Performance....where do we go from here?

[RAPID_BA]

Go back 15 years and I was gobsmacked by the HSV 5.7 litre stroker with its 215kw and 475nm.. Crazy power..

Then in 2000, I was knocked out cold by the CB4 callaway LS1 with 300kw and 500nm in the HSV GTS. IT had more than enough and I thought can it get any better than this?

Today we have the ridiculous power of the F6 and GT 335. Tune only cars running low 12 or even 11s. Nearing 400rwkw.

These cars are just dangerous. Surely we cannot have more power in years to come. There will get to a point where its just too fangerous to have everyone with such powerful cars. Even 6 cylinder family cars have around 200kw.

Have we hit the ceiling with Power and straight line acceleration? Surely we cant keep going, it will be just too dangerous..

Should we all go out and buy a FPV GT or F6 before the authorities pull the pin on such dangerous cars starting to legislate against certain power to weight etc etc..

It has to come to an end somewhere?

[Carby]

I'm actually surprised that the authorities haven't slapped an additional charge on hi performance vehicles already. Our Rego is still governed by weight ie heavier the vehicle the more rego you pay, which personally I don't have a problem with.

But I notice all new cars not only have the L/100 fuel consumtion figures but also the amount of grams of carbon per a kilometere. They are not putting that on those advice stickers for nothing, so I'm thinking that there will be a type of additional carbon tax on vehicle outputs. As you are probably all aware, large V8's and large turbo 6's aren't real flash in this area and that is what might start the performance car downward spiral.

[R1XSTA]

The way the world is, the current fuel prices and living prices. All of which are expected to grow.

Its insane to think that Holden are going to release a 7.0L Supercharged v8.

What is the point?.. Sure we all love the power they produce. But at the end of the day, speed limits are dropping. racing circuits are closing down or barely open. and hoon laws/laws in general are getting more and more strict.

Originally Posted by Carby

I'm actually surprised that the authorities haven't slapped an additional charge on hi performance vehicles already. Our Rego is still governed by weight ie heavier the vehicle the more rego you pay, which personally I don't have a problem with.

It also pends on your area also.

[|Nate]

I think, if we are still able to purchase a 456kw Ferrari 599 or even a 700kw Koenigsegg I saw for sale, then we will always be able to purchase the GT 335 or the F6 310.

[Windsor342ci]

Originally Posted by |Nate

I think, if we are still able to purchase a 456kw Ferrari 599 or even a 700kw Koenigsegg I saw for sale, then we will always be able to purchase the GT 335 or the F6 310.

Very valid point!

[SteveJH]

With cars in the Price bracket of FPV's and HSV's, and with the possible power of the current FPV's if let off the leash a bit...

I've say that at least in the short term, development will be towards increasing handling capability both stopping and going around corners. Also increasing traction.

No point adding more power until you can put what you have to the ground successfully.

[StrikeTwiceXR6]

How will they keep speed in check in the future? I think you may find GPS will be used in the fight against speeding drivers in the not to distant future. Your I-phone can be used to estimate speed and your location. The FG Falcon is fitted with a black box that records/logs the motor vehicles driving history, and if your in a fatal accident, I can guarantee that a court order will be made to extract this data as evidence.
Local speed limits will be loaded to a GPS unit in your car, once you exceed the posted speed limit, the GPS unit will know this, resulting in a fine being posted by mail. How will they know who's driving? No idea. The technology is there to be used, just give it time

[dimka100]

Australian FPV/HSVs are in no way leading the power war that’s been waging between the usual German manufacturers. Actually if you consider the power of the F6 and the GTs you will quickly realise that 300Kw is so yesteryear … The new M5 about to be released will have 440Kw, the Audi RS6 has been running about 420Kw for ages now, the new Turbo Mercs are already available with 420Kw … hell the 2013 GTR is gonna have more than 400kw and so will the Porsche turbos … so all in all 300kw+ is nothing to be worried about.

Also while in Australia we have ridiculously low speed limits and lacking variety in the race track department, other countries are not. When it comes to worldwide manufacturers their designs are not aimed at Australia but the rest of the world, so all in all I do not see them slowing down any one bit for the next coming decade …

Lastly politicians capping the power output has already been tried in Japan (206kw) and look where that got them, an R34 GTR was rated at only 206kw but it would still embarrass any new stock HSV/FPV, eventually their realised it was a dumb idea so they dropped it …

[atec77]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Australian FPV/HSVs are in no way leading the power war that’s been waging between the usual German manufacturers. Actually if you consider the power of the F6 and the GTs you will quickly realise that 300Kw is so yesteryear … The new M5 about to be released will have 440Kw, the Audi RS6 has been running about 420Kw for ages now, the new Turbo Mercs are already available with 420Kw … hell the 2013 GTR is gonna have more than 400kw and so will the Porsche turbos … so all in all 300kw+ is nothing to be worried about.

Also while in Australia we have ridiculously low speed limits and lacking variety in the race track department, other countries are not. When it comes to worldwide manufacturers their designs are not aimed at Australia but the rest of the world, so all in all I do not see them slowing down any one bit for the next coming decade …

Lastly politicians capping the power output has already been tried in Japan (206kw) and look where that got them, an R34 GTR was rated at only 206kw but it would still embarrass any new stock HSV/FPV, eventually their realised it was a dumb idea so they dropped it …

Personally I would like to see fuel figures legislated , we pay 2/3 tax for the stuff so cas should be efficient , in saying that the new falcadores are very fat and making more power is not the answer . We are isolated on a sparsley populated place with very vaerage roads which is reflected in the 85th percentile , making the roads and speeds better is considerable work which with the way our govco is spending money wont happen for ages but certainly we do need a major road improvement between cities , better rail to but again money comes into it . We all know cctv cams don't save lives and the logistics prove that , I believe better roads and improved driving skills and testing will save far more lives , perhaps if everyone who got a ticked contested it the courts would colapse , I mentioned this to the bil who is a magistrate and got red faced and dupset , I suspect the thought scares his ilk a little , I should think lighter cars a little smaller with current power levels is all we need really

[RAPID_BA]

We can't really talk about exotic cars here, they are a statement of what can be produced and buyers pay for it. We don't see too many ferraris or even m5s on every street here.

But let's face it, our fpv models are made to a price, made to be within reach of many and sell on a mass production basis. They also produce well over 300kw and the GT is realistically nudgeing 400kw. It just can't keep on like this.

If we fast forward 100 years will man be running the 100 metre sprint in 7 seconds? Will 9.5s be slow in 100 years?

Its the same with our outputs, surely there has to be a limit on what is safe, we can't just keep getting faster

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

We can't really talk about exotic cars here, they are a statement of what can be produced and buyers pay for it. We don't see too many ferraris or even m5s on every street here.

Don't see many 335 GTs either no matter how much cheaper they are compared to an exotic.
It's not all about power either....

[flappist]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

We can't really talk about exotic cars here, they are a statement of what can be produced and buyers pay for it. We don't see too many ferraris or even m5s on every street here.

But let's face it, our fpv models are made to a price, made to be within reach of many and sell on a mass production basis. They also produce well over 300kw and the GT is realistically nudgeing 400kw. It just can't keep on like this.

If we fast forward 100 years will man be running the 100 metre sprint in 7 seconds? Will 9.5s be slow in 100 years?

Its the same with our outputs, surely there has to be a limit on what is safe, we can't just keep getting faster

I would not call BMW M series exotic, there are far more of them in the world than FPVs and they cost less too if you compare the prices in the country of manufacture. (or even exported to USA).

[dimka100]

Actually they don't cost much more than FPV/HSV does when you look at their prices in their corresponding countries or even the USA.

Also they are all turbocharged V6s or V8s and have more torque at super low revs … but unlike the local engines you are right they can rev and rev

Originally Posted by SteveJH

Those cars all cost several times the cost of an FPV/HSV, and in many of the cases don't produce peak power until very high revs's 7,500-8000+.

[dimka100]

A brand new BMW M3 costs 60K in the USA drive away ... nobody even considers that car there as exotic, hell most cars in Australia under 300K actually cost less than 100K in the USA …

Originally Posted by flappist

I would not call BMW M series exotic, there are far more of them in the world than FPVs and they cost less too if you compare the prices in the country of manufacture. (or even exported to USA).

[RAPID_BA]

We can't really talk about exotic cars here, they are a statement of what can be produced and buyers pay for it. We don't see too many ferraris or even m5s on every street here.

But let's face it, our fpv models are made to a price, made to be within reach of many and sell on a mass production basis. They also produce well over 300kw and the GT is realistically nudgeing 400kw. It just can't keep on like this.

If we fast forward 100 years will man be running the 100 metre sprint in 7 seconds? Will 9.5s be slow in 100 years?

Its the same with our outputs, surely there has to be a limit on what is safe, we can't just keep getting faster

[SteveJH]

Originally Posted by dimka100

Australian FPV/HSVs are in no way leading the power war that’s been waging between the usual German manufacturers. Actually if you consider the power of the F6 and the GTs you will quickly realise that 300Kw is so yesteryear … The new M5 about to be released will have 440Kw, the Audi RS6 has been running about 420Kw for ages now, the new Turbo Mercs are already available with 420Kw … hell the 2013 GTR is gonna have more than 400kw and so will the Porsche turbos … so all in all 300kw+ is nothing to be worried about.

Also while in Australia we have ridiculously low speed limits and lacking variety in the race track department, other countries are not. When it comes to worldwide manufacturers their designs are not aimed at Australia but the rest of the world, so all in all I do not see them slowing down any one bit for the next coming decade …

Lastly politicians capping the power output has already been tried in Japan (206kw) and look where that got them, an R34 GTR was rated at only 206kw but it would still embarrass any new stock HSV/FPV, eventually their realised it was a dumb idea so they dropped it …

Those cars all cost several times the cost of an FPV/HSV, and in many of the cases don't produce peak power until very high revs's 7,500-8000+.

[mik]

it`s a non issue imo, with all the safety aids these modern factory cars have, you would have to be doing something very very dumb to get into trouble, having owned the first model v8 falcon from experience i know the the oldies still had a turn of speed, and even though they did`nt make big horse power they where light by todays standards and the brakes where plain scarey, it makes me laugh when people wine about the brakes on some of our modern models with ABS that also handle quite well by comparison,
our modern cars are not the uncontrolable roller skates of yester year, lets face it my grandma or your pregnant wife could drive a modded tuned GT 335, an F6, a HSV for 30 years and never know what the performance value of the car is .............. drive some of the older cars with no technology you will very soon see the difference.
a more relevant point would be.......... when will high performance cars begin to be just no longer affordable and no longer viable for car makers to produce them.

[Polyal]

Just wait until the electric cars become common...some nice torque off the mark.

Technology is a ******, just try and keep up. In saying that weight is always increasing, and using exotic materials is not feasible in mass production, so you need to power to counter the weight.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Just wait until the electric cars become common...some nice torque off the mark.

Technology is a ******, just try and keep up. In saying that weight is always increasing, and using exotic materials is not feasible in mass production, so you need to power to counter the weight.

agreed, and a lot of the weight comes from safety aids which are increasing all the time, safety high strength passenger compartment, multiple air bags, bigger brakes, ABS system, thicker glass, pretensioner seat belts, bigger wheels and tyres to carry it all and more i can`t think of.

[dimka100]

wrong post.

[Carby]

Getting off track a bit here - it's about sustaining/not sustaining the ever increasing horsepower gains each year, not about how much cars cost..................

[Danny]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

Go back 15 years and I was gobsmacked by the HSV 5.7 litre stroker with its 215kw and 475nm.. Crazy power..

Then in 2000, I was knocked out cold by the CB4 callaway LS1 with 300kw and 500nm in the HSV GTS. IT had more than enough and I thought can it get any better than this?

Today we have the ridiculous power of the F6 and GT 335. Tune only cars running low 12 or even 11s. Nearing 400rwkw.

These cars are just dangerous. Surely we cannot have more power in years to come. There will get to a point where its just too fangerous to have everyone with such powerful cars. Even 6 cylinder family cars have around 200kw.

Have we hit the ceiling with Power and straight line acceleration? Surely we cant keep going, it will be just too dangerous..

Should we all go out and buy a FPV GT or F6 before the authorities pull the pin on such dangerous cars starting to legislate against certain power to weight etc etc..

It has to come to an end somewhere?

Don't forget that cars are now heavier than their equal counterparts way back when they had 220kW or 185kW, yes their performance has increased, but their safety and also tyre technology has improved so much, ESP systems, and the era of manufacturers tuning their cars for safer handling all means that your cries of power in excess of 300kW being dangerous is all a bit premature.

Another thing you may need to factor in is your Frame of reference, I assume you were born in the Eighties, the era of shoddy XF Falcons pushing 80 or so kW, the era of everything becoming EFi and Unleaded, Ford losing their V8, and holden running Nissan sixes, everthing was low on poke because of this transition period, until both reintroduced the eights in the late 80's early 90's, so to you it would seem like it started there, and it has been a war ever since, and power increases will never stop.

Guys who were born in the 50's or 60's would likely not be so surprised at todays power figures, they went there and did that in the 70's with the supercar and muscle car era. Difference? With crap handling and low chassis and tyre technology, including rubbish braking systems, these cars were dangerous, but I take it that was all the more fun. people who lived in this era, probably wouldnt understand your point.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by Danny

Don't forget that cars are now heavier than their equal counterparts way back when they had 220kW or 185kW, yes their performance has increased, but their safety and also tyre technology has improved so much, ESP systems, and the era of manufacturers tuning their cars for safer handling all means that your cries of power in excess of 300kW being dangerous is all a bit premature.

Another thing you may need to factor in is your Frame of reference, I assume you were born in the Eighties, the era of shoddy XF Falcons pushing 80 or so kW, the era of everything becoming EFi and Unleaded, Ford losing their V8, and holden running Nissan sixes, everthing was low on poke because of this transition period, until both reintroduced the eights in the late 80's early 90's, so to you it would seem like it started there, and it has been a war ever since, and power increases will never stop.

Guys who were born in the 50's or 60's would likely not be so surprised at todays power figures, they went there and did that in the 70's with the supercar and muscle car era. Difference? With crap handling and low chassis and tyre technology, including rubbish braking systems, these cars were dangerous, but I take it that was all the more fun. people who lived in this era, probably wouldnt understand your point.

I don't think you have anything to worry about.

I dont think the guys born in the 50s or 60s have seen what we see. Cars that had 150kw were considered a muscle car scare and did 16's down the quarter mile? We are all seeing such a dangerous period together for the first time...now

I dont think we can put the current super output levels with that generation.

We can only go so far with safety. The current cars worst safety attribute is pure speed and acceleration.... when there is a collission. speed is getting higher and higher (acceleration better and better in any given road).

The old days lucky if you would hit 70km an hour on full noise up the street.

[jjw]

In terms of trends, efficiency will become more and more important as fuel costs increase and an emissions cost of some sort is imputed. Lighter weight and smaller capacity turbocharged engines to provide the same/better performance with less fuel/emissions (as per BMW M cars).

In terms of performance, while there is no great technical limitation or plateau where we are at present (1800kg and 500hp is easy with the right chassis (and electronic) development), for the market, they are probably fast enough already - but they will still get better, if not a whole lot faster. Think better dynamics and refinement (more euro and less muscle car).

[2011G6E]

I'm actually surprised that there haven't been calls for governors to be fitted to cars...they used to say that many years back, but now with EFI it would be easy as pie to put some software into the computer.
They have of course called for speed limiters.

There was a discussion on this very subject in 2Wheels motorcycle magazine a while ago in an article. He said he was going to ruffle feathers, but he called on some common sense in big bike engines...some of them don't even start to make power properly or come on the cam until you are waaaaay over the speed limit...in fact, some of them couldn't even start to work properly on a lot of racetracks, as by the time you had the speed up, you were braking for the next corner. Do you really need to be able to accelerate from a standing start to over 100kph in first gear...?
Outright speed and straight-line acceleration are a **** in the real world anyhow...give me a car with an adequate amount of power, and a sweet chassis and handling, and I'm a happy man. That's why i had so much fun flogging my old '82 Celica repeatedly up and down the range from Nambour to Montville over the last few days while I was staying at a friends place down there...it only makess about 79 horspower, but had an amazing chassi balance and great handling setup, so it was a blast up and down those corners that just flowed seamlessly one into the other. More power would have been useless in those conditions, and once on the highway, what use it umpteen million horsepower when you're just cruising along?

There will be a peak with cars...big bikes have already reached it (my 2008 Suzuki GSX-1400 puts out just over 100hp, virtually the same as one of my former bikes, a 1981 Kawasaki Z1000J, but it "feels" heaps quicker because of a far superior chassis and sweeter handling)...and cars are sure to follow.

[dimka100]

I’m not sure that I will agree with you on that, new 1ltr sports bikes make about 180HP (R1, GSXR1000, CBR1000R) and every new model released they try to squiz out a few extra HP here and there …

The real change however is now coming by integrating a bunch of new car like technologies into bikes such as electronic throttle control, ABS, stability control and so forth …

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

There will be a peak with cars...big bikes have already reached it (my 2008 Suzuki GSX-1400 puts out just over 100hp, virtually the same as one of my former bikes, a 1981 Kawasaki Z1000J, but it "feels" heaps quicker because of a far superior chassis and sweeter handling)...and cars are sure to follow.

[EFFalcon]

power != speed

you just get there faster.

[EFFalcon]

my 83 thunderbird with its 5.0 and immence 97kw can still cruise at 110km/h without a fuss, and if i stack it, i'll be worse off then the 400rwkw modified FG GT thats doing 110km/h next to me.

[RAPID_BA]

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

my 83 thunderbird with its 5.0 and immence 97kw can still cruise at 110km/h without a fuss, and if i stack it, i'll be worse off then the 400rwkw modified FG GT thats doing 110km/h next to me.

But at full noise the 400rwkw modified FG GT will hit a wall at an extra 100km/h compared to your 83 thunderbird. Its not the car, its the gooses we allow behind the steering wheel that will make them dangerous missiles.

Why else did they put a stop to it in the 70s? Japan introduce a ceiling of 206kw?

[irish2]

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

But at full noise the 400rwkw modified FG GT will hit a wall at an extra 100km/h compared to your 83 thunderbird. Its not the car, its the gooses we allow behind the steering wheel that will make them dangerous missiles.

Why else did they put a stop to it in the 70s? Japan introduce a ceiling of 206kw?

A KE70 corrolla will reach speeds that will kill/maim all occupants within a matter of seconds. Restricting power will not reduce the number of idiots on the road. If you are willing to wind a car up to high speed and/or perform dangerous manouvers, then this is called evolution. The person/s you take with you, are called unlucky.