Mate wants a race

[BLSTIC]

One of my mates want to race me, and he has a VP ute with a mild exhaust (2.25 inch, single system, no extractors) (160,000 kays on it), and im just wanting to know whether i should take up the challenge or not.

I have a 312,000km EF Futura. Bog standard.

I know that the VP has 120-something kw, and my car has around 150, but his ute is lighter.

*its a legal race down the 1/8 mile at Morgan Park, Warwick.

should i race the guy?

or more to the point, will i beat him. (both are 4spd autos)

thanks
Ben

[dansedgli]

No go hide in your hidey hole instead.

What are you scared of? Just race him.

[Damo]

he will probably beat you especialy on 1/8 mile, but you should have fun anyway. Go for it!

[Walkinshaw]

over 1/8th you will be had i think. Over a 1/4 you may pull him in.

[AdzT3-146]

yeah as the others have said he'd probably beat you down the 1/8th but go for it anyway

[mcflux]

I raced a mate over an 1/8 mile track recently and was surprised with the results! Yes, our times weren't the best (equal PBs of 10.32 each) but we were pretty much even for every race (50/50 win/loss + close always)

Mild 351 straight petrol with T5 & 3.23 gears (XC) vs (EB) near-stock 302 with auto & 3.27 gears. I was expecting to get my *** handed to me but was pleasently surprised. You never know if you never go!

Anyhoo, there's fun to be had Legal racing is the bestest!

-Dave-

[BLSTIC]

alright so ill race the bloke
im kinda hoping that he just flattens it off the line and smokes up.

cya
Ben

[neb]

should be fairly close... good luck!

[Steffo]

I don't think a stock-pre VS 6cyl auto will beat a stock-post EF 6cyl auto at anything. 125kW 3.8 V6 vs 157kW 4.0? Plus the 4.0's extra torque...

But yeah, go race, enjoy yourself!

[donno]

Yeah but gay 1st gear plus 3.08 diff. It'll probably still be in 1st at the finish line lol.

[MITCHAY]

I dont get why people have autos if they plan to race them. Could someone explain this as im noticing that a fair amount of people have autos. Do your guys drive them through the gears or leave them in drive? I wouldnt care if i won or lost it would be the rush that counts. Legal speeding has got to be good

[Steffo]

Automatic is faster for drag racing.

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Automatic is faster for drag racing.

But with falcons you need a fair bit of power to make the launch any good.

For example in my turbo EB which ran 13.6 @ 105mph my 60' times were only 2.5 seconds which I have to attibute to the poor gearing of first.

For 'most' 6 cylinder falcons without a high stall a manual would be much better as the ability to launch hard outweighs the drawback of manually changing through the gears. Im still yet to see a 13 second auto 6 cylinder falcon.

But generally yes an auto is better for quarter mile action. I love my autos!!

[MITCHAY]

But the manual will get it off the line faster right? My mate has a 280ZX auto. He gets smashed off the line but once in high speeds all people can do is wave as he passes them. In some cases rapes them completely.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

But the manual will get it off the line faster right? My mate has a 280ZX auto. He gets smashed off the line but once in high speeds all people can do is wave as he passes them. In some cases rapes them completely.

Gearing and traction is what gets you off the line. And in high power, highly modified applications, manual is slower at everything acceleration related. Nothing beats a modded, stalled auto.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Gearing and traction is what gets you off the line. And in high power, highly modified applications, manual is slower at everything acceleration related. Nothing beats a modded, stalled auto.

Hmm interesting. Ive always believed autos were slower. How wrong i am. Still will always drive a manual (hopefully type R next...VTEC yeah baby). Autos are too boring for me. When i get in my mums commy i always reach for the clutch pedal and realize its not there. Sketches me out always lol

[mik]

tell us how ya go with the race, actually i saw a bloke give a comy ute full bore on the westgate freeway ,accelerated ok but flat nacker his top speed looked pretty slow must be limited big time

[neb]

yeah the manuals are definately quicker. but then i think a well setup auto would probably be quicker than the manual (i.e. high stall and shift kit). and manuals only seem good for drag racing up to a certain point... around 12second quarter miles maybe.. then it seems to be better off to change to auto since they tend to be stronger, more reliable and more consistent, and dont stress the driveline as much.

but saying that i much prefer driving manual :P

[The MaDDeSTMaN]

Originally Posted by neb

yeah the manuals are definately quicker. but then i think a well setup auto would probably be quicker than the manual (i.e. high stall and shift kit). and manuals only seem good for drag racing up to a certain point... around 12second quarter miles maybe.. then it seems to be better off to change to auto since they tend to be stronger, more reliable and more consistent, and dont stress the driveline as much.

but saying that i much prefer driving manual :P

Yep, as far as I am aware, it all comes down to gearing and engine power output. The reason a manual will be faster then an auto (I'm talking about factory spec boxes here) is that the gearing is usually better for acceleration in a manual box compared to an auto. The auto can shift quicker, but that isn't much help if the gear ratios are too tall, which is particularly evident in auto falcons where it won't shift up until 70-80km/h. Sure, you can increase the power output of the engine, and that will help, but all other things being equal (we'll forget about the strengths of an auto box to cope with increased power output for the sake of this discussion), a 5 speed manual will always have a distinct advantage over a 4 speed (or 3 speed) auto because of the gear ratios.

That is, until you start making a lot more power then factory, and start comparing replacement gearboxes, which admittedly will come into the picture sooner for manual drivers then their auto counterparts due to the relative weakness of the falcon manual gearboxes.

But hey, that is how I understand it, I could be wrong, wouldn't be the first time.

[MITCHAY]

Yeah i suppose if your gonna beef up a car your gonna upgrade the gearbox too. It just an auto takes out the fun in my case anyway. When you want to overtake someone for example you just drop the gear and rape someone. In an auto you put the foot down and hope for the best. In a manual the difference between winning and losing can come down to a wrong gearshift and thats where driver skill comes in. My understanding is that autos are far more expensive to replace aswell.

[dansedgli]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

When you want to overtake someone for example you just drop the gear and rape someone. In an auto you put the foot down and hope for the best.

Hmmm.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Yeah i suppose if your gonna beef up a car your gonna upgrade the gearbox too. It just an auto takes out the fun in my case anyway. When you want to overtake someone for example you just drop the gear and rape someone. In an auto you put the foot down and hope for the best. In a manual the difference between winning and losing can come down to a wrong gearshift and thats where driver skill comes in. My understanding is that autos are far more expensive to replace aswell.

When you're talking high power outputs, manuals are wildly expensive for less result then automatic transmissions. The best T56 I know of (and one of the best street-car manuals).. the G-Force T56.. rated to handle 900hp and 800ftlbs of torque.. costs $4,695.00 US outright.

One of my favourite automatics.. the Lentech Ford AOD-E 4spd, rated to handle 1500hp and 1100ftlbs of torque.. costs $2,795.00 US outright.

And generally, in a high-powered drag application, the auto does not self shift. If its a 4spd, for example, you get this shift pattern...
P
R
N
4
3
2
1

All you do is push the selector in the gear you want. Much faster shifting then any manual can (let go of accelerator, clutch in, move gear selector, clutch out, accelerate). You can also get 'reverse pattern' auto's in which the the shift pattern looks like...
P
R
N
1
2
3
4

So that you pull the gears when accelerating instead of pushing. If I'm not mistaken, a stock T56 6spd costs more then the stock BTR M97LE 4spd in BA Falcon's also.

[MITCHAY]

Hmmm. Is this because its got 6 gears instead of 4. Very interesting im learning a bit here.

[mcflux]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

When you want to overtake someone for example you just drop the gear and rape someone. In an auto you put the foot down and hope for the best.

My BA tiptronic says otherwise :the_finge

Also keep in mind those people with shift kits. How much will a shift kit set you back? Mine = $11.50

-Dave-

[BlueRaven]

I think it depends on the application. If you were circuit racing than a manual is the only way (apart from a modded auto I guess), but drags seems to see the auto win.

[neb]

to be honest i think i actually change gears faster in a manual than what a factory falcon auto does.. they tend to be kind of slow/smooth changing stock. and with the manualised autos i still think you can change just as quick with a normal manual transmission.

(let go of accelerator, clutch in, move gear selector, clutch out, accelerate) ... its more like (start changing gear, clutch in while letting off acelerator a little, put into gear, clutch out, accelerate).. it all sort of happens at the same time basically, very quickly.

[MITCHAY]

Yeah its weird with autos for me. When i drive my mums commy and put the foot down it wont change gear until you back off. But its smooth to say the least. Whenever i hear an auto being flogged it sounds so bad cause it sounds like its being strained hard.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by neb

to be honest i think i actually change gears faster in a manual than what a factory falcon auto does.. they tend to be kind of slow/smooth changing stock. and with the manualised autos i still think you can change just as quick with a normal manual transmission.

(let go of accelerator, clutch in, move gear selector, clutch out, accelerate) ... its more like (start changing gear, clutch in while letting off acelerator a little, put into gear, clutch out, accelerate).. it all sort of happens at the same time basically, very quickly.

You can't shift as fast as a manulised auto with a H-pattern manual. All the auto driver does is push (or pull, if its reverse pattern) the shifter into the next slot.

The only faster shifting transmissions are sequential manual's or "manu-matics" such as BMW's SMG or VW's DSG.. Ferrari's F1 gearbox, Lamborghini's E-Gear etc etc.

[turboute]

Originally Posted by neb

to be honest i think i actually change gears faster in a manual than what a factory falcon auto does.. they tend to be kind of slow/smooth changing stock. and with the manualised autos i still think you can change just as quick with a normal manual transmission.

You are probably right as the shifting (esp in older falcons) isn't that quick, also the shift points may not be where you want. There are upgrades in the way of replacing shifting solenoids that can combat this.

[klawsterfobik]

IMO, you cant compare a stock auto box ie, in your Mums Commie to that used in drag racing. As has been said, stock auto boxes are set up to deal with normal driving conditions, everyday, getting good fuel economy, and nice soft shifts so that you dont notice it.

A racing auto box is a hell of a lot different, fuel economy doesnt factor into it, the harder (read: shorter) the shift the better, it will be geared shorter to get you off the line nice and quick, and the shift points are going to be tuned to where you engine makes it power.

I can throw my auto Cortina back into 2nd when cruising around, and like you said it goes no where. But do it in a box thats designed to race, and all you'll be doing is holding on.