Battery Questions

Mr Hardware · 10-06-2010, 02:12 PM

So Big Red decided on tuesday that she didn't want to start

So i jumped her off the commodore and she ran fine for that day
then i tried her again yesterday, started fine
went to drive her today, row-row-click-click-click.

Now the battery is a Comet 520CCA that's only just over 2yrs old

Now I haven't done much troubleshooting, but I want to find out whether it is the battery or some kind of drain coming from the car. It's not the Alt, my multimeter tells me that she's giving the battery a healthy 14.10v whilst the car is running and sitting on 12.15v whilst the car is off.

Obviously the easy way is to check is to charge the battery and simply take the leads off the battery terminals and leave it for a couple of days, and if it starts its a drain and if it doesn't it's the battery.

However i'd like to use the car and resolve this before a couple of days time.

A mate of mine said to me, get your multimeter, take the negative terminal off the battery, change the multimeter positive probe to the other socket on the multimeter, then switch the multimeter to amps and put the positive probe on the negative battery terminal and the negative probe on the negative lead (or vice versa? doesn't matter?). If it registers anything other than 0 then i've got a drain.

Is this correct?

Also, if need be, where's a cheap place to buy batteries? I'm sure the servo or supercheap isn't necessarily the best place, right?

Eleanor · 10-06-2010, 02:34 PM

Just replaced the battery in my AU yesterday. Cold (below 4 degrees) mornings here have killed it and it was a three and a half year old Century battery.

I ended up with an Exide X56D from KMart Tyre and Auto here, for $160. It's 560cca. The other battery I was looking at (after recommendations from members on AFF for both these) was a SuperCharge MF50 Gold 600cca for $155 at one of the Battery shops in town.

It just so happened I was closer to KMart when the battery failed so I went there.

A 2 year lifespan out of a battery is not unheard of these days. Have you talked to Comet in Brisbane about it?

If you can get the specific gravity in the battery cells tested it will be a quick indicator if any of the cells and plates have failed (if it's not a sealed battery).

Mr Hardware · 10-06-2010, 02:56 PM

No I haven't talked to comet. Perhaps I should take the car there and get them to test it. And to tear em a new one.

Eleanor · 10-06-2010, 03:05 PM

I guess it's out of warranty? The Exide and Supercharge batteries I looked at both have a 3 year warranty (on manufacturing defects obviously) so I was happy with that even if the batteries were a little dearer than some of the stuff on the shelves out there.

**GasoLane** · 10-06-2010, 03:54 PM

Most basic batteries only last about 2 years these days and usually pack it in at the start of winter (You have heard of winter up there, haven't you?)

If you take to an auto elec he should be able to hook up something highly teck-nick-all to see if anything is draining the battery...Like a boot light staying on.

Mr Hardware · 10-06-2010, 04:53 PM

Yeah it's got a 24mth warranty and it's about 26 or 27 months old.
And yes, gaso, i think i saw it dip under 15deg at about 4 in the morning so that's really really cold.

SirHenry · 10-06-2010, 07:02 PM

Can't say anything about Exide as I have never had any experiences with them but Supercharge IMHO are the biggest heap of junk I have ever put in a vehicle. Quite a few people I know have also had some less than happy experiences from them as well. (not sure on the Gold ones, ones I had were base models)

My personal preference is the Bosch Gold had mine for 3 1/2 years and its still going strong. was only about $120.00 too from memory.

Anyone able to shed any light on the Motorcraft ones?

grandpa_spec_F6 · 12-06-2010, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Yeah it's got a 24mth warranty and it's about 26 or 27 months old.
And yes, gaso, i think i saw it dip under 15deg at about 4 in the morning so that's really really cold.

Got down to 9 degrees here, gotta love early morning starts.

My last battery died after about 6 months of owning the car, and I think that one only lasted 2 and a half years going by the sticker on it.

I've got one of the RACQ batteries in my car at the moment, delivered and installed it was $150

ronwest · 10-06-2010, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

A mate of mine said to me, get your multimeter, take the negative terminal off the battery, change the multimeter positive probe to the other socket on the multimeter, then switch the multimeter to amps and put the positive probe on the negative battery terminal and the negative probe on the negative lead (or vice versa? doesn't matter?). If it registers anything other than 0 then i've got a drain.

Is this correct?

Yes, I think that's it. It's a while since I've done it but it should test for leaking diodes. Last time I checked for leaking diodes it was on a Commo and they were leaking 4amps (48watts). Alternator rebuild and all was well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Also, if need be, where's a cheap place to buy batteries? I'm sure the servo or supercheap isn't necessarily the best place, right?

I bought my last battery from Bursons. Quoted $132 but when I asked if that was the best they could do he changed it to $112. Worth asking the question

Mr Hardware · 10-06-2010, 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronwest

Yes, I think that's it. It's a while since I've done it but it should test for leaking diodes. Last time I checked for leaking diodes it was on a Commo and they were leaking 4amps (48watts). Alternator rebuild and all was well.

Right. Well i put my multimeter on it tonight and i got a grand total of 0.02A. Whoop-de-do. Well at least I know it's a cactus battery rather than anything wrong with me falc.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronwest

I bought my last battery from Bursons. Quoted $132 but when I asked if that was the best they could do he changed it to $112. Worth asking the question

Yeah I actually thought 'bursons' after I asked.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Auturbo6

Hey Hardware, never thought of posting an obvious thread to see what conspires below. LOL. Awsome..... Later.......

Thanks mate. It's hard to believe it's been almost half a decade since i've been swingin off a spanner to make a buck so sometimes I just like to check. Plus you never know what nuggets of info people have stored up that just might be the solution!

**George V** · 11-06-2010, 08:44 AM

Hi,

If you live in warmer climate then avoid sealed batteries. Loss of electrolyte / drying out due to higher temperatures shortens battery lifespan. Topping up once in awhile and an occasional full charge help in extending battery life.

Once it looses its ability to hold charge, it is gone.

Hope it helps.

Cheers,

sd1800 · 11-06-2010, 09:41 AM

In regards to battery life, the Century battery I bought for the EB only last 21 months which I thought was pretty pathetic. It would hold charge but as soon as you put some load on it (start the car a few times) it would be flat. Luckily it had two year warranty.

Auturbo6 · 10-06-2010, 08:34 PM

Hey Hardware, never thought of posting an obvious thread to see what conspires below. LOL. Awsome..... Later.......

Mr Hardware · 11-06-2010, 12:06 PM

Well i took the battery back to Comet. The bloke there tested it and it was registering only 303CCA - not enough to turn over a gas falcon. He said this was due to heat. Apparently i'm supposed to have a battery shroud? And thats why it only lasted 2 yrs not 4? This is the first i've ever heard of this. Anyway, I'm going to get one of these said shrouds.

He installed a new one for me at a good enough price for me to keep going back.

AMB · 12-06-2010, 01:01 AM

I can't believe people are saying that 2 years out of a battery is okay. That's hopeless for a battery. I don't buy anything special, usually bosch (around $120 these days), and get at least 5 years. The trick is to try and keep them close to fully charged, lead-acid batteries last much longer when kept at full charge. If you don't drive enough to keep it near fully charged, then stick it on an automatic trickle charge every few weeks or as often as you like. I drive 500 km a week and still put it on charge now and then, cos I know the alternator doesn't charge to 100%. An overnight charge is not usually enough to get to full charge, 24 hours on a weekend is good. That's like driving it for 24 hours to charge up the battery. If u don't believe me do this: stick it on a automatic trickle charge and keep measuring the volts every few hours. It should get to 13.8-14.0 volts overnight (maybe quicker if its already well charged), but the last bit getting to 14.2-14.4 volts takes along time, and that's the last 10-20% of the charge, which keeps the battery in good nick. The car alternator does the same thing as the trickle charger, it reduces the charging rate to very low amps for the last 10-20%, so as not to cook the battery, and so it never gets it to full charge.
Mr H, under bonnet temp can get too hot in summer, and cooks the battery. The shroud keeps it cooler. But this time of year heat should not be a problem at all. If you cooked the battery in summer, I would have thought you would have found out before now. (yeh i know u live up there, I'm talking about 40 degree days when under bonnet gets really really hot

)
I've checked the current draw on a few cars over the years, the 0.02A (20 mA) sounds a little high (maybe an alarm system?), the ones I've checked were about 5-10 mA, including my AU and EF, (I think.... I can remember testing them and it seemed ok, will have to recheck now!). I had one that was slowly flattening the battery at 50 mA, turned out to be a relay with crap between the contacts.

**George V** · 13-06-2010, 09:13 AM

Hi,

Few pointers on batteries:

1)
Colder the temperature lowers the CCA / Capacity available to crank the motor. Typically, around 5 deg, available CCA is 20% less than that at 20deg.

So, if a battery on its way out, we will notice the troubles during colder months.

2)
Sealed / maintenance free battery is, as the name implies.
– a throw away / recyclable item. Not necessarily longer life item.

3)
When selecting batteries, go for the largest capacity you can fit in with higher number of plates per cell (11 vs 13). That is: if you are after longer service life and prepare to pay a bit more.

4)
Heat, low electrolyte level, vibration and deep discharge are the common enemies of lead acid batteries. Once a battery has lost its charge beyond a certain level, it is hard to impossible to recharge / restore it.

That is why topping up electrolyte with distilled water and occasional charge (twice a year with 2A domestic / DIY charger overnight) will help in prolonging their useful life.

5)
Trickle or float charge is advisable for batteries not in frequent use but the electrolyte level should be checked bore frequently.

6)
Last not least, keep the terminals clear of oxides / salts and coated with Vaseline etc. This specially helps the alternator to recharge the battery. In most cases, starting current is large enough to burn the muck on contacts but charging current is not.

At work, we use hundreds of DC systems supported by battery banks with a maintenance regime similar to what is outlined above (not telecom related).

Hope this is of some help.

Cheers,

George V

saber · 13-06-2010, 09:42 AM

Thanks for all the advicec George V.

I've read from mamy sources that heat is the number 1 killer of an automotive battery.
In the BA/BF Falcons (not sure of the AU's, I'll have to check) they have a battery shroud, with an air supply to it! I think the idea is to keep the battery cool.

It must work, as many people (myself included) run the standard Ford Motorcraft battey for 4+ years. I myself is coming up to 4 years with the Motorcraft, and haven't had a problem yet. I might have to check the electrolyte level soon though...

Oh, and where do you buy these Bosch batteries? I might just have to grab one when my current battery dies...

AMB · 13-06-2010, 06:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saber

..................Oh, and where do you buy these Bosch batteries? I might just have to grab one when my current battery dies...

I think the last time I bought one was at an Autopro store, or was it at a tyre and brake place in Colac. Can't remember, but haven't had any problem finding them.

**George V** · 13-06-2010, 05:55 PM

Thanks Saber,

Mine is an AU II, it has that shroud. Its the same from EA range onwards.

Bosh battries used to be avialble at supercheap etc but they all market their own lables.

Repco has some"extra heavy duty": which looks similar to Bosch gold.

Mine is still the first replacement, still going strong. I replaced original motocraft battry after three years to be on the safe side. Replacement is more than six years old.

Cheers,
George

03 GHIA · 10-08-2010, 01:23 AM

I've had a very good run with the supercharge classic battery in my EA, just over six years old, running a big stereo and
has been used to jump start cars and mowers countless times. Still going strong.

As long as you top up your battery with distilled water when needed and don't listen to music without the ignition
on for too long a battery should well outlast its warranty.

t08 · 10-08-2010, 02:39 PM

i have an exide battery in the XR8 . Been in for 5yrs now.

brismike · 09-12-2010, 04:08 PM

My Daughter has got an AU1 Forte that has had the battery playing up for a little while now. The car used to be my wife's and when we had it it was well maintained. We had the battery last replaced in June 2005 (Still got the sticker on it) by RACQ. So it has lasted quite well really considering she, the daughter, has never topped up the cells with distilled warter since she got it from us.

My son thinks he is a bit of a mechanic . . (He drives a 2001 Tickford XR8 ute) and reckons that the car should run with the battery disconnected once it is running. He was trying to find out if the alternator was shagged also.

Anyway as soon as the battery was disconnected with the engine running the engine died. So he reckons it needs a new alternator too. We are picking up a second hand Alternator from the wreckers for $70 and will fit that. Then we will put in a new battery too. Hopefully it will be ok then.

Is his theory a sound one? i.e running without a battery connected to find out if the alternator is shagged?

AMB · 09-12-2010, 04:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brismike

......Anyway as soon as the battery was disconnected with the engine running the engine died....

Died is probably a good choice of words. You might have just killed it. You should never disconnect the battery when engine is running -you can blow all sorts of electronics.

Mr Hardware · 09-12-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brismike

Is his theory a sound one? i.e running without a battery connected to find out if the alternator is shagged?

It's somewhere between preposterous and terrible.

I've had an alt die in the middle of driving my AU. Dash lights got dimmer and dimmer, lost lots of power, only just limped it 1k back to work (was a mechanic at the time).

To test if your alt is working is really simple. Put a multimeter on your battery if your car is running! If it says ~12v, then it's not. If it says ~13.9v, then it is!

Disconnecting a battery whilst a car is running in a modern EFI ECU car is exceptionally foolish.

4ford · 09-12-2010, 09:37 PM

I agree!

Basically, the car electronics all runs from the battery, full stop!

All the alternator does is recharge/topup the battery.

A couple of years ago, I worked in Kuwait for about 3 years, and just after I got there I bought a brand new Mustang GT...the point to all this was that I had to maintain the battery almost every other day!
In summer, the daytime ambient air temperature got up to around 52degC, and this was a British Racing Green (i.e. darkish colour), that got VERY hot inside if I was forced to park outside, even for a short time.

The battery had to be changed every year of the 3 years I owned the car, since even after a couple of days (initially) the car wouldn't start due to low battery voltage due to all but NO water at all!
And they did have a battery shroud supplied with ram air.

It turns out the bottle of water I was carrying around in the back was not for me but for the car!

It was much better at night though, it got down to around 35degC!

Absolutely great car, but it was operating in extreme conditions.

I really didn't want to sell it when I left!

brismike · 10-12-2010, 12:49 AM

Ok thanks for the responses Guys . . I'll go kick his **** for thinking he is a mechanic/auto-electrician.

We have fitted the replacement Alternator and before I read all your replies he did the disconnect trick and this time the engine kept running ok. So maybe the original Alternator was on its last legs.

The battery will need replacing soon for sure but I had it on a trickle charge for 24 hours and it did fire up the car ok. See how it goes.

Regards and thanks again for the help.

Mike