque convertor)

It can be used in manual select mode or in auto mode.

In reality you can also change gears in a manual without the use of the clutch, a somewhat lost art to some.

As was stated it comes down to the compliance plate on the car as to weather the manufacturer considers it an auto or manual.

i think common sense tells us that this dosnt make a car automatic...
besides
a clutch is still needed to stopped the car with the engine running

[Bad Bird]

I call it a semi-manual to annoy the auto fanboys. But I would generally class it either on its own, or as an automatic gearbox.

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by Ross-b

i think common sense tells us that this dosnt make a car automatic...
besides
a clutch is still needed to stopped the car with the engine running

Yes but the manufacturer of the box calls its a manual....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Id say the laws would need to be changed as its not keeping up with technology.

An auto transmission as we know it runs a torque convertor.

A manual runs a clutch or series of clutches.

The DSG runs 2 clutch packs which are computer controlled, thus it gets rid of the clutch pedal. (it has no torque convertor)

It can be used in manual select mode or in auto mode.

In reality you can also change gears in a manual without the use of the clutch, a somewhat lost art to some.

As was stated it comes down to the compliance plate on the car as to weather the manufacturer considers it an auto or manual.

A DSG runs two layshafts which enables gear changes under power,
the engine is connected to the gearbox by either a wet or dry centrifugal clutch.
Fiesta has dry clutch Powershift, Diesel Focus has wet clutch Powershift.

Pretty sure a powershift box can be put in D and driven like an auto box.

[GTP-814]

pre DSG, every auto had
D
3
2
1
so anyone could hold in gear & change like a mnanual if they wanted