Economy

[ford man xf]

Do many people here have a share portfolio? I have been thinking about buying into the share market for a while, even if is a small investment to start with, but the market is so shaky at the moment, I know the resources is usually a save bet, but the way the world economy is going at the moment I feel almost insane taking the plunge.

I have been reading a bit into the world economy, it's interesting that some people at work will say to me that Australia dictates it's own economic stability, but these people couldn't be further from the truth, with the happenings around the world especially in Europe things are not looking good, what are other peoples thoughts, I had a read of this:

Shares plunge on fears Italy, Spain are in trouble

Global stocks took another pounding Tuesday, while borrowing costs for Spain and Italy spiked higher as investors worried that Europe's debt crisis could infect the continent's larger economies.

The premiums demanded by investors to lend to Rome and Madrid have soared in recent days while eurozone finance ministers have dithered over the shape and size of Greece's next bailout.

The lack of a clear plan for Greece -- and the growing specter that it might be allowed to temporarily default -- has put the eurozone's third- and fourth-largest economies in the spotlight.

Both countries are substantially indebted, and the yields, or interest rates, demanded on their bonds keeps rising, and that only worsens their debt loads. The spread between the yield on Italian 10-year bonds and the benchmark German ones hit 3.1 percent, while Spain's rose to 3.42 percent.

The crisis has raised questions about the future of the euro, and the currency plunged against the dollar Tuesday. By early afternoon, the euro was down another 0.9 percent on the day to $1.3905.

"It's yet again the same old story dominating currency markets today, with the European sovereign debt crisis and fears of contagion causing currency and equity markets to slump. The silence is deafening over a resolution to Greece's current issues," said James Hughes, an analyst from Alpari. "The risk of contagion is again the major talking point with both Spain and Italy being the front runners in the race for the next bailout."

In Europe, France's CAC-40 dove 2.4 percent to 3,718, while Germany's DAX fell 2.1 percent to 7,077. The FTSE index of leading British shares was down 1.4 percent at 5,845.

Italy is in the middle of the current contagion fears and its markets are experiencing extremely volatile trading Tuesday. Shares on the main Milan stock exchange rebounded following an earlier 4 percent slump, when Finance Minister Giulio Tremonti announced plans to accelerate the country's austerity measures. Italy's FTSE MIB was down 0.7 percent only at 18,159.

U.S. shares are also poised for a retreat at the open as they respond to European contagion fears. Dow futures were down 0.7 percent at 12,402, while S&P futures fell 1 percent to 1,306.

But the U.S. markets will also be looking Tuesday for any sign from the Federal Reserve on whether it will undertake more stimulus measures following a run of soft economic data, which culminated in a very weak U.S. jobs report last week.

"Friday's payroll number may have dented sentiment somewhat, but many will be hoping that a positive earnings season will give both the markets and the economy the kick start it needs," said Hughes.

Both the fears that Europe's crisis is spreading and the American economy is dragging have hit Asia hard this week. Earlier, Hong Kong's Hang Seng slid 3.1 percent to 21,663, South Korea's Kospi retreated 2.2 percent to 2,110 and the Shanghai Composite Index lost 1.7 percent to 2,755.

Japan's Nikkei 225 stock average shed 1.4 percent to close at 9,926. Japan's central bank cut its growth estimate for the fiscal year ending March 2012 to 0.4 percent from 0.6 percent. That downgrade is largely a result of the March earthquake and tsunami disasters.

News that the global economy is still struggling dragged oil prices lower.

Benchmark oil for August delivery was down 0.9 percent to $94.28 a barrel in electronic trading on the New York Mercantile Exchange.

Waaaayyy to much credit, it's almost unbelievable, we have all heard of the saying "you have to spend money to make money" but it's insane borrowing!

[ford man xf]

This is the scary one:

America in Weakest Economic Recovery Since 1948, New Report Documents
Wednesday, July 13, 2011
By Patrick Ryan


(AP Photo/Patrick Semansky)

(CNSNews.com) -- The United States is facing the weakest economic recovery in the post-World War II era -- the worst in over 62 years -- and this is happening despite the fact that the recession officially ended in June 2009, according to a new report from the Heritage Foundation, a conservative think tank.

The Bureau of Labor Statistics (BLS) reported a net growth of only 18,000 jobs in June, and the unemployment rate reached 9.2 percent.

Using data from the BLS, the Heritage Foundation’s July 5 report documented that the current recovery is “the weakest recovery of the post-World War II era.”

“The recession officially ended in June 2009, but payroll employment remains 6.9 million jobs below its December 2007 peak,” states the report. “The average unemployed worker has been without work for 39.7 weeks (nine months) -- the longest since the government began keeping track in 1948.”

The report explained that “[i]n past recessions, employment fully recovered within two to three years. As of May 2011 – three-and-a-half years after the recession’s onset -- payroll employment remains 5 percent below pre-recession levels. Unemployment stands at 9.1 percent.”

The unemployment rate creeped up to 9.2 in June. The real unemployment rate hit 16. 2 percent, affecting more than 25 million Americans. (The “real” unemployment rate is technically a combination of three measures of unemployment: the unemployment rate, the number of people working part-time who want full-time work, and the number of people “marginally attached” to the workforce.)

The last weakest economic recovery occurred after the recession of 2001, which faced employment rates of 1 percent below pre-recession levels 41 months after the start of the recession.



President Barack Obama, accompanied by Nancy Pelosi of Calif., in the Capitol Rotunda on Wednesday, Oct. 28, 2009. (AP Photo/Alex Brandon)
According to the Heritage report, “[e]conomists estimate that the ‘natural rate of unemployment’ in the U.S. economy is 5.2 percent.”

Because of the current sluggish recovery, the return to a “natural rate of unemployment” will take even longer, based on previous economic expansions. From 2003-2007, for example, “employers added an average of 176,000 jobs per month.” Based on this rate, “unemployment will not return to normal rates until January 2018.”

The Congressional Budget Office expects the economy to recover at approximately the same rate as the 2003-2007 period, according to the report.

Heritage further reported, “The economy needs to add between 100,000 and 125,000 jobs per month to keep pace with population growth. Unemployment will rise if employers consistently create fewer jobs than this.

“Over the past year, employment has grown by an average of just 122,000 jobs per month. If job growth continues at this rate, then the unemployment rate in January 2021 would stand at 7.4 percent. At the current rate of recovery, high unemployment will become the new normal.”

Source: http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/...ecovery-1948-n

If not enough new jobs are being created and the US population keeps on increasing how many more people can live off dole payments? China needs America and America needs China, and how does this effect Australia, China buys all the resources of Australia, this process is what keeps Australias econmy steady and stable, which brings me back to the stockmarket does anyone see the resources sector slipping in the near future, or buy into this sector of the market?

[ford man xf]

The US may loose its AAA credit rating, things are slowly starting to take a turn for the worse.

Moody's warns it may downgrade U.S. credit rating

WASHINGTON - Moody's Investors Service on Wednesday threatened to lower the United States' credit rating, saying there is a small but rising risk that the government will default on its debt.

The credit rating agency said it will review the U.S. government's triple-A bond rating because the White House and Congress are running out of time to raise America's $14.3 trillion borrowing limit and avoid a default.

The government reached its borrowing limit in May. Treasury says the government will default on its debt if the limit is not raised by Aug. 2.

A downgrade would raise interest rates on U.S. treasury bonds, increasing the interest paid by U.S. taxpayers. It would also push up rates for mortgages, car loans and other debts, which are linked to Treasury rates.

Moody's had warned in June that it would take this step if President Barack Obama and Republican lawmakers failed to make progress on an agreement by mid-July. The other credit ratings agencies, Standard & Poor's and Fitch, have said they may make similar moves.

Some Republican lawmakers have expressed skepticism that failing to raise the limit would have a major impact.

But Moody's provided a stark assessment: "An actual default, regardless of duration, would fundamentally alter Moody's assessment of the timeliness of future payments."

In short, that means the U.S. would lose its top rating, the agency said. Because a default would likely be short-lived, Moody's said it would likely downgrade U.S. debt to double-A. That is the second-highest of nine rankings under Moody's system.

And Moody's warned that the U.S. wouldn't regain its triple-A rating right away if lawmakers raised the borrowing limit after a short-lived default. The agency said it would leave the rating unchanged for the "near term," although it didn't say how long that would be.

Moody's has never given the U.S. government anything lower than its top rating since it began evaluating the country's debt in 1917.

Moody's acknowledged that fights over the borrowing limit have been contentious before. But it said bond interest and principal have always been paid on time.

The nation would likely retain its triple-A rating if the limit is raised before a default. But Moody's said it could assign a negative outlook on U.S. debt if lawmakers and the president fail to make major progress on a long-term plan to reduce the federal deficit.

Jeffrey A. Goldstein, a Treasury Department official, said the announcement is a "timely reminder of the need for Congress to move quickly ... and agree upon a substantial deficit reduction package."

But talks between the Obama administration and Republican leaders in Congress are at a standstill. Republicans are insisting on deep spending cuts as a condition of voting to raise the limit. Democrats want to include tax increases to help close the budget gap, a move Republicans adamantly oppose.

Obama and Republican lawmakers met for a fourth straight day Wednesday. Obama has said the daily meetings will continue until a deal is reached.

The stalemate prompted the top Republican in the Senate to propose giving Obama sweeping new powers to increase the limit to avoid default. Other Republicans criticized the idea.

"We need to get hit over the head to do the right thing," said Maya MacGuineas, president of the Committee for a Responsible Budget, a bipartisan group of experts and former members of Congress that study budget policy issues. "It's terrible it's gotten this far but it's necessary," she added, referring to Moody's review.

Robert Bixby, executive director of the Concord Coalition, which advocates for deficit reduction, said the warnings from the ratings agencies reflect concerns about U.S. politics, rather than its ability to handle large debts.

"Right now we've got these dysfunctional debt limit talks," Bixby said. "It's not surprising that an agency like Moody's would weigh in and say, 'Hey guys, this is the real world.'"

[WMD351]

No way on earth is now the time I'd be buying in.

I'd say if your planning on investing in shares at this point in time then you've got some big balls. Huge balls. I mean, you must be pushing those things around in a wheelbarrow if they're that big.

Personally I don't think the worlds going anywhere stable for a lot of years to come.

China's been booming pretty big, but after the boom comes the bust.
If China went down we'd be stuffed, but it's an odd situation. The way communist China can screw with their currency and economy is something new and very unknown, unpredictable.

[dave289]

Nows the time to be selling not buying , as consumer confidence evaperates with the state of our economy and uncertainty so will the price of the share market , its not rocket science.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by dave289

Nows the time to be selling not buying , as consumer confidence evaperates with the state of our economy and uncertainty so will the price of the share market , its not rocket science.

The share market game is a long term investment though is it not, it's not like you buy into the market and then cash in your chips the next day, you have to ride the highs and lows, I guess if you can pick a good time to buy in when a certain sector is at a low and have a good understanding that it will grow in the future, it's just how long, if the US goes under were all screwed, a lot of people suprisingly don't seem to understand this, they seem to think the market is dictated by the Asia/Pacific market conditions.

[WMD351]

Always has been a case of time in the market.
At the moment though a lot of economists see things not taking off again any time soon. There's a fair bit of belief that things will just go sideways for a lot of years yet, much like what happened to Japan.
America still really is the big dog. If they went under and stopped buying from China, it's only a theory that China's domestic market could pick up the slack. If they didn't then we'd be in some trouble.

Personally I find it hard to see things picking up soon, but there's a very real possibility things could go bad.
Big chance of loss for not much, if any gain.
That for me makes now not the time to buy.

[dave289]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

The share market game is a long term investment though is it not, it's not like you buy into the market and then cash in your chips the next day, you have to ride the highs and lows, I guess if you can pick a good time to buy in when a certain sector is at a low and have a good understanding that it will grow in the future, it's just how long, if the US goes under were all screwed, a lot of people suprisingly don't seem to understand this, they seem to think the market is dictated by the Asia/Pacific market conditions.

maybe its just best to answer your question in the op as to my share portfolio. As for my share portfolio, it is now non existant as of last year, hope this gives you some indication of what I think is on the horizon. If you wish to lose money then buy some shares,dont worry to much most sheeple have their lifes savings in the form of super tied up in the share marketbut not only dont relize it but would not have a clue as yo what has and it being pirchased with their superfunds, so as least you will now what it is you are actually losing money on unlike the others who will have no idea untill its too late,but thats sheeple for you, the worker bee or drone if you like, who 90 percent have absolutely no idea whatsoever where their money is but thinks its safe, and untill recent years it has beensafe but not anymore.

[SEZ213]

I'm actually surprised the US still has a AAA credit rating. If they get the stimulus from the Fed Reserve I would imagine the value of their dollar will decrease again...I can see pre-war Germany money value happening again in the not too distant future...

In saying that, I know sweet FA about world finances, but from the way money is going, you'd be better off getting your money laundered...if you get my drift...or physical gold...

[dags41v]

There are some quite good share bargains around at the moment but buying in is highly dependent on your risk profile and investment time frame.

Some bloke called Warren buffet said "it is not timing the market, it is time In the market"

Get some good independant advice from someone with all you financial info.

[The Outsider]

problem with super is that the gumbyment thinks im not smart enough to look after it myself and gives all the power to corporations that can just as easily loose it for my as i can.
but thats not the topic here.
i agree shares are not something to be getting into right now.

[landau460]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Do many people here have a share portfolio? I have been thinking about buying into the share market for a while, even if is a small investment to start with, but the market is so shaky at the moment, I know the resources is usually a save bet, but the way the world economy is going at the moment I feel almost insane taking the plunge.

I have been reading a bit into the world economy, it's interesting that some people at work will say to me that Australia dictates it's own economic stability, but these people couldn't be further from the truth, with the happenings around the world especially in Europe things are not looking good, what are other peoples thoughts, I had a read of this:



Waaaayyy to much credit, it's almost unbelievable, we have all heard of the saying "you have to spend money to make money" but it's insane borrowing!

Agreed not sure if this would work with economys. But when i ran very low on money and could see the next few weeks and months going further down, i was offered assistance from my father. Which i politlely declined and stated as nice as it would help me out now, i needed to get out of this my self!

And the same with credit cards is my rule of thumb (and i know there is a part for credit like having a history a good one goes in your favour)
IF YOU DONT HAVE THE MONEY DONT BORROW TO GET IT OR GET OUT OF DEBT!

You only have to pay it back and the intrest is adding up to money you allready don't have. So a problem now of debt that could be relativly shortly fixed could now be a debt that WILL taker longer to fix.

Surely such big debts the theory is the same the debt is big but the tax is coming from millions of people.
Now its just a matter of cutting spending. And lowering costs. Tightening up ship as it were.

[dags41v]

+1 too many people borrowing too much cash to pay for items that depreciate so quickly its not funny.

[FGII-XR6]

hold off till there is a big bust which there will be , thats the time to buy, when they are panic selling. when things then recover you will make big profits

[AU101]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

hold off till there is a big bust which there will be , thats the time to buy, when they are panic selling. when things then recover you will make big profits

Reminds me of the saying

There are more millionaries are made out of a bust than a boom

[roberts]

Originally Posted by AU101

Reminds me of the saying

There are more millionaries are made out of a bust than a boom

that quote reminds me of this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dcaa0KV2xVg

[SB076]

I have a share portfolio but I sold out of most of my stocks earlier this year (thankfully) I wouldnt be getting into the share market just yet, as others have said there are some issues out there, which could (and I think will) impact negatively on the share market.

Europe's issues are well documented, USA is still struggling despite trying various things to get their economy back on track. Chinas manufacturing growth has slowed. Here in Australia retailers are now stating times are tough and there is talk that interest rates could drop.

[ford man xf]

Australias economy is in serious trouble, I was reading some figures today, retail spending has dropped, from memory David Jones sales have plumeted 11%, and although Woolworths sales are up 4.1% its consumer electronics division is down 4.1%.

Woolworths warns of difficult year ahead for retailers
WOOLWORTHS chief Michael Luscombe has warned of a tough year ahead for retailers, as poor consumer confidence and ongoing price deflation slash returns across the sector.
"There is no doubt that it is going to be survival of the fittest," he said, as Woolworths released sales figures showing a 4.1 per cent increase in annual revenue to $48.1 billion.

However, the figures included a 4.1 per cent decline in sales during the fourth quarter from the company's consumer electronics division, which includes the Dick Smith chain.

Meanwhile discount department store Big W, which had gone backwards for the previous seven quarters, could manage nothing better than flat sales in the June quarter when the benefit of new stores and Easter trading -- which was not included in the previous comparable period -- were stripped out.

Sales at Big W were down 0.8 per cent to $4.1bn for the financial year, the worst result of the company's Australian businesses.

Shares of Woolworths underperformed the broader market today. By mid-afternoon, Woolies shares were up 19 cents, or 0.7 per cent, to $27.14 against a 1.6 per cent jump in the benchmark S&P/ASX 200 index.

Woolies ruled off its financial year on June 26 and so the figures do not include trading for July, when consumer confidence plunged to its lowest level since the global financial crisis and department store David Jones said shoppers simply stopped buying.

Mr Luscombe declined to comment on the company's sales performance since the end of the financial year but indicated investors should be prepared for tough times ahead.

"We should be under no illusion as to the year we have ahead of us -- it is going to be a tough year for retail," he said.

Australian food and liquor, the company's largest operating division, reported sales of $36.2bn for the financial year, up 4.3 per cent, or 3.0 per cent on a comparable store basis.

Mr Luscombe said the Woolworths supermarket chain had increased its market share, customer numbers, average transaction size and sales by volume during the year, although trading was still impacted by tighter consumer spending conditions.

The company was also continuing to cut prices in order to compete with archrival Coles, with average shelf prices down by 4.3 per cent in the first half of the financial year and 3.6 per cent in the second, excluding tobacco.

In New Zealand, Woolies' supermarket business reported a 3.4 per cent increase in annual sales to $5.3bn, however the rising Australian dollar transformed the result into a 0.5 per cent decline in local currency terms.

The New Zealand consumer electronics business was also down, posting a 5.6 per cent decline in sales to $NZ322m ($257m) for the financial year, with currency effects amplifying the fall to 8.1 per cent.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...-1226098337745

David Jones sales figures hit record low with low consumer confidence, carbon tax fear

•Fourth quarter sales fall 11 per cent
•David Jones slashes profit forecast by 20pc
•Company to consider aggressive discounting
•Myer reconfirms 5pc profit downgrade
DAVID Jones says a dramatic plunge in consumer confidence among well-heeled shoppers, exacerbated by carbon tax fears, has led to a record fall in sales.
The company says it will consider more aggressive discounting, but believes the Australian retail industry is in uncharted territory.

Shares in the upmarket department store chain have plunged 17 per cent after it cut its second half profit guidance by 15 to 20 per cent due to a steep fall in mid-year sales.

"We saw a decline in May with slight negative sales, but we saw a significant decline in June and July and the result were certainly unprecedented," chief executive Paul Zahra told a media teleconference today.

"As far back as our records show, we haven't seen these sorts of declines in sales."

After trading closed yesterday, David Jones said an unprecedented and rapid deterioration in trading conditions had forced it to cut its sales and profit guidance.

Start of sidebar. Skip to end of sidebar.
Related Coverage.Myer: Confirm 5pc profit loss
..End of sidebar. Return to start of sidebar.
Sales in the fourth quarter of its fiscal 2011 would fall by 11 per cent and net profit for its second half would be down by between 15 per cent and 20 per cent compared with its first half, the company said.

It comes a day after the Westpac-Melbourne Institute index of consumer sentiment in July fell to its lowest level since the height of the global financial crisis.

The largest fall was among the highest income group.

"That is actually the David Jones customer base," Mr Zahra said.

The company said full year net profit would decline by between 0.5 per cent and 2 per cent, equating to a profit between $167.7 million and $169.7 million for the 12 months to its 30 July balance date.

David Jones last year reported a 9.1 per cent rise in full year profit to $170.8 million as shoppers were lured back to the chain by discounting.

Mr Zahra said sales across all lines were down and more aggressive discounting could be required in the first half of the financial year.

"Today there's been no standout performances. It's been across the board," he said.

"It's fair to say that categories like electronics have done it particularly tough."

He said the carbon tax debate had compounded the sharp deterioration of consumer sentiment in June and July.

"I have no doubt," he said.

David Jones would continue to invest in its brand, with a fashion launch in August and several new designers joining the brand.

"We're experiencing exceptionally tough times, tougher than we've experienced before," Mr Zahra said.

"I don't really know what we're entering into, but our future guidance fully factors in that negative sales environment."

He said the company planned to deal with the excess inventory in the fiscal year.

"We don't plan to add to our discounting and marketing program. It just means that our discounts may be deeper as we move into the summer season."

The whole retail sector was suffering, he said.

As recently as May, David Jones reaffirmed its profit guidance for five per cent growth for its fiscal year about to end.

But that was on the condition that the improved trading conditions experienced in April continued.

Shares in David Jones had dropped 69 cents, or 17.65 per cent, to $3.23 by 1.58pm (AEST).

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/busi...-1226094649129

[gtfpv]

hmmmmm i'm starting to feel pessimistic. with a $750 flood levy , and a carbon dioxide tax coming , petrol prices have gone up 30% in 18 months , my land rates have just gone up 10% pa , plus water electricity and amenities going up around 10% plus in some cases . and groceries going up , along with mobile phones forever going up each time you buy a new contract that is .
combined with the fact that wages !!! in some cases arent going up a brass waaazooo . is leaving me looking for pay rises .
the strangest thing is , inflation use to always include wages !!!! now it seems non inclusive .
i might add that i'm about to receive a 5% pa increase pa over the next 3 years . in my case i'm not sure it will compensate what i've just lost out on .
but others such as my wife , in her non union type work , seems to be going from job to job and struggling to keep the same hourly rate , compared to 15 years ago !!!!!! and i'm ok jack , so not whinging but i have quite a bit tied up in GROWTH SUPER . MY PESSIMISM certainly aint optimistic at the moment , from a stable point of view . i'm worried for my own situation . i dont know how others are going ? but i'm apparantely in a good boat .

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

hmmmmm i'm starting to feel pessimistic. with a $750 flood levy , and a carbon dioxide tax coming , petrol prices have gone up 30% in 18 months , my land rates have just gone up 10% pa , plus water electricity and amenities going up around 10% plus in some cases . and groceries going up , along with mobile phones forever going up each time you buy a new contract that is .
combined with the fact that wages !!! in some cases arent going up a brass waaazooo . is leaving me looking for pay rises .
the strangest thing is , inflation use to always include wages !!!! now it seems non inclusive .
i might add that i'm about to receive a 5% pa increase pa over the next 3 years . in my case i'm not sure it will compensate what i've just lost out on .
but others such as my wife , in her non union type work , seems to be going from job to job and struggling to keep the same hourly rate , compared to 15 years ago !!!!!! and i'm ok jack , so not whinging but i have quite a bit tied up in GROWTH SUPER . MY PESSIMISM certainly aint optimistic at the moment , from a stable point of view . i'm worried for my own situation . i dont know how others are going ? but i'm apparantely in a good boat .

Biggest problem with wage rises is cost to the business, everyone want's a payrise but they never consider what it costs the company to pay everyone especially with a struggling business, and then with the pay rise, the money has to come from somewhere so products and services that the business provides has to go up so the consumer then pays more, then the consumer (who is not unlike any other worker) want's a payrise because essentials goods & services have gone up, its like an endless loop, and it all starts with greedy unionists, no offense to any union members here but it's the truth and I doubt you would even deny this.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Biggest problem with wage rises is cost to the business, everyone want's a payrise but they never consider what it costs the company to pay everyone especially with a struggling business, and then with the pay rise, the money has to come from somewhere so products and services that the business provides has to go up so the consumer then pays more, then the consumer (who is not unlike any other worker) want's a payrise because essentials goods & services have gone up, its like an endless loop, and it all starts with greedy unionists, no offense to any union members here but it's the truth and I doubt you would even deny this.

ohhh really . i didnt know electricity prices rising . oil , petrol , phone bills , water , groceries , and land rates all going up over and above inflation all started with greedy unionists . i suppose your not getting any pays rises this year hey . good for you . your trying to do your bit for the economy , whilst all thse things are going up .
how about besides being a pric# . do everyone a favour and give yourself an uppercut .no offense intended of course but i doubt many would deny this .

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

ohhh really . i didnt know electricity prices rising . oil , petrol , phone bills , water , groceries , and land rates all going up over and above inflation all started with greedy unionists . i suppose your not getting any pays rises this year hey . good for you . your trying to do your bit for the economy , whilst all thse things are going up .
how about besides being a pric# . do everyone a favour and give yourself an uppercut .no offense intended of course but i doubt many would deny this .

Ease up tiger.

I wasn't really talking about phone bills or petrol.

Union delegation/representative: We believe our members should get a pay rise, I know times are tough at the moment in this industry, I know you look after our members with holiday pay loading, payed overtime, bonuses and what not, but we believe that a pay rise is necessary, I'm not concerned with what shape your company is in and the fact that it employs 25 people, many of whom have families & mortgages. I know it might seem a little ungrateful for our members to be demanding such things even though they have a very good package, but we will keep sucking you dry because your just some fat cat millionaire who owns a company and every worker here is just a number to you.

Business owner/representative: You do realize if we pay our workers that much extra we have to find the money somewhere, we will have to charge extra for our products & services, but being a good company and always believing in looking after our workers we are up for negation.

Union delegation/representative: That won't matter because all that will need to happen is other companies will have to pay their workers more so they can afford to keep up, I do realize that these exact workers are the ones that make bread, run fruit & veggies, work for the gas & electricity company and like you will have to rise their prices to cover the associated costs of a pay rise for their workers. And because you have not given into our demands were going on strike, reducing productivity of your company and forcing non union members who are happy and grateful for what they have and just want to do their job.

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Ease up tiger.

I wasn't really talking about phone bills or petrol.

Union delegation/representative: We believe our members should get a pay rise, I know times are tough at the moment in this industry, I know you look after our members with holiday pay loading, payed overtime, bonuses and what not, but we believe that a pay rise is necessary, I'm not concerned with what shape your company is in and the fact that it employs 25 people, many of whom have families & mortgages. I know it might seem a little ungrateful for our members to be demanding such things even though they have a very good package, but we will keep sucking you dry because your just some fat cat millionaire who owns a company and every worker here is just a number to you.

Business owner/representative: You do realize if we pay our workers that much extra we have to find the money somewhere, we will have to charge extra for our products & services, but being a good company and always believing in looking after our workers we are up for negation.

Union delegation/representative: That won't matter because all that will need to happen is other companies will have to pay their workers more so they can afford to keep up, I do realize that these exact workers are the ones that make bread, run fruit & veggies, work for the gas & electricity company and like you will have to rise their prices to cover the associated costs of a pay rise for their workers. And because you have not given into our demands were going on strike, reducing productivity of your company and forcing non union members who are happy and grateful for what they have and just want to do their job.

sigh :::::::: i'm assuming your young .

forgive my grammer now .
union delegation / representaive . we would like a pay rise to keep up with inflation , child care costs , transport costs and essential services keep going up , and we are aware the company has to pay these costs also , therefore would you consider when you pass on the increased costs of the business to your consumer that your employees are included as they also need to meet the increased costs of living in essential services .

business representative . NO

Union rep . but surely you want your employees to not go backwards as you bring your company forward to meet the increased costs and and that of your share holders and staff , how about your workers . too .

business rep , eeer NO . my staff salaries are frozen , as they are all on different money according to thier positions , none of them will back the other up , and if they do , i will show them the door , as for you collective workers the same applies .

union rep . this is not fair australia is losing its living standard . we may be forced to take action , by not working through our lucnh breaks anymore , and we will cancell overtime and just work to rule .

business rep . how about we show them the door and lock them out , greedy mongrels , and at the end of shift company locks the gates contacts the media , who breaks a news story that workers have gone on strike over pay and conditions , the union is taking the company to the industrial relations commission to try and claw back workers jobs .

i could go on . !!! this is reality there boy .

[AU101]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

Biggest problem with wage rises is cost to the business, everyone want's a payrise but they never consider what it costs the company to pay everyone especially with a struggling business, and then with the pay rise, the money has to come from somewhere so products and services that the business provides has to go up so the consumer then pays more, then the consumer (who is not unlike any other worker) want's a payrise because essentials goods & services have gone up, its like an endless loop, and it all starts with greedy unionists, no offense to any union members here but it's the truth and I doubt you would even deny this.

The cost of goods and services doesn't solely rise due to pay increases. You have it half right, greed yes, greedy unionists, pleaseeeee. One is pure greed by corporations, they know that they can get more $$$ for product and service X because people need it and will pay it. eg: electricity & petrol, its all about profits and giving the highest returns tor shareholders.

Let me guess your obviously not in a union and jealous of the wages and conditions we receive. I'll head inside when it starts raining and the grubs can stay outside like drowned rats, oh no offense to any grubs

[ford man xf]

The cost of goods and services doesn't solely rise due to pay increases.

I never said a wage increase is solely responsible for an increase of goods and services, but wage increases do have a correlation with inflation.

You have it half right, greed yes, greedy unionists, pleaseeeee. One is pure greed by corporations, they know that they can get more $$$ for product and service X because people need it and will pay it. eg: electricity & petrol, its all about profits and giving the highest returns tor shareholders.

Petrol is expensive because of a world market, corporations can't dictate what investors are willing to pay for resources such as oil, which is determined by market conditions. This is not saying that petrol companies don't gouge prices, there isn't evidence either way that they do or don't, so who knows?
And why shouldn't the shareholders get a good return, they are the ones that took the risk to invest their money.

Let me guess your obviously not in a union and jealous of the wages and conditions we receive. I'll head inside when it starts raining and the grubs can stay outside like drowned rats, oh no offense to any grubs

Hahaha I like this. No I'm not in the union and I'm not jealous of the wages and conditions members receive, I say good on them if they can achieve those kinds of results and their employer can stay afloat, but I do wish they would stop their whinging, maybe its just me because of my last 2 jobs and what I had to endure and experience and it's left a bitter taste in my mouth. At my last job it didn't occur to me until the last 2 weeks of my employment that all the workers that were union members were all the lazy ones, it was like one of those moments when a light bulb goes off and everything becomes clear, it was truly one of those moments, I looked around and took note of who was in the union and who wasn't and all the whingers and lazy workers were members and our best workers who just put their head down, worked hard, didn't complain and go the job done were no union members. On speaking to a couple of the union members I discovered that those 2 didn't mind taking it easy and if they did lose there job (they obviously knew they were slack and would be the first to go if the company had issues) they wanted some backup that the Union movement would provide such as giving some temporary work to them even if it meant sweeping a broom on a construction site. And my current job is no different.

I will say it is pretty amusing how union sites won't work when it rains or gets too hot, down tools boys.
With the conditions, wages and rights we get in this country you would almost think there would be nothing to complain about, yet people still complain.

And I'm not completely anti-union, I do realize that conditions we currently have were achieved in part by union movements, it's just the continuous whinging by union members who think they have the right to a large piece of the pie because they have a membership card, they don't understand they are not in a partnership with the company, they are a worker, because the company might be making money doesn't mean you get a nice slice of the pie.

[AU101]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

I will say it is pretty amusing how union sites won't work when it rains or gets too hot, down tools boys.
With the conditions, wages and rights we get in this country you would almost think there would be nothing to complain about, yet people still complain.

New you'd bring this up, Rain and electricity don't mix champ! It's down right dangerous to work in the rain as an electrician, domestic or commercial. Working up on the top deck in the dry is hard enough with the bond deck, form ply and re-o, would not want to even attempt this in the wet, one slip and your gone.

Why should we work in the rain? We are not a 3rd world country! Its all about safety, quite simply its just NOT SAFE! Look at countries like Dubai who push their workers to the brink and how many people die on their sites!

[robjg33]

David Jones Paul Zahra backed away from those comments after customers posted that it was DJ not other issues that shifted customers away
plus strong dollar means DJ customers can afford to go O/S and shop in the "fashion capitals" ie paris NY
the new store Zara in Aust is having great growth

the economy of Aust is extremely strong and until we start getting positive stories in the media and confidence back in the marketplace the perception that we are in the ***** will become self fulfilling and we will have an economy which will contract

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by robjg33

David Jones Paul Zahra backed away from those comments after customers posted that it was DJ not other issues that shifted customers away
plus strong dollar means DJ customers can afford to go O/S and shop in the "fashion capitals" ie paris NY
the new store Zara in Aust is having great growth

With the strong AUD brings cheaper imported goods, TV's, Blue ray and all the newest gadgets are cheaper than ever, if anything sales should be increasing, the fact remains people are not spending, as was mentioned by gtfpv petrol prices have gone up considerably, bills have gone up astronomically, and I mean astronomically its ridiculous, cost of living prices are at record highs with no pay rises in sight people are being very cautious with their spendings.
Zara is having good growth because it is relatively new, it is also a worldwide renowned which only has one store in Melbourne & Sydney, were not talking about small designer shops that employ a handful of people were talking about the big players here.

the economy of Aust is extremely strong and until we start getting positive stories in the media and confidence back in the marketplace the perception that we are in the ***** will become self fulfilling and we will have an economy which will contract

What are you basing that on exactly? Even housing is taking a hit (although it probably is more of a correction to true market value) unemployment remains steady, but people aren't spending big on retail, to me it could be saying people are very cautious with there spending, if moneys not being pumped into retail then the results can be disastrous for employment levels. People are tightening their wallets.

[WMD351]

I heard Ross Greenwood waffling on this morning, he said that since 2007 Aussie savings have exploded.
Apparently we've gone from spending 101% of what we earn pre GFC to saving on a national average $97 a week.
He thinks it's not that people don't have money, simply that they're not spending as they shore up preparing for tough times.

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by WMD351

I heard Ross Greenwood waffling on this morning, he said that since 2007 Aussie savings have exploded.
Apparently we've gone from spending 101% of what we earn pre GFC to saving on a national average $97 a week.
He thinks it's not that people don't have money, simply that they're not spending as they shore up preparing for tough times.

That's a massive turn around, staggering really.