Last Generation?

[jphanna]

With the oil companies slowly and gradually putting the squeeze on the world with the demand (car numbers increasing) on diminishing oil supplies, I think its clear that our generation may be the last to enjoy big powerful cars. If it wasn’t for the Global economic crisis, look at what was happening to oil/petrol prices. A barrel of oil got up to $160.00, and was climbing EVERY day by a few dollars. Look at whats happening now, the price is very slowly creeping up to pre GEC prices again. $1.28.9 today

All this hybrid/hydrogen/electric debate started going into overdrive (excuse the pun). How many more years before the traditional big aussie family/performance car will not be sustainable? 10 years max? we can drive what we have now, big cars with big engines/grunt, for a little while now. Our grandkids will be driving prius/smart car/hydrogen eco friendly type cars. I don’t know how these eco friendly type cars will be able to tow boats or caravans (can you imagine reversing an electric car or prius into a boat ramp….)

I decided to buy an LPG car at the height of the barrel/petrol prices (I chose a VE over a BF because my kids kneeboard wouldn’t fit in the raised boot of the LPG falcon!), but even my car WONT start without petrol in the tank, then it changes over to LPG automatically. My EA duel fuel was an unexpected acquisition as my dad died, so I have 2 LPG cars, but I am still RELIANT on petrol for both.

Do you think your grandkids will be driving 1800KG cars with 4-6 litre engines….dont think so.

Enjoy your big powerful cars now while you can, we may be the last to do so

[Mr Hardware]

Do you think your grandkids will be driving 1800KG cars with 4-6 litre engines….dont think so.

Yep, i reckon they will. Look at the differences between a 1969 XW Falcon and a brand new falcon... ~1.5t, ~25mpg, ~4l. Nothings changed in 40 years, and nothing will in the next 40. Remember in the early eighties with the oil shock where they said there's only about 10 more years of oil left? Yeah, i'm not worried. But i will still keep on using LPG.
But i do see what you're saying, something could happen. This is the golden era of motoring, top performance, big as you like car, electric everything on the inside. I'm just glad i've got a falc with no TC/ABS/EBD/ESC yada yada, if it can't be fixed with opposite lock, it can't be fixed.

[Raptor]

You need to stop equatic 'big and powerful' with 'heavy and (oil)thirsty'.

Once that paradigm changes we'll be on our way. I'm quite looking forward to proper electric cars. All that torque available from zero revs :

Maybe then everone will realise how pointless peak power figures are for real-world everyday driver cars :

Oil/petrol has been a fantastic fuel, very energy dense. LPG is the smart choice in this country to lessen our dependance on it and as a bridging fuel while the new technologies are developed but I'm convinced electric power is the future for transport.

How to best generate and store that electricty is a topic for another thread.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by Raptor

You need to stop equatic 'big and powerful' with 'heavy and (oil)thirsty'.

Once that paradigm changes we'll be on our way. I'm quite looking forward to proper electric cars. All that torque available from zero revs :


How to best generate and store that electricty is a topic for another thread.

Exactly, whats faster and more powerful, diesel train or electric?

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by JG66ME

Exactly, whats faster and more powerful, diesel train or electric?

Ahh Diesel trains are electric. The diesel engine is just a big generator.
MAD you beat me to it

But I agree with Raptor, electric is the way to go. Electric motors can be extremely powerful. It's battery storage that needs to be improved

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Powdered Toast Man

Ahh Diesel trains are electric. The diesel engine is just a big generator.
MAD you beat me to it

But I agree with Raptor, electric is the way to go. Electric motors can be extremely powerful. It's battery storage that needs to be improved

Not all of them, There were lots of diesel hydraulic locos built at Walkers in Maryborough and operated all over Australia

e.g.

http://www.arhsact.org.au/rollingstock/7315.php

[MAD]

Diesel Trains are electric.
That big motor spins an electric generator.

[Citric GT]

Originally Posted by MAD

Diesel Trains are electric.
That big motor spins an electric generator.

Not always. Plenty of diesel-hydroulics out there...

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by MAD

Diesel Trains are electric.
That big motor spins an electric generator.

Not all, for example

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VLocity

These are the ones I consider slow. They have a Voith T312 hydraulic transmission.

[jphanna]

I dont think that the oil will run out while we are driving around with our big cars, but they are starting to toy with us. in July the barrel was $160.00 and petrol got to around 1.60 a litre. with the GEC the barrels got down to 40.00, and petrol got down to 90.00 cents a litre, now the barrel crept up to $43.00 and all of a sudden we are up to 1.28.9 a litre. what happens when the barrels get up to 160.00 again?

Once the GEC starts to settle (maybe 12-24 months??) then it will be interesting to see how it pans out. lucky LPG is abundant in Australia , with both my cars, but i still use heaps of petrol every week for my jet ski.

[Burnout]

The reason Crude went to $160 US was due to speculators on the oil futures market.

They borrowed money, invested it in futures betting oil would rise, so it spiraled up in price, (there was some demand factors involved).

However they, the speculators, are all broke now & cant borrow money cause the Yanks have no money to lend them.

A rather simplistic view, but true.

[XWGT]

Electrical motors generate much more torque than petrol engines........so dont be surprised if Gen 2 or 3 of the electric revolution includes some seriously quick vehicles.

[mrbaxr6t]

hydrogen and pure oxygen to aid combustion is the way to go - split on demand from water. Its been done and many are working to replicate it, thing is when people work it out they "vanish" wonder why...........

Problem with electric is all you are doing is shifting the dependence from crude oil to coal another non renewable fossil fuel........ If solar cells really begin to whip then maybe electric cars will be the answer then.

[onfire]

I think long story short, as point out by someone on here I think it was. They rave about Hybrids and how every one is driving one these days.. come on, when was the last time you saw a significant number of them on the roads over the course of a week?

Oil companies have too much invested into the market, developing and making a new source of fuel a mainstream standard and replacement for oil is a hard task. I dare say we'll see the big 6s and 8s on the road for quite some time.

I dont think there is cause for concern. Theres always going to be market for oil. Its not like its all going to change over the course of a week, and every petrol station is replaced with battery recharging infrastructure. Theres still people driving 20+ year old cars today as their only means of transport, theres still going to be enthusiasts with cars pre-dating the 1970s. Theres still going to be young people buying cheap older cars.

Within a few generations maybe. So lets give them 40 odd years to design a hybrid that doesnt look like my Nana's car. If you can make an electric large sedan that moves and drives like a traditional 6 or 8 in every way.. theres no excuses not to buy one.

[madmelon]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

hydrogen and pure oxygen to aid combustion is the way to go - split on demand from water. Its been done and many are working to replicate it, thing is when people work it out they "vanish" wonder why...........

Problem with electric is all you are doing is shifting the dependence from crude oil to coal another non renewable fossil fuel........ If solar cells really begin to whip then maybe electric cars will be the answer then.

...those concepts would have vanished when the creators were told/realised they had attempted to invent a perpetual motion machine. It take slightly more energy to split the water into hydrogen and oxygen than the process of burning it, let alone the fact that the most efficient of internal combustion engines (huge MAN diesel in a ship) only claims about 50% of that energy back as crankshaft output- Cars are closer to 30%.

Hydrogen from water on the go can't be done- it's the laws of physics.

Liquid fuels are very very convenient for (hopefully) obvious reasons. As a young engineer, I'm greatly looking forwards to the onset of biologically produced oils from algae- I believe this is far more sustainable and environmentally friendly than any other option, including (actually, especially) electricity.

All these "wonderful" proposed electric vehicles will no doubt reduce emissions of fossil fuels but everyone seems to overlook the irrepairable damage done to the environment for their construction. The metals required for the batteries is turning pristine wilderness into desolate wasteland. This is a MASSIVE issue in Canada and I'm suprised and greatly disappointed that the electric sham hasn't been exposed for the environmental assasin it really is.

[XR6_190]

I don't think that Hybrids are the answer, they are more of a stopgap, they still rely heavily on oil. Hydrogen cars however, that is the way of the future. The only current
hydrogen car on the market is the Honda FCX but that is getting rave reviews on just how normal it is, just like a petrol car only not. I honestly think Hydrogen fuel cells are the way of the future, and probably only about 10 - 12 years away from mainstream usage. That said I hope it is only an option, as I would like to think that in 15 years time, I will still be able to buy something equivalent to a GT or similar, not to mention exotics like Ferraris and Lamborghinis.

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

I don't think that Hybrids are the answer, they are more of a stopgap, they still rely heavily on oil. Hydrogen cars however, that is the way of the future. The only current
hydrogen car on the market is the Honda FCX but that is getting rave reviews on just how normal it is, just like a petrol car only not. I honestly think Hydrogen fuel cells are the way of the future, and probably only about 10 - 12 years away from mainstream usage. That said I hope it is only an option, as I would like to think that in 15 years time, I will still be able to buy something equivalent to a GT or similar, not to mention exotics like Ferraris and Lamborghinis.

What he said. :

[Jondalar]

I can't help but think there's a lot more crude out there than the Oil companies let on. My brother works in oil exploration and they are still finding more all the time. I actually think all the BS about global supposed warming is more likely to push change away to other forms of propulsion than running out of crude. If people are so concerned with CO2 why keep cutting down natures machines for converting it: TREES.

Anyway, no I don't think in 40 years that big V8's will be common. Sadly.

[TUF_302]

I think v8s will be around for a bit longer, i think this oil crisis and all that is just scare tactics to a degree, best way for the government to change things is to scare it into people!

[jphanna]

Due to a variety of reasons i never owned a V8 and its unlikely i will at this stage, but I did grow up in the period when the GTHO/XU1/GTS/RT 6pack chargers were in the showrooms of local dealers. Then we progressed into the Brock commodores in the 80's then HSV then TICKFORD and now FPV.

Whatever the future holds for car enthusiasts, they may be smoother and more energy efficient etc, but i doubt it will sound better that any of those cars mentioned above. My street is just off one of one of the more popular 'back roads' that winds through the hills in adelaide. Just about every Sunday morning i get to hear and see some of those old beasts in full song for their weekly thrash.....its heaven.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Jondalar

I can't help but think there's a lot more crude out there than the Oil companies let on. My brother works in oil exploration and they are still finding more all the time. I actually think all the BS about global supposed warming is more likely to push change away to other forms of propulsion than running out of crude. If people are so concerned with CO2 why keep cutting down natures machines for converting it: TREES.

Anyway, no I don't think in 40 years that big V8's will be common. Sadly.

This is the field i work in at sea, and while its true the seismic survey mobs are still finding more oil/gas fields the problem is they are further out to sea and in deeper water. To make it financialy viable to recover these deposits the price of a barrel will need to go back up to $160+ mark again, the costs of the resorces involved in recovering this stuff from these depths is mind boggling, and the deeper you go the more expensive it is.

When the price of a barrel was $160 the offshore oil and gas industry, as it is known, could not get enough ships and oil rigs, the amount of new builds going on around the world was staggering, almost as staggering is the amount of cancelled projects and new builds since the GEC and the fall in price of a barrel of oil. The Keppel Yard in West Jurong in Singapore had about 20 new build oil drilling rigs on the go, all work has been stopped on these since Dec 08, and wont be started until it becomes financialy viable again, ie: per barrel goes up again.

And while it is popular to throw around the old conspiracy theories regarding oil companies, there is no secret agenda on this issue, the relatively easy stuff has already been found and IS running out, if we want to keep using fossil fuels from here on in then we are going to have to pay more for them to recover it.

As for the big V8s in the near future, i think they will become a top end luxury item for the well heeled, or just die out.............

[xtremerus]

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

And while it is popular to throw around the old conspiracy theories regarding oil companies, there is no secret agenda on this issue, the relatively easy stuff has already been found and IS running out, if we want to keep using fossil fuels from here on in then we are going to have to pay more for them to recover it.

well said

[Transfiguring R]

Shale oil. There's lots of it in Canada and America, even here in Australia. We have oil for more than 100 hundred years still. The problem is making the shale oil more economically viable and being able to produce it fast enough.

Also, what Jondalar said about exploration.

The whole scare thing seems to be centered around the fact that there have been no GIANTS discovered like the fields in Saudi Arabia...

Also, Australia I believe is set to become, or has the potential to become, the largest producer of lpg in the world. The north western shelf is loaded.

[whynot]

Lest put aside the fact that there is a few hundred years of various forms of gas available to power automobiles. Also put aside there is over one hundred years of shale oil available in known reserves. Lest skip a few hundred years into the future when a portable Mr Fusion is installed in every car. There are a few things that will be certain;
1. Environmentalists will still be decrying the damage.
2. The roads will be even more gridlocked
3. There will still be pimply faced teenagers trying to figure out a way of making their car go faster.

[Daymoe]

Electric cars aren't an environmentally friendly car...... YET. Majority of our power is from brown coal, so you've gone from burning petrol in cars emitting pollutants, to powering your car from brown coal which is pretty much worse. Plus mining nickel for the batteries as seen in the Toyota Prius environmental dead zone case.

Unless we went nuclear, then we'd just need to find somewhere to dispose of the waste. Which I reckon would be the best idea for us since we're sitting on a huge amount of Uranium.

[Iggypoppin']

burn up that fuel boys! We won't be alive when ish hits the fan truly

[mik]

i can`t see internal combustion engines leaving in a hurry....they are very versatile, maybe 50 year`s or so perhaps when petrol is very expensive they might change to some other propulsion ,but there are always fuel alternatives.

[needaXYGT]

A 747 uses more fuel in one 20 hour trip, than an entire F1 season. Just thought id throw it in there.

[ltd_on20s]

while this is a rather simplistic view.... oil is just dead organic matter compressed under heat and load

oil can be made from pretty much anything organic

plants, animals even humans (just an example no advocating of compressing dead humans)

but not just that, any old rubber, plastics etc its base is mde from petroleum products

there is a few plants now operating in the US and their sole purpose it to make old crap back into oil(Re above, minus humans of course) is to try and emulate the oil making process in a much shorter time frame

time shall see if these guys can open a new way of making oil and breaking some of these oil companies monopolies.

by the way, all these people who say it cost a lot of money to find oil, fair enough, but BP's quartely profit in oct 2008 was over $10 BILLION, and thats one quarter for one company

its obscene and yes we are getting the short end of the stick.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ltd_on20s

....there is a few plants now operating in the US and their sole purpose it to make old crap back into oil...

But surely that uses more energy than could ever be released from the manufactured oil. Where does that energy come from :

One for the 'only in the US' files.....