Lessons to be learned from a less that co-ordinated approach to a disaster

[AlanD]

Here you go

Cheers

[Pis-ton broke]

personally, if i don,t do my job, i can expect to get a-holed.
i,m sick of hearing "Lessons to be learned", you have opened a can of worms.
but interesting times we live in.

[T3rminator]

Ignore party politics for a sec and just focus on governance.

It seems absolutely crazy that you can have a system where there is potentially 7 different ways to deal with a pandemic within a country, but that is what we have witnessed to a varying degree. Something is not right. It almost worked, but almost is not good enough.

As far as I am aware, the constitution states that the federal government is accountable for quarantine. The responsibility was delegated to the states, they accepted, fair enough. But as the accountable entity you have a duty to provide oversight. At work, it is drummed into us that you can delegate responsibility but not accountability. The phrase "all care no responsibility" seems to ring true with our current setup.

As for stuff ups, I have stuffed up on many occasions in life and at work, but I always got a chance to make it up. So I am in the camp that believes you get a chance to fix a mess, on the proviso that the mess wasn't created because of deliberate actions, corruption or blatant incompetence. We need to wait for the hotel inquiry report to see if the mess in Vic tick any of the 3.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

As far as I am aware, the constitution states that the federal government is accountable for quarantine. The responsibility was delegated to the states, they accepted, fair enough. But as the accountable entity you have a duty to provide oversight. At work, it is drummed into us that you can delegate responsibility but not accountability. The phrase "all care no responsibility" seems to ring true with our current setup.

show me where in our Constitution is says that

I am sick of people saying 'our constitution this' and ' our constitution that' but have never ever read it, I have! Our constitution is mostly about how our political system is set up, not about civil rights

We have seen our Constitution at work with the States having more power than most Australians ever thought, that is our Constitution. And the Federal Government having a lot less power than people ever thought, that is our Constitution

Why has there been very few 'Amendments' to the Constitution, because it is bloody good

and 'human rights this' and human right that' but have never picked up the Human Rights Charter, not being allowed access to potable water is a human right breach'. Having to wear a face mask is NOT a human rights breach FFS!

so show me where in our Constitution is says that

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

show me where in our Constitution is says that



I am sick of people saying 'our constitution this' and ' our constitution that' but have never ever read it, I have! Our constitution is mostly about how our political system is set up, not about civil rights



We have seen our Constitution at work with the States having more power than most Australians ever thought, that is our Constitution. And the Federal Government having a lot less power than people ever thought, that is our Constitution



Why has there been very few 'Amendments' to the Constitution, because it is bloody good



and 'human rights this' and human right that' but have never picked up the Human Rights Charter, not being allowed access to potable water is a human right breach'. Having to wear a face mask is NOT a human rights breach FFS!



so show me where in our Constitution is says that

.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

. image

so where does it say that the Feds can hand over responsibility to the States?

States have their own powers and as stated earlier under the declaration of 'disaster' or 'emergency' they can invoke other powers

[snap0964]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Our constitution is mostly about how our political system is set up, not about civil rights
We have seen our Constitution at work with the States having more power than most Australians ever thought, that is our Constitution. And the Federal Government having a lot less power than people ever thought, that is our Constitution
Why has there been very few 'Amendments' to the Constitution, because it is bloody good

I think I'll agree to disagree Trev.

I tend to think this pandemic has shown the constitution needs to be looked at, along with the levels of government.
A premier needs PM endorsement to use the ADF, yet can isolate their state by a state law or pass a bill to bypass Fed Constitution sect 92(freedom of movement).

Reminds me of the Hutt river succession all those years ago.

Are we a Federation?, or still a bunch of colonies after 120 yrs.

Local government isn't recognised in the Fed Constitution - so you pay rates to a non existent entity.
While federal funding like jobseeker/keeper and GST keep coming in, there's no onus to reopen to aid local economies.

[tweeked]

“Hotel Quarantine of returning travellers” has nothing to to with general quarantine, These processes were enacted under each states state of emergency or disaster laws with handed powers to thier chief medical officers. The constitution allows state to make laws in this regard and actively stops the federal government from “meddling” too deeply into state affairs

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by tweeked

“Hotel Quarantine of returning travellers” has nothing to to with general quarantine, These processes were enacted under each states state of emergency or disaster laws with handed powers to thier chief medical officers. The constitution allows state to make laws in this regard and actively stops the federal government from “meddling” too deeply into state affairs

Ok, maybe I'm misinterpreting whats there. So when migrants arrive into Australia, apparently they have to declare whether they are free from certain diseases like Tuberculosis, who looks after that? I thought it was the ABF.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by tweeked

“Hotel Quarantine of returning travellers” has nothing to to with general quarantine, These processes were enacted under each states state of emergency or disaster laws with handed powers to thier chief medical officers. The constitution allows state to make laws in this regard and actively stops the federal government from “meddling” too deeply into state affairs

So I'm confused now...

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/health-.../australia.php

"Under Australia’s federal system, states and territories have primary responsibility for matters related to health care and emergency management. The federal government provides various funding, policy leadership, and coordination assistance in the context of national responses to public health emergencies. It also has quarantine powers and powers related to border management that can be utilized where there is an epidemic or threat of an epidemic. National agreements, as well as the National Health Security Act 2007 (Cth), establish structures and processes for preventing and responding to national health emergencies, with different entities providing oversight and coordination at the national level, and states and territories applying their own laws, jurisdictional responses, and coordination processes. This includes a national notification and surveillance system under which state and territory authorities report on instances of certain diseases to a central authority, which then makes information available for analysis and discussion. In the event of a public health threat, state and territory public health laws provide a range of powers to enable action to be taken by authorities. This can include ordering medical examinations, treatment, and detention of individuals."

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

So I'm confused now...

https://www.loc.gov/law/help/health-.../australia.php

"Under Australia’s federal system, states and territories have primary responsibility for matters related to health care and emergency management. The federal government provides various funding, policy leadership, and coordination assistance in the context of national responses to public health emergencies. It also has quarantine powers and powers related to border management that can be utilized where there is an epidemic or threat of an epidemic. National agreements, as well as the National Health Security Act 2007 (Cth), establish structures and processes for preventing and responding to national health emergencies, with different entities providing oversight and coordination at the national level, and states and territories applying their own laws, jurisdictional responses, and coordination processes. This includes a national notification and surveillance system under which state and territory authorities report on instances of certain diseases to a central authority, which then makes information available for analysis and discussion. In the event of a public health threat, state and territory public health laws provide a range of powers to enable action to be taken by authorities. This can include ordering medical examinations, treatment, and detention of individuals."

that is talking about National borders, NOT State borders

If anything, that proves where the Feds have failed with this COVID-19 thing

[T3rminator]

https://www.aph.gov.au/About_Parliam.../rp0405/05rp03

"The movement towards federation also facilitated the emergence of a national approach to public health. In the lead-up to federation, one of the matters raised regularly as one for which a national government should have the power to make laws was quarantine.(5) The reason given was that quarantine was essential to the health and prosperity of Australia, which this statement from 1884 reflects: Quarantine is a means only to the end sought: which last is the preservation of the public health in Australasia .(6) Quarantine became one of the few functions of government at the time for which the new Commonwealth Parliament had power to make laws.(7)

However, it took outbreaks of disease around the country, such as bubonic plague which ran from 1900 to 1909, to prompt the Commonwealth Government to give legislative effect to its Constitutional quarantine powers. After a conference of state premiers in 1906 passed a resolution that quarantine administration should be taken over by the Commonwealth, the Commonwealth Government introduced a Quarantine Bill in 1907 which took effect from 1 July 1909, as the Quarantine Act 1908 ( the Act ).(8)"

Has it been updated since? I haven't read the whole thing. Its too long. Someone else read it and interpret it for me :P

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

that is talking about National borders, NOT State borders

I'm not understanding where you are coming from. The issue is with quarantining of overseas arrivals, which is the root cause of the 2nd wave.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

I'm not understanding where you are coming from. The issue is with quarantining of overseas arrivals, which is the root cause of the 2nd wave.

That is correct and the PM insisted that the States take in the overseas travellers, house them, feed them and then provide security for them, all this is a Federal responsibility, they cannot walk away from this - they had an oversight responsibility and they failed at it, the same as they failed the Federally run age care people


Riddle me this: Why did the first lot of return travellers get sent to Christmas Island for their quarantine but NO others did? ALL should have been sent there and other off-shore quarantine centres, they are all sitting there pretty much empty. The Feral Government shirking their responsibility IMHO. I totally hold the Feds totally responsible, they let the border control get out of control - it is their responsibility. Ruby Princess is another example of the lack of border control - but the Murdoch press won't have you believe that - it is all the Labor Party's fault

W.A. did it right, sent them to Rottnest Island

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

If anything, that proves where the Feds have failed with this COVID-19 thing

Bingo.

[FTE217]

cheeez its always pointing the finger at one party or the other.
Thats our problem, finger pointing....
Its all ones fault - Fed/State - fancy having a pandemic in a 1000yrs and our leaders cannot work together let alone voters blaming blue red or green.
WTFU - the main thing obvious to me we lack "leadership" period and IF we did have a strong leader how many of you would still say he/she is no good lol......
Sometimes you got to take your rose coloured glass's off for there is no one better from any side unless you yourself stand up get nominated and practice what you preach

Trevor, are you kidding me, how many would be complaining humanitarien rights we kept placing OS arrivals offshore every single time, turn it up.

What can be learned that never sinks in, you can't please them all.

[Trevor 57]

They did it for the first lot out of Wuhan, then Feds put it onto the States to manage - then sit back and criticise when it goes pear shaped.

Feds are responsible for our National borders - fact!!!

[FTE217]

thats how you see it Trevor, its the other sides fault, that helps.
IF only it was that easy.
Its whoever is handling those issues/problems as they occurs fault, no matter which/who's side its on and no matter which side of the press quote click bait leading headlines for reaction. Who's giving instructions ? who didn't ? not what side in the big picture.
Your being just like the left or right side of the press, will it help ? not one bit.
I know you'll counter with some kind of whatever but it no matter, its easy to see its just black and white or I mean blue vs red to you.

[T3rminator]

Just got off a conference with my line manager in the UK. I asked how their health and quarantine system worked, UK being made up of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland, and further broken down into regions, counties and districts within these areas. And similar to our model, each of the 4 countries ran their own quarantine and restriction programs. You can judge the result for yourself.

England has just introduced a 3 tier system, low, medium, high risk. However, each local government may be able to tweak their own rules for the tiers, so two regions on the same tier may have slightly different rules, but this is still to be decided. It's not too dissimilar to the "traffic light" system mentioned by the PM, but I'm hoping that if it gets implemented here, there is a universal rule for red, amber and green. Not have each state or LGA tweak their own. We should watch the UK tier system closely and learn from it.

Originally Posted by FTE217

Your being just like the left or right side of the press, will it help ? not one bit.

Reads like he just had an opinion. Didn't see any left vs right or red vs blue. But I agree, the media has drummed into us that having an opinion puts you into a category, as just proven.

[Trevor 57]

I am sorry if the facts (as I see them) hurt your feelings

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

I am sorry if the facts (as I see them) hurt your feelings

Well if you are talking facts Trev it was the AMA (Australian Medical Association) who told the Feds not send any more people to Xmas Island after the first lot, it was on the AMA's informed recommendations that Xmas Island's medical facilities are not up to dealing with an outbreak of Coronavirus (and rightly so) that the Feds reversed the decision to continue sending people into quarantine on the Island....

Where the Feds stuffed up In this particular instance was by not consulting with the AMA in the first place...

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Well if you are talking facts Trev it was the AMA (Australian Medical Association) who told the Feds not send any more people to Xmas Island after the first lot, it was on the AMA's informed recommendations that Xmas Island's medical facilities are not up to dealing with an outbreak of Coronavirus (and rightly so) that the Feds reversed the decision to continue sending people into quarantine on the Island....

Where the Feds stuffed up In this particular instance was by not consulting with the AMA in the first place...

Isn't that is the reason the feds set up that other facility in NT, when they reckon Christmas island wasn't good enough.

Its supposed to be a quarantine station FFS. Bring it up to standard for that reason.
As for laying blame,
Funny how we all have to take responsibility for what we do, why can't a lazy public servant or politician do the same.
Feds imo are ultimately responsible for all this right from the start they had the means to stop it from entering this big Island and chose to farm it out to the stupid, lazy, greedy state governments.

In fact why do we even need state governments ?
We could have a system where there is a Federal government and the local/county governments. We could then weed out all the deadwood state public servants.

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Isn't that is the reason the feds set up that other facility in NT, when they reckon Christmas island wasn't good enough.

Its supposed to be a quarantine station FFS. Bring it up to standard for that reason.
As for laying blame,
Funny how we all have to take responsibility for what we do, why can't a lazy public servant or politician do the same.
Feds imo are ultimately responsible for all this right from the start they had the means to stop it from entering this big Island and chose to farm it out to the stupid, lazy, greedy state governments.

In fact why do we even need state governments ?
We could have a system where there is a Federal government and the local/county governments. We could then weed out all the deadwood state public servants.

Exceptionally well said on all points roKWiz

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by Trevor 57

Exceptionally well said on all points roKWiz

Looks like your lot could be in a bit of trouble Trev with this Covid thing.When the sticky,smelly stuff hits the fan,it seems that no one is responsible.Some one from a known hotspot decides to go for a drive around,infect who knows how many,and gets let off any real penalty.As for public servants,most do 2 hours in their working life!1 hour to bull**** themselves into the job,and another hour filling in the forms for their retirement,everything else in between is just too hard.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Isn't that is the reason the feds set up that other facility in NT, when they reckon Christmas island wasn't good enough.

Its supposed to be a quarantine station FFS. Bring it up to standard for that reason.

Do you have connections in high places, as I think that's what they'll be doing shortly.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Do you have connections in high places, as I think that's what they'll be doing shortly.

No, I just use common bl**dy sense, something which is lacking in any Government dept.
Mind you I could be chipped (tin hat brigade) as every time I walk past a radio the reception goes haywire. They must be listening.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Isn't that is the reason the feds set up that other facility in NT, when they reckon Christmas island wasn't good enough.

Its supposed to be a quarantine station FFS. Bring it up to standard for that reason.
As for laying blame,
Funny how we all have to take responsibility for what we do, why can't a lazy public servant or politician do the same.
Feds imo are ultimately responsible for all this right from the start they had the means to stop it from entering this big Island and chose to farm it out to the stupid, lazy, greedy state governments.

In fact why do we even need state governments ?
We could have a system where there is a Federal government and the local/county governments. We could then weed out all the deadwood state public servants.

The one out at Howard Springs NT belongs to the NT Govt, it's the old Inpex construction camp that was gifted to the NT when Inpex finished with it.
In February it was used to house Australians who had been evacuated from Wuhan, and It's been in constant use since then, and as i mentioned in the other COVID thread we have crew from Vic/NSW that have to fly up 2 weeks prior to joining ship and have to do a 14 day quarantine there, it's all sectioned off to keep people/groups isolated so cannot be used to it's designed population size, although it does house more than most other facilities been used and by all accounts in better conditions.

The other issue with the place is it's only got basic medical facilities, basically a First Aid station, but anyone that gets sick ends up in Darwin Hospital which is only 20 or 30 minutes away.

My (only) point been all these calls to ship them off to the offshore detention centers is not feasible, these places are only designed for illegal immigrants and not designed at all to deal with pandemic type situations, they just do not have the medical infrastructure to deal with one, any of the detainees get seriously sick out at these places end up been medivaced to the mainland.

I worked on a vessel that used to transport boat people/asylum seekers out to Christmas Island and the detention center is basic to say the least, it's not designed to hold returning Australians, it's basically a Prison as are Nauru and Manus (the added problem with Nauru/Manus centres is that they are in foreign countries)

The whole hotel quarantine shamozle is rubbish, dedicated Quarantine facilities do need to be set up and it does **** me of that it's not happening, but they do need to be done right or we will still have the leaky band aid issues we have now.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

The one out at Howard Springs NT belongs to the NT Govt, it's the old Inpex construction camp that was gifted to the NT when Inpex finished with it.
In February it was used to house Australians who had been evacuated from Wuhan, and It's been in constant use since then, and as i mentioned in the other COVID thread we have crew from Vic/NSW that have to fly up 2 weeks prior to joining ship and have to do a 14 day quarantine there, it's all sectioned off to keep people/groups isolated so cannot be used to it's designed population size, although it does house more than most other facilities been used and by all accounts in better conditions.

The other issue with the place is it's only got basic medical facilities, basically a First Aid station, but anyone that gets sick ends up in Darwin Hospital which is only 20 or 30 minutes away.

My (only) point been all these calls to ship them off to the offshore detention centers is , these places are only designed for illegal immigrants and not designed at all to deal with pandemic type situations, they just do not have the medical infrastructure to deal with one, any of the detainees get seriously sick out at these places end up been medivaced to the mainland.

I worked on a vessel that used to transport boat people/asylum seekers out to Christmas Island and the detention center is basic to say the least, it's not designed to hold returning Australians, it's basically a Prison as are Nauru and Manus (the added problem with Nauru/Manus centres is that they are in foreign countries)

The whole hotel quarantine shamozle is rubbish, dedicated Quarantine facilities do need to be set up and it does **** me of that it's not happening, but they do need to be done right or we will still have the leaky band aid issues we have now.

Like I mentioned before roKWiz must have had a word to Scomo


https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-10-...-home/12769796

[tweeked]

All it would have taken was for the states to hold the Feds up to their side, but that would have required all states to agree on how the Feds would handle it, but they all wanted to handle things their own way. Remember the first few national cabinets, no one would relinquish control of anything.

So yes it could have been handled under the federal laws, but the states CHOSE to use their powers and handle it themselves under their own set of laws.

It is all a bit like a bad movie, local cops don't want the feds involved, because we can solve the case better.

[Trevor 57]

and based on how the Feds handled the border control and aged care it wasn't such a bad idea

[Trevor 57]

they are going in to their 2nd wave, we are coming out of our 2nd wave

Johnson was a non-believer until he go it and finished up in ICU, he is balancing the financial implications versus the health implications, in the past it was all about the financial, but he has swayed, but I am not 100% sure his Party is behind him