Direct Injection engines And valve deposits?

[OzJavelin]

I was just reading about modern DI engines having issues with excessive deposits forming on the valves in relatively low mileage engines .. Recommendations from companies like VW to regularly run engines at 4000rpm for extended periods to burn off the deposits .. Hyundai recommending regular engine cleaning treatments? First I've heard of this. Sounds a bit counter-productive for modern cars which are basically a black-box, don't touch, consumer appliance?

I'm assuming this is probably a bit more of a problem relating to people driving cars for short distances at low speeds; I.e. the daily commute. But seems that the people who buy cars like DIs or diesels are the most likely to drive like this .. And these engines seem the least suitable to their driving needs?

[Angeldust]

Yes i have read a bit on this lately. Actually just yesterday i mentioned this in another thread on here.

Some discussion on here about it : see post #7 and follow the links in the thread to other thread on other forums.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...n-buildup.html

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Angeldust

Yes i have read a bit on this lately. Actually just yesterday i mentioned this in another thread on here.

Some discussion on here about it : see post #7 and follow the links in the thread to other thread on other forums.

http://ls1tech.com/forums/generation...n-buildup.html

I like the post about BMW dealers pulling the intake manifold and blasting the valves with walnuts (walnut material?) to remove the deposits on the valves.

I suppose the SIDI guys would be the first to know about this if it was a real problem?

[ryeman]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

.........I suppose the SIDI guys would be the first to know about this if it was a real problem?

Exactly, the problem of PCV emissions coming into contact with the back of the inlet valve face and no longer being cleaned off by injectors ( now direct into combustion chamber) must surely be a common problem.
So how do GM get around it?

[Angeldust]

seems like the problem has been around for a while,

http://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w2...n-buildup.html

[Angeldust]

lots of reports of alloytechs sludging up... just not sure whether thats on the valves etc or just the bottom end. anyone know>?

[Wretched]

Wonder how the ecoboost engines are going?

[2011G6E]

Modern vehicles sometimes have things that make you wonder "why bother" when you see the trouble they can cause.

We're looking at a 2010 Mitsubishi Pajero diesel at the moment. That model (and the one before it) have a DPF, a Diesel Particulate Filter, in the exhaust. There were massive problems with the NS model Pajero, with the filter clogging and making the vehicle go to limp-home mode or meaning you couldn't start it.
The factory recommendation to "prevent" the issue was that if you just trundled around town all the time (which, let's face it, is where a lot of fourbies spend all their time) then at least every week go for a run of at least twenty minutes at higher than 80kph to burn out the deposits in the filter.

The NS model had a different design which isn't affected by this problem (which is why it's the model we're looking at), but apparently the newer models don't have the DPF fitted...so why the hell did they bother in the first place?


Still, I'm old enough to remember our neighbour whinging bitterly about how "gutless" his brand new Holden Vacationer wagon was now that "they've fitted all that goddamn antipollution crap!" to the engine. I also have old Motor and Wheels magazines from the time of ADR27A in 1976 that tell of issues with engine deposits, bad fuel economy, lower power, and other problems. In fact, from that date on, few car advertisements actually quoted the power outputs at all.

Sometimes with this new tech going into engines, you would have to think there's a stage of diminishing returns...the tech you're expensively piling into your engine might make it use a percent or two less fuel or make it produce a couple of percent more power, but will it also make owners (and future second hand owners) face huge bills and mechanical issues once it gets a few years on it...?

With engines like the Chysler Hemi and the Holden V8 with cylinder shut down systems, the first thing I thought of was "Wow, what a great idea!"...and the second thing I thought of was "I wonder what these things are going to be like in ten years time after second or third owners who might not be so careful about oil changes and using the proper oil...if they bother to change it at all.

[ryeman]

Bill Tuckey.....'removing lead will be the end of the combustion engine' ...tetraethyl-lead manufacturers in the US (du pont?) made a fortune and brain damage is now obvious.

To sell in Japan Europe (California?) PDF was mandatory....no choice

[2011G6E]

Sorry, but the facts on lead were that lead in childrens blood started dropping after they banned lead based solder in food tins...not when they brought in unleaded fuel.

The other issue was that lead levels used to be measured right on the road surface or within inches of the bitumen...but if you moved the measuring device back a meter or two from the road, the levels dropped off dramatically. This is because lead, even in the particulate form from exhausts, is heavy, and drops to the road surface and gets washed away.

Anyway, lead is gone, and we have to now put up with the toxic cocktail of chemicals in unleaded.
Anyone ever seen the warning signs that were put on European unleaded pumps that severely warned you not to breath the fumes, not to allow it to come into contact with your skin, not to use it to wash parts, not to use it in anything without a cat converter (like power equipment such as mowers and whipper snippers and generators), etc.
Also, motorcycle magazines tell people in heavy traffic to try and not sit happily behind cars breathing the fumes, as the exhaust emissions that are coming out, until the cat converter is up to temperature, are actually far worse than old leaded fuel cars...

[ryeman]

Then SAAB 900s said they could drive through a city and leave it cleaner, the GM took them over....

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Sorry, but the facts on lead were that lead in childrens blood started dropping after they banned lead based solder in food tins...not when they brought in unleaded fuel.

Not True I know of three Peer reviewed widely accepted papers linking the removal of lead from petrol and paint to an universally witnessed trend in the reduction of Crime across the world. A 20 year lag between banning Lead and a significant drop in violent crime.
Lead poisoning in our early developmental years, impairs the development of the anterior cingulate cortex and prefrontal cortex which regulate behavior and mood.
A study in Cincinnati also finds that young people prosecuted for delinquency are four times more likely than the general population to have high levels of lead in their bones

References:
1. Rick Nevin, May 2000. How Lead Exposure Relates to Temporal Changes in IQ, Violent Crime, and Unwed Pregnancy. Environmental Research, Vol.83, Issue 1,

2. Rick Nevin, 2007. Understanding international crime trends: the legacy of preschool lead exposure. Environmental Research Vol. 104,
3. Jessica Wolpaw Reyes, May 2007. Environmental Policy as Social Policy? The Impact of Childhood Lead Exposure on Crime. National Bureau of Economic Research Working Paper 13097.


JP

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Modern vehicles sometimes have things that make you wonder "why bother" when you see the trouble they can cause.

We're looking at a 2010 Mitsubishi Pajero diesel at the moment. That model (and the one before it) have a DPF, a Diesel Particulate Filter, in the exhaust. There were massive problems with the NS model Pajero, with the filter clogging and making the vehicle go to limp-home mode or meaning you couldn't start it.
The factory recommendation to "prevent" the issue was that if you just trundled around town all the time (which, let's face it, is where a lot of fourbies spend all their time) then at least every week go for a run of at least twenty minutes at higher than 80kph to burn out the deposits in the filter.

The NS model had a different design which isn't affected by this problem (which is why it's the model we're looking at), but apparently the newer models don't have the DPF fitted...so why the hell did they bother in the first place?
.

The only Pajero that has DPF is NS with auto transmission. Manuals dont have it. The NP before it never had it and the NT afterwards got rid of it because it wasn't needed.

A lot of the DPF problems that occured when NS first came out were more software related. The light kept coming on for no reason and putting the car into limp home mode. Haven't seen any DPF issues in a while.

[XBROO]

I know with my Navara, it has a pipe running from the exhaust maifold to the intake. It for some sort of pollution thing. Alot of owners block it off, because it's dumps soot, straight into the intake. They reckon they gain up to 15% better fuel economy and power, but it's illegal to do. They sell the blank offs on the e-bay, I'm thinking of doing it but worried about it being illegal.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XBROO

I know with my Navara, it has a pipe running from the exhaust maifold to the intake. It for some sort of pollution thing. Alot of owners block it off, because it's dumps soot, straight into the intake. They reckon they gain up to 15% better fuel economy and power, but it's illegal to do. They sell the blank offs on the e-bay, I'm thinking of doing it but worried about it being illegal.

EGR - Exhaust Gas Recirculation, its a common thing these days, even petrol engines have this, its to remove NOX emissions which particularly diesels score high up on the list for. Take off an inlet manifold on a diesel car and have a look at the massive build up, sometimes it even craps up sensors.

You can block it off, its called an EGR blanking plate, but don't be surprised if it brings up an engine light and the car goes into limp-home mode.

Then you have DPF which some or well probably most diesel cars are also equipped with, the only reason these things fail is because some people tootle around in the city or do tons of short trips in their diesel cars, and the DPF has to regenerate constantly or clog up and cause problems.

Now we're seeing SCR, selective catalyst reduction on diesel engines, its an additive into the exhaust, some call it urea injection, Mercedes calls it "blue efficiency", it needs fluid added each service, its all to meet emissions.

Its like Mazda RX8 with their rotary engines and seeing them rock up on tow trucks to Mazda dealerships day in day out. People buy them, start it up, drive off, do short trips to and from the shops, and then it comes in on a tow truck with fouled plugs and a carbon build up issue.

DPF and SCR to me are in early days, the problem is emissions regulations are getting harder and harder too quickly and the people with the brains have to quickly bodge up some solution and you end up with crap which causes problems, give it a few generations before we go pointing fingers and considering them as crap ideas.

Buy something suitable for your use.

[2011G6E]

I remember photos from the first years following the introduction of ADR27A of, in particular, a 302 Falcon EGR system at the manifold that had eroded quite badly from some fault in the alloy and was allowing exhaust fumes to get into the cabin of the car.
This is why it was common practice...even in most reputable mechanics shops...to either remove and bin the entire system or put appropriately sized ball bearings into the vacuum pipes to disable it all, then give the car a retune. The power and economy would improve markedly on most cars.

[XBROO]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

EGR - Exhaust Gas Recirculation, its a common thing these days, even petrol engines have this, its to remove NOX emissions which particularly diesels score high up on the list for. Take off an inlet manifold on a diesel car and have a look at the massive build up, sometimes it even craps up sensors.

You can block it off, its called an EGR blanking plate, but don't be surprised if it brings up an engine light and the car goes into limp-home mode.

Then you have DPF which some or well probably most diesel cars are also equipped with, the only reason these things fail is because some people tootle around in the city or do tons of short trips in their diesel cars, and the DPF has to regenerate constantly or clog up and cause problems.

Now we're seeing SCR, selective catalyst reduction on diesel engines, its an additive into the exhaust, some call it urea injection, Mercedes calls it "blue efficiency", it needs fluid added each service, its all to meet emissions.

Its like Mazda RX8 with their rotary engines and seeing them rock up on tow trucks to Mazda dealerships day in day out. People buy them, start it up, drive off, do short trips to and from the shops, and then it comes in on a tow truck with fouled plugs and a carbon build up issue.

DPF and SCR to me are in early days, the problem is emissions regulations are getting harder and harder too quickly and the people with the brains have to quickly bodge up some solution and you end up with crap which causes problems, give it a few generations before we go pointing fingers and considering them as crap ideas.

Buy something suitable for your use.

Yep EGR and NOX what ever that means? But alot of owners on the Navara forums have done this mod, and have had no trouble with engine light or limp modes. Looks pretty easy to do aswell.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by XBROO

Yep EGR and NOX what ever that means? But alot of owners on the Navara forums have done this mod, and have had no trouble with engine light or limp modes. Looks pretty easy to do aswell.

NOX is oxides of nitrogen.

EGR is explained up there

[ratter]

egr on late model cars can help get better fuel economy

[Windsor220]

Tritons block up the intakes pretty bad too.

[XBROO]

**** what year and how many kays, I think it's time to get the blank off.

[mik]

i have a non egr engine in one of my cars and also the identical spare engine from an import with egr , my non egr engine is lovely and clean under the covers, the egr engine is bloody disgusting.

[DMXR6T]

Sounds like blocking off the EGR and maybe a catch can for the crank case ventilation is in order. Problem being that there may be consequences for the engine management system plus the legal issue. Best to avoid direct injection for petrol engines, but of course not possible for diesels.