Falcon doomed from 2010

Cuey · 10-06-2008, 01:44 PM

With the announcement today that Toyota will start building Hybrid Camry's from early 2010 (Fuel Economy of 5.6L/100km) and GM Asia Pacific boss also saying that a hybrid commodore in 2010 is likely, where does this leave the Falcon???

The signs are not bright

http://www.caradvice.com.au/13410/to...ry-production/

Fev · 10-06-2008, 01:47 PM

It leaves ford to get their hybrid division up and quick smart!

2fishingdogs · 10-06-2008, 01:48 PM

I hope they can pull a rabbit out of a hat, cause short of that I don't think they got anything

blueoval · 10-06-2008, 01:51 PM

If ford go down this path, I hope they dont sacrifice too much power in an effort to reduce emissions. Thats my personal concern.

bangm001 · 10-06-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

If ford go down this path, I hope they dont sacrifice too much power in an effort to reduce emissions. Thats my personal concern.

Thats my concern with every manufacturer, and what will probably keep people like us away from hybrids or electric till they get their stuff sorted.. Or will the population forget what is is like to drive a powerful Turbo or V8 in an everyday car and like europeans, call a 3L capacity engine massive! Hope not!

SB076 · 10-06-2008, 01:54 PM

I thought GM (US) were against hybrids, they were working on either Hydrogen or plug in vehicles. Will be interesting to see what Ford have up there sleeve for the Falcon (apart from diesel)

Romulus · 10-06-2008, 01:57 PM

With an abundance of CNG in WA I've always wondered why there hasn't been a push to get vehicles to run on this.

BAxtER · 10-06-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6 XR6T

With an abundance of CNG in WA I've always wondered why there hasn't been a push to get vehicles to run on this.

+1 on this comment.

Abacus · 10-06-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6 XR6T

With an abundance of CNG in WA I've always wondered why there hasn't been a push to get vehicles to run on this.

Because it doesn't liquify as easily as LPG. It's stored as compressed gas (hence the "C" in CNG), rather than as a liquid (the "L" in LPG), and takes up a lot of storage volume.

You need bloody big storage tanks to take you not very far. It's OK for busses and the like that can have racks of tanks along their roofs, but it's not practicable for cars.

It takes ages to fill the tanks, also.

Romulus · 10-06-2008, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus

Because it doesn't liquify as easily as LPG. It's stored as compressed gas (hence the "C" in CNG), rather than as a liquid (the "L" in LPG), and takes up a lot of storage volume.

You need bloody big storage tanks to take you not very far. It's OK for busses and the like that can have racks of tanks along their roofs, but it's not practicable for cars.

It takes ages to fill the tanks, also.

Stange that, I remember as a wee kid the old man's brand new XD 4.1l column shift auto ute being run on CNG in the early 80's in NZ.

Surely technology hasn't remained stagnant for the last 25 years???

Necessity is the mother of all inventions. With hundreds of years of CNG reserves off the Norwest shelf there'd have to be some interest in utilising it, and selling it at a cheaper rate than LPG.

IMO alternative fuels like LPG, CNG and hydrogen should be pursued as opposed to hybrid (battery) cars. These battery cars create unique and seperate issues (such as poor cell life and where to dispose of used cells) which are often ignored when promoting them.

Abacus · 10-06-2008, 04:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6 XR6T

Surely technology hasn't remained stagnant for the last 25 years???

Technology has, but the basic physical properties of natural gas haven't. In fact they haven't changed for a few million years.

Quote:

Necessity is the mother of all inventions. With hundreds of years of CNG reserves off the Norwest shelf there'd have to be some interest in utilising it, and selling it at a cheaper rate than LPG.

IMO alternative fuels like LPG, CNG and hydrogen should be pursued as opposed to hybrid (battery) cars. These battery cars create unique and seperate issues (such as poor cell life and where to dispose of used cells) which are often ignored when promoting them.

It's horses for courses. Different fuels suit different applications. LPG is good for smallish motor vehicles like cars. CNG isn't. On the other hand CNG makes sense on a bus because they have the roof space to store the tanks.

This thread has more info:

CNG

In that thread PoweredByCNG notes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Basically it's because natural gas (a.k.a. CH4 a.k.a. methane gas) has different properties when compared to LPG (autogas - a mixture of propane and butane). A mixture of propane and butane readily liquefies under a relatively small amount of pressure. For natural gas to liquefy, it needs to be stored at a temperature of -161oC. Hence at a storage pressure of maximum 200 bar, natural gas is stored in gaseous form. To give you an estimate on mileage per fill, a natural gas fuelled bus (inline 6-cylinder 12-litre turbocharged/intercooled gas injected engine) with an array of 7 gas cylinders holding a liquid capacity of 1055L can travel up to 450km without refuelling, based on maximum fill pressure of 200 bar.

Regards,
Dave

and:

Quote:

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Sorry for going off topic.

Yes, for the average Joe, unless you fit your house/garage/etc. with a dedicated fuelling system, it isn't practical to run a natural gas vehicle.

tapeworm · 11-06-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus

Because it doesn't liquify as easily as LPG. It's stored as compressed gas (hence the "C" in CNG), rather than as a liquid (the "L" in LPG), and takes up a lot of storage volume.

You need bloody big storage tanks to take you not very far. It's OK for busses and the like that can have racks of tanks along their roofs, but it's not practicable for cars.

It takes ages to fill the tanks, also.

I think this is the way too, from what I understand, gas injection looses sweet F/A power and economy over petrol and is fairly cheap. It would do well IMHO

Bossxr8 · 11-06-2008, 07:21 PM

Ford have said they will not build hybrids here, they are focussing on LPG technology and diesel. That must mean injected LPG should be a goer for the V6. Is a way smarter solution than hybrid, saves way more money in running costs than a hybrid ever could.

Hyundai are using LPG Hybrids in Korea, and are evaluating them for sale here. Ford should try that, it would be so cheap to run.

nugget378 · 10-06-2008, 03:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6 XR6T

With an abundance of CNG in WA I've always wondered why there hasn't been a push to get vehicles to run on this.

Even if its developed in a successfull way,all that will happen is the oil/mining companies will jack the price up so its as costly as petrol to run..

schnoods · 10-06-2008, 03:46 PM

Well look how long toyota prius' have been on the market for. And how many get around.

Im sure there is only a small percentage of new car buyers that even contemplated a hybrid let alone test drive one and then went on to buy one.

It could also be a nail in the coffin at the same time for ford if they do go ahead with one. Development costs would be extremely high, a afew minor recalls and loss of sales in their traditional large family car and fleet department as well.

http://business.theage.com.au/35m-fo...0610-2ob5.html

It doesnt help either when the government doesnt want to support the local either.

mrniceguy · 12-06-2008, 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

Even if its developed in a successfull way,all that will happen is the oil/mining companies will jack the price up so its as costly as petrol to run..

Dunno about that. Remember natural gas is used in evey house. Would be an almighty storm if they started jacking the price up. And at 17c a litre its got a long way to go till it reaches parity with petrol.

DJMaRV · 21-04-2010, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrniceguy

Dunno about that. Remember natural gas is used in evey house. Would be an almighty storm if they started jacking the price up. And at 17c a litre its got a long way to go till it reaches parity with petrol.

sounds funny now that gas is actually on the rise...
it will be a sad day when oil/petrol power is superseded with more economical designs....

remember the hyrbid an electic type cars might look strange an go like a sack of ____, but our cars wernt all to flash to start with either...

anyone seen the anime 'Akira'?....i want one of those things!!!

Bucket · 10-06-2008, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M6 XR6T

With an abundance of CNG in WA I've always wondered why there hasn't been a push to get vehicles to run on this.

40 TCF to be precise (Forty-Trillion-Cubic-Feet of Gas)

Fev · 10-06-2008, 01:58 PM

i reckon that thing with the new accords, the smart cylinder stuff where it only uses 3 4 cyl for cruising, 5 for normal accelerating and all sick fi you boot it(which means you would mostly use 4cyl's for daily driving therefore getting the fuel consumption of a 4 banger most of the time) would be a great idea if they could introduce it into the fords

XR Martin · 10-06-2008, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fev

i reckon that thing with the new accords, the smart cylinder stuff where it only uses 3 4 cyl for cruising, 5 for normal accelerating and all sick fi you boot it(which means you would mostly use 4cyl's for daily driving therefore getting the fuel consumption of a 4 banger most of the time) would be a great idea if they could introduce it into the fords

But its economy was only slightly better than a G6E in a recent test.

Abacus · 10-06-2008, 03:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

But its economy was only slightly better than a G6E in a recent test.

Yep. A Falcon on LPG costs about half as much to run as a Camry.

Abacus · 10-06-2008, 01:59 PM

I don't see the connection.

GMs chairman has said on a number of occassions that GM loses money on every hybrid car they produce.

GM Volt

I would rather see Ford focus on getting a state of the art Liquid Injection LPG system up and running on the 2010 V6. It would be less expensive, more marketable, and more profitable han a hybrid.

DanielXR8 · 10-06-2008, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus

I don't see the connection.

GMs chairman has said on a number of occassions that GM loses money on every hybrid car they produce.

GM Volt

I would rather see Ford focus on getting a state of the art Liquid Injection LPG system up and running on the 2010 V6. It would be less expensive, more marketable, and more profitable han a hybrid.

A next generation LPG system would make perfect sense and a good choice for most people. My worry is that most people don't understand the benefits of LPG and think it is already so "yesterday" when all they hear is hybrids or electric. Never mind the reality.

Ford would have to spend a LOT of money to convince the public of the benefits of LPG to get over the idea that it wasn't cool or green enough.

Ironically Holden getting into LPG is a good thing. Ford and Holden could work on promoting LPG together. At the end of the day Toyota is hammering them both at the moment and they have a common interest in keeping large cars viable.

Dan

fordfalconbaxr6 · 10-06-2008, 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cuey

With the announcement today that Toyota will start building Hybrid Camry's from early 2010 (Fuel Economy of 5.6L/100km) and GM Asia Pacific boss also saying that a hybrid commodore in 2010 is likely, where does this leave the Falcon???

The signs are not bright

http://www.caradvice.com.au/13410/to...ry-production/

I'm with you Cuey.

I think we are in big trouble in regard to the Falcon. Sales figures and financial viability are borderline, there are no exports of the Falcon and fuel prices are skyrocketing. (huge exports help to keep Commodores viable)

I would be gutted if we lost the Falcon, so I hope Ford can perform a minor miracle and ensure Falcon's future.

Jezza_m · 10-06-2008, 03:13 PM

Just fyi toyota already sell camry's in the states that are hybrids

jabba · 10-06-2008, 03:19 PM

GM will also be launching there Volt (electric car) world wide in 2010...

Abacus · 10-06-2008, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabba

GM will also be launching there Volt (electric car) world wide in 2010...

Yes, and as per my earlier post they lose money on every one of them.

Is this what we want Ford Australia to do? How on earth does that help their commercial viability?

jabba · 10-06-2008, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus

Yes, and as per my earlier post they lose money on every one of them.

Is this what we want Ford Australia to do? How on earth does that help their commercial viability?

I don't really care what Ford does. And with more hybrid cars on the sale lot, the big Ford Falcon is going to suffer a painful death unless they come up with a viable solution. And diesel is not it, unless they price the diesel motor and it's servicing the same as petrol engines....

Personally, I am looking forward to the release off the Volt, and I will more then likely buy one also.... Regardless if GM makes a loss out off the sale or not..

Abacus · 10-06-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jabba

I don't really care what Ford does. And with more hybrid cars on the sale lot, the big Ford Falcon is going to suffer a painful death unless they come up with a viable solution. And diesel is not it, unless they price the diesel motor and it's servicing the same as petrol engines....

Personally, I am looking forward to the release off the Volt, and I will more then likely buy one also.... Regardless if GM makes a loss out off the sale or not..

Just do a cost/benefit analysis first.

Those batteries don't last forever, and when they have to be replaced the car is probably at the end of its economic lfe.

I looked at getting a Prius earlier this year, and battery life is the great unknown. Toyota warrant the batteries for 5 years, and then what?

On a total cost of ownership model LPG is very hard to beat.

Oh, and if you would buy a Volt to be environmentally friendly, spare a thought for where the electricity comes from. There's a not-so clean and enviromentally friendly coal fired power station at the other end of the power line.

jabba · 10-06-2008, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abacus

Just do a cost/benefit analysis first.

Those batteries don't last forever, and when they have to be replaced the car is probably at the end of its economic lfe.

I looked at getting a Prius earlier this year, and battery life is the great unknown. Toyota warrant the batteries for 5 years, and then what?

On a total cost of ownership model LPG is very hard to beat.

Oh, and if you would buy a Volt to be environmentally friendly, spare a thought for where the electricity comes from. There's a not-so clean and enviromentally friendly coal fired power station at the other end of the power line.

Well firstly I have never owned a car for longer then 3 years before we upgraded or replaced with a new car.. So if the battery does last for 5 years, that is sweet for me... The person that owns the car after me can deal with that problem...

And where the electricity comes from is the least off my concerns, as I am not a greeny. An electric car will be great for a second family car, an especially for the wife's car, especialy if we can axe her fuel bill