Who sold the most in Cash for Clunkers? That was skewed too!

[Ohio XB]

We've all heard how great the Japanese brand cars sold in the Cash for Clunkers program. Well, that's going by the Environmental Protection Agency's method of rating sales by car configuration, not necessarily by car model.

What's that mean? Well, you may have heard that Edmunds.com has a different top 10 than the government does. Here's why.

The government is going by the EPA's method of separating each car by configuration, not model. In otherwords, for example, the Ford Escape is available in a 4 cylinder, V6, and hybrid models. Add to that manual (with the 4 cylinder) and automatic transmissions, and 4WD as well, and you now have the Escape looked at by the government as 6 (SIX!) different models...

4 cylinder automatic
4 cylinder manual
4 cylinder 4WD
V6 automatic
V6 4WD
Hybrid

So, individual configuration sales of this car are going to be low numbers because there are six configurations of the Escape as opposed to a car like the Toyota Corrolla which only has 2; 4 cylinder manual or automatic.

Edmunds.com looks at car sales the way you and I would. An Escape is an Escape, no matter what drivetrain it has. When you go by this, as Edmunds.com does, the sales outlook during the cash for clunkers deal is GREATLY different. Here it is side-by-side compared to the government's ratings...


Whose top 10?
The government's list of the top 10 vehicles purchased under the cash-for-clunkers program differs sharply from the top 10 compiled by Edmunds.com.

Edmunds.com's list (Nameplate)

1. Ford Escape
2. Ford Focus
3. Honda Civic
4. Ford F-150
5. Toyota Corolla
6. Toyota Camry
7. Dodge Caliber
8. Jeep Patriot
9. Honda CR-V
10. Chevy Silverado

DOT's list (Model)

1. Toyota Corolla
2. Honda Civic
3. Ford Focus fwd
4. Toyota Camry
5. Hyundai Elantra
6. Toyota Prius
7. Nissan Versa
8. Ford Escape fwd
9. Honda Fit
10. Honda CR-V 4wd

Source: Edmunds.com; Department of Transportation

Ok, so this board won't put them side-by-side.


Yes, Ford sold even more F-150's than the Toyota Corrolla. That's because, again, there are so many different configurations of the F-150.


It is my guess that the reason this is not pointed out as often in the news as just the straight government numbers is because we are supposed to believe that everyone is shunning trucks and SUV/CUV's and buying the "more fuel efficient" Japanese brand cars, which as you can see is just bull.



Steve

[XDV800]

Typical beauracratic blindfolding.
The government wants their beliefs to be backed up by real evidence showing that they are always right. If they got it wrong then they just throw millions at a consultancy firm to rearrange the tabling to disguise the fact they're peddling BS half the time. Possibly?

[Luke Plaizier]

Were there published numbers to either of those lists?

And why is that dang Hybrid Escape still not made in RHD for us yet?


Lukeyson

[FPV+fteT3]

It's not just the aussie govt that has a spin department no matter the result the govt will make it work for them even if they have to spend millions on studdies to prove it. Must be great to always be right.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Were there published numbers to either of those lists?

And why is that dang Hybrid Escape still not made in RHD for us yet?


Lukeyson

Here you go.

This is the governments statement about this on their website....

http://www.cars.gov/files/official-i...ust26Stats.pdf

Note that only 59% of the new vehicles purchased were cars.



I guess you have to have a membership at edmonds.com to get access to the article with their numbers, but here is an article that references their information..

http://www.autonews.com/article/2009...NA06/308249953


I suppose you don't have a RHD version of the Escape because the Territory is better anyways, so I am told. I suppose it depends on your needs?



Steve

[Chilla]

Governments of all persuasions work on the old 3B's....."Bullshite baffles brains".

[vztrt]

As long as Ford benefited more from this program then the other makes I'm happy as it brings more cash for R&D.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by vztrt

As long as Ford benefited more from this program then the other makes I'm happy as it brings more cash for R&D.

Agreed. And yes Ohio XB, the territory is better than the escape.

[Ohio XB]

Originally Posted by ltd

Agreed. And yes Ohio XB, the territory is better than the escape.

See Lukeyson, I told you.


Steve

[terri tx]

Originally Posted by Ohio XB

See Lukeyson, I told you.


Steve

Ha ha ha

[Luke Plaizier]

Gee, you're one politically astute player there....! I think that Escapes sold in Oz are built in South Africa though, so I can't give any reciprocal US compliments (although my 8yo eldest was born in San Francisco, and she is quite pretty...!)

Comparisons aside, my point was derailed.

Let me rephrase then. "And why are there no dang Ford Hybrids made in RHD for us yet?"


Lukeyson

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Let me rephrase then. "And why are there no dang Ford Hybrids made in RHD for us yet?"


Lukeyson

Probably could have something to do with the Escape being about as popular as aids in Australia. Which depending on your marketing dept could be every reason to import it, or every reason not to.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Probably could have something to do with the Escape being about as popular as aids in Australia. Which depending on your marketing dept could be every reason to import it, or every reason not to.

They sold 5 Escapes last month. Repeat that, 5.

When are they going to kill it and give us the Kuga.

[Wally]

I'm battling to understand what the govt conspiracy is? That US buyers didn't buy fuel efficient cars in favour of inefficient Fords? That someone is picking on Ford or didn't heap accolades and cudos on them...what?

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Wally

I'm battling to understand

We already knew that.

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by Wally

I'm battling to understand what the govt conspiracy is? That US buyers didn't buy fuel efficient cars in favour of inefficient Fords? That someone is picking on Ford or didn't heap accolades and cudos on them...what?

Well it's not a Govt conspiracy but rather a banker conspiracy.

It's another scam, just like the current GFC. Has nothing to do with getting people to buy more fuel-efficient cars, but has everything to do with getting more people into more debt, all in the hope of delaying the inevitable!

[outback_ute]

Interesting thread Steve. Good to see that companies like Edmunds are on the ball to get real information - I wonder whether the mainstream news agencies ran what they were spoon-fed?

Luke one issue I can see is that the US Escape has moved away from the model sold here (well it used to be). I'm sure the Toyota Prius loses money & is basically a PR exercise, which they can afford - could Ford?

[mrbaxr6t]

I don't know about you guys but I really grow tired of all this evidence shuffling and spin doctoring, and whats more I care nothing for what they tell me because its told to me to push an agenda, so I buy what I like regardless of what they tell me everybody else is doing. When are politicians going to wake up and realize we catch them lying and spin doctoring, and we hate them for it. This also applies to the media, every thing they report seems to be biased in some way, what happened to unbiased reports on the news and on things like car sales and everything else.

[Ohio XB]

I wonder whether the mainstream news agencies ran what they were spoon-fed?

Yes, they did. You can read the government results EVERYWHERE because people like to hate the Big3, and any ammunition is just more for the bandwagon. It is also on most newscasts.

Gee, you're one politically astute player there....!

Two things there, I am open minded and also I am not an arrogant American. Reality is what it is and I like to know what it is so that I don't look like an idiot.

....I also lobbed that one up there on purpose. I like to laugh too.

"And why are there no dang Ford Hybrids made in RHD for us yet?"

People prefer the Territory??

...what happened to unbiased reports on the news and on things like car sales and everything else.

That went out during the 1980's I think.



Steve

[Bent8]

Some light reading...

http://thecomingdepression.blogspot....02-sold-i.html

[chevypower]

I am glad people bought F150s and not Prius.' It was all about stimulating new car sales, and so there was an incentive only up to 2mpg over your old vehicle. It would be nice if they could rule out imports, but that wouldn't be fair to the thousands of dealers and numerous distributors who employ thousands.
One thing I am surprised though. The Ford Escape gained more popularity than the Ford Edge. I personally think the Ford Edge is a much, much, MUCH better vehicle. I know there is no Ford Edge Hybrid at this stage... but still, they weren't all hybrid sales.

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Some light reading...

http://thecomingdepression.blogspot....02-sold-i.html

Wow & only $3 for all the depression survival guides.

[Ohio XB]

I just found that the link I posted in one of my earlier posts is not available to everyone, so here is the article...




Clunker top 10? Depends who's counting
Government, Edmunds have different view

Jesse Snyder
Automotive News
August 24, 2009 - 12:01 am ET

The Toyota Corolla is the No. 1 vehicle purchased under the cash-for-clunkers program, federal administrators say in releases touting the greening of American roads.

No, Edmunds.com says. The top clunker-program purchase is the Ford Escape crossover. The Corolla is No. 5, right behind the Ford F-150 full-sized pickup.

Edmunds.com's top 10 has three crossovers, two pickups and five small or mid-sized sedans. The feds' top 10 has eight cars, two crossovers and no pickups.

Why the difference?

In the government's list, each vehicle with a different drivetrain is counted separately. No. 8, for example, is the Escape with front-wheel drive. The four-wheel-drive Escape is counted separately.

Add up all versions of the Escape, Edmunds.com says, and it tops the list.

That's not the only difference. While the government's database covers all submitted clunker deals, the feds have not released unit sales for the vehicles on its top 10. And the government hasn't released a full list of vehicles in clunker transactions beyond those 10.

Last week, Automotive News requested the complete data under the U.S. Freedom of Information Act. Clunkers administrators say they'll respond within 20 business days.


This following part seems to have been added since I originally posted this topic. Also, this spot in the article is where the table I posted above is located so I am not going to post it again.



Edmunds.com admits its statistics are incomplete. It takes sales numbers supplied by dealers that it says represent 30 percent of all U.S. dealers and extrapolates from the data.

J.D. Power and Associates follows U.S. sales but is not tracking clunker transaction data. Its Power Information Network does not capture which dealer transactions involve clunkers.

"The waters are very, very muddy, and we don't see a chance to unmuddy them," says Power spokesman John Tews.

All agree that most clunker customers are trading in light trucks and buying more fuel-efficient vehicles. But the two lists paint quite different results for the program.

In the government's top 10, Toyota Motor Corp. and Honda Motor Co. dominate with three vehicles each. In Edmunds.com's list, Ford Motor Co. leads all makers with three vehicles, followed by two each for Honda, Toyota and Chrysler Group and one for General Motors Co.

[Falc'man]

Okay then, I'll say it slooowwly... in case you don't understand.

For me to reply "we already knew that", means we didn't expect anything better from you.

The topic is clear, the government is hiding the truth. You don't understand that, you said it yourself.

To ignore this fact only demonstrates how out of touch with reality you are. You remind me of Al Gore.

Have a look at the general response to this here in this thread and you'll find everyone here understands this. Why don't you understand it?

The surprising (sarcasm) part of all this, you decide to defend the government's actions when it is purely aimed at Ford?
....I think you've already been told you're a troll; there is none of your claimed impartiality in your posts in matters where members here voice their disdain with the media's treatment of Ford, or it's products.

In future if you don't have any constructive criticism then it's best you remain silent.

[HSE2]

I won’t be editing any more posts in this thread. I find some of the readable tone as demeaning and not something that is conducive to good respectful exchange of opinions and ideas.

Just once can we have an effort that doesn't end up with personal overtures?

Ian

[Wally]

Thanks Ian.