An unfinished Falcon BA AWD Turbo project on Ebay

[happy1]

I did a random search on Ebay today and ended up looking at someone's Falcon racecar project listed for sale, a BA shell fitted with Territory Turbo running gear, and floor pan.

Probably can't be road registered with roll cage in it, and some of the floor pan work looks a bit rough too.

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Unfinishe...item2c9f3d01df

Would have been cool to do this with an FG, without the roll cage
None of the photos shows the height and the wheel clearances, so its a bit unclear exactly how it would fit under the front guards.

Interesting to have seen how the SZ subframe would have fitted onto a Falcon, and how low the ride height could have been set with the front differential as part of the sump, instead of these SX/SY parts

Cheers

[Gothefalcon]

The front ends of the FG are basically the same as the BA/F (etc) so there wouldn't be much issue fitting the Terry's AWD set-up in an FG.
As the FG has a slightly wider track to BA/F... it would be easier to get fit the Terry's extra wide track under the guards too.

Fitting the SZ's sub-frame etc into a Falcon would be the same as fitting the SX/Y's... but the problem with both is that they hang beneath the existing chassis rails (at the rails lowest point).... so lowering the Falcon to "normal" street level would be difficult.... especially with the Terry's longer spindle uprights etc.
You wouldn't have a lot of ground clearance left.

There are a few other hurdles to get over too... but nothing that can't be done without a bit of perseverance

Dhru

[78xcgxl]

FG front end is different from AU-BF. Steering rack is forward of the cross member, lower control arm setup is completely different as well as the stub axle,upper control arm, sway bar location etc.

[Gothefalcon]

Originally Posted by 78xcgxl

FG front end is different from AU-BF. Steering rack is forward of the cross member, lower control arm setup is completely different as well as the stub axle,upper control arm, sway bar location etc.

All true... but if you were converting to a Terry AWD set-up... all these bits get thrown out... and replaced with Terry bits. What I was referring to was the main platform that they bolt too. (ie: the design of the front structure etc)

D

[malazn mafia]

Perhaps the guy got cold feet when he realised his turbo awd falcon would end up looking like an RTV. My dream project would be to gut an R35 GTR and install all the innards into a stock looking BA. Would still be able to maintain the correct sedan ride height, as well as having phenomenal performance and handing.

[ebv8]

i like it, i just bought an adventra and found out that all VZ commodore share the AWD floorpan so any VZ can be converted to AWD fairly easy and they don't have to be stupid high either they can be lowered 100mm pretty easy and safely
but then again a VZ sedan AWD is nowhere near as cool as an AWD Falcon race car as long as it can do skids though.

[malazn mafia]

Originally Posted by ebv8

i like it, i just bought an adventra and found out that all VZ commodore share the AWD floorpan so any VZ can be converted to AWD fairly easy and they don't have to be stupid high either they can be lowered 100mm pretty easy and safely
but then again a VZ sedan AWD is nowhere near as cool as an AWD Falcon race car as long as it can do skids though.

Is this true that any VZ can be turned awd? . A 6.2L swapped VZ Executive AWD sleeper on steel wheels would be half palatable.

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by ebv8

i like it, i just bought an adventra and found out that all VZ commodore share the AWD floorpan so any VZ can be converted to AWD fairly easy and they don't have to be stupid high either they can be lowered 100mm pretty easy and safely
but then again a VZ sedan AWD is nowhere near as cool as an AWD Falcon race car as long as it can do skids though.

It's not as easy you might think.

The problem area is where the front drives shafts go under the front frame rails.

Have a look how much modification HSV had carry out, to the build the Coupe4.

Dr Terry

[Iggle Piggle]

Pretty sure all the AWD Commodores are long wheel base as pre-VE the utes and wagons were all built off the LWB platform. From VE onwards the ute is still off LWB I think but VE onwards Sportwagon is SWB.

Sometimes I toy with the idea of an AWD WL Caprice.

[davenl5l]

hsv awd Monaro had to have flared guards to fit wheels

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by davenl5l

hsv awd Monaro had to have flared guards to fit wheels

All the AWD versions get the extended wheel arches, because of the wider track.

Dr Terry

[Gothefalcon]

A few points to address here...
As far as "Can you AWD A VZ or BA/F" etc.... which wheelbase has nothing to do with it. As with any drivetrain combo... the length of the tailshaft just needs to match what you're putting it into. Commodore Wagon was LWB... but the twin-cab Utes had an even longer wheelbase... and were also available in AWD.

As far as VE/F go... the "standard" wheelbase was extended on all versions... and it pretty much equals the length of the previous LWB (with the VE/F Statey being even longer) So for the sake of discussion... VE SWB = VZ LWB.

Holden AWDs have a transfer case from the same supplier as Ford used in the Terry. The Terry's is chain driven, and requires a hump in the floor to allow for the diagonal travel of the chain. Holden fitted a gear driven transfer case, which allows it to drive down and across.... so no hump in the floor is required. The chain driven transfer case is better.... but the geared down unit is easier to retro fit.

Dr Terry is correct... HSV spent a lot of time, energy and cash to fit the AWD setup in the Monaro. There are several different parts in the front end which are bespoke to the Coupe'4. You can't "easily take 100mm out of the ride height" of an Adventra/Cross 8 etc... without having the same problems as you would by doing the same thing to a Terry. The steering and suspension geometry would be WAY out (ie: not safe)... and the front sub-frames would be far too close to the ground.

You could more easily have a low AWD Commodore/Statey/etc. than a low AWD Falcon/Fairlane/etc... but you would need to use the Coupe'4's front end to do it.

Both the Holden & Ford AWD set-ups have a much wider track than their RWD counterparts..... so the fitment of wheel arch flares will be required to keep it legal.

The addition of AWD brings with it a pretty hefty weight penalty... so whilst you get all the benefits of fantastic grip... outright performance will be dulled somewhat... and the fuel bill will be higher.

The rolling diameter of all wheels must be the same (front & rear)... which makes it difficult (but not impossible) to fit a wider rear rim/tyre combo (if you want that sort of thing).

If you do convert a Falcon or Commodore to AWD... you will also need the ABS/DSC set-up from the donor car. Both manufacturer's set-ups have essentially 3 open wheel diffs (front, centre, rear) with drive (or slip) being controlled by the Traction Control part of the DSC. without it... it would be fairly useless under extreme conditions.

Hope this helps

Dhru

[Iggle Piggle]

Oh yeah, forgot the HSVs - Coupe 4 would have been short wheel base

[OzJavelin]

Maybe just do half the job .. FWD V8 Commodore anyone?

[ebv8]

there is a build thread on a rwd monaro with adventra running gear, they don't need wheel arch flares the track is the same (at least my 05 lx8 adventra matches my 01 VX wagon)
the rear end has spacers under the subframe to lower it and raise the car but they can be removed and the front diff and driveshafts (& k frame) should fit in any commodore, the diff is bolted to the sump and struts are the same items its just the hubs are different.
its only the trans and transfer case mounts that need to be added to vt-vy commodores and are present on vz commodores even sedans

[Dr Terry]

Originally Posted by ebv8

there is a build thread on a rwd monaro with adventra running gear, they don't need wheel arch flares the track is the same (at least my 05 lx8 adventra matches my 01 VX wagon)
the rear end has spacers under the subframe to lower it and raise the car but they can be removed and the front diff and driveshafts (& k frame) should fit in any commodore, the diff is bolted to the sump and struts are the same items its just the hubs are different.
its only the trans and transfer case mounts that need to be added to vt-vy commodores and are present on vz commodores even sedans

According to the specs, the Adventra track is 50mm wider at the front & 40mm wider at the rear.

I own a VY Adventra & several VT-VZ 2WD wagons & the extra track width is very noticeable, especially when parking against a kerb or straddling speed ups.

BTW one quick look under a Coupe4 front end will show you how much modification was necessary to fit the front drive components. The front suspension itself is also quite different. Where a 2WD Commodore has a lower control arm & a strut rod, similar to X-series Falcons, the 4WD version has a proper 'wishbone' type lower arm.

The whole front subframe is very different in many areas.

Dr Terry

[devilcv8]

Originally Posted by ebv8

there is a build thread on a rwd monaro with adventra running gear, they don't need wheel arch flares the track is the same (at least my 05 lx8 adventra matches my 01 VX wagon)
the rear end has spacers under the subframe to lower it and raise the car but they can be removed and the front diff and driveshafts (& k frame) should fit in any commodore, the diff is bolted to the sump and struts are the same items its just the hubs are different.
its only the trans and transfer case mounts that need to be added to vt-vy commodores and are present on vz commodores even sedans

There's one member over at ls1 forum that has built an awd monaro, awd tonner, awd maloo and the current project is an awd VR commodore/lexcen which won't be registered but will be raced.

[EFFalcon]

That BA would have stuff all clearance underneath at a decent ride height.
cool idea, but would look terrible at a usable height.

[Gothefalcon]

A snippet from an earlier time... in an article about the Coupe'4....

Apart from the big-time power on offer from the fettled 5.7-litre V8 engine, the AWD transmission will ensure the Coupé 4 has more grip than most.

The mammoth task of actually developing Australia's first low ride height AWD coupé has proven to be an engineering triumph for the relatively small, close-knit HSV development team.

"Lowering the ride height (from Avalanche wagon) changed the entire geometry of the front suspension – the roll centre, camber, toe settings, etc", says HSV AWD Engineering Program Manager, Joel Stoddart.

"Correcting that meant designing a totally new lower control arm and steering knuckle assembly.

"At the rear it was a matter of fitting a current Coupé semi trailing arm and switching to 19 X 9-inch rear wheels (front are 19 X 8-inch) with a unique offset to maintain the correct wheel track," commented Stoddart.

The wider track, along with the flared wheel arches, give the Coupé 4 a much more aggressive look than its forebears,

[happy1]

In Norway which has heavy taxes on performance cars, I used to own a 1992 Ford Sierra 4x4. It started its life as 2-litre DOCH CLX 4x4, but I imported a Cosworth 4x4 parts car from Switzerland, and converted the drivetrain in my CLX to the full 2-litre Cosworth Turbo 4x4 specification and drivetrain. I got the conversion inspected for compliance with the original specifications of the 4x4 Cosworth by a local Ford dealer, and approved by Norwegian 'DOT'. Many others were doing the same, probably 100's of Cosworth drivetrains from Europe made it into base model shells in Norway.

Anyway, Both the Sierra CLX 4x4 and the Cosworth 4x4 had a sump with Front differential going through it, bolted to one side of the sump. The front rails on the 4x4 shells had a 'half moon' welded into them, approx. 80mm wide x 40 mm high, in order to give more clearance for the drive shafts. All shells from the 1989 facelift had a hump in the floor pan for the transfer case. At standard ride height the drive shafts kind of didn't need the half-moons in the front rails. Some people converting RWD sedans to 4x4 had to weld in the half-moon cut outs in the rails, but it was problematic to get it approved by 'DOT' if doing so.

If a Falcon AWD were to be standard ride height is probably also would need drive shafts very close to the rails. I believe the Territory SZ petrol AWD also has differential on the sump. (similar to the Diesel AWD). It would be interesting to study in detail where the hole is, to see if this differential would sit in a suitable location in an FG Falcon, and also to see if this sump would clear the FG sub frame. 4X4 is probably a too big project for DIY backyard, but if it can be done on many others such as the old Sierra 4x4, E90 BMW 3-series and R34 Skylines, it shouldn't be completely impossible on Falcons either.
Cheers,

[Gothefalcon]

Some good info in there, Happy1.... but there are no SZ Petrol AWD Terrys. From SZ the AWD was only available in Diesel unfortunately.
Had Ford moved the front diff housing to the I6s sump in the Terry... then it would be easy to fit into a later model Falcon... as the I6s are otherwise the same.
The next problem to solve is the front suspension's spindle upright... as the Terry's is too tall to enable lowering the suspension to XR/FPV ride heights... and even if you did relocate the upper & lower control arm pivot points higher in the body/chassis (which would be required)... the upper control arm wouldn't have enough upward swing movement before it hit the top of the tower.
A shorter spindle upright which will take the front driveshafts is required... and a revised subframe etc to tuck it up under the chassis, and raise the lower control arm pivots only would need to be designed/sourced/etc... and then perhaps the clearance issues under the chassis rails would also need to be addressed (as per the Sierra you mentioned)

Nothing is impossible... but using the Terry set-up is not the way it needs to be achieved if you want a lowered AWD Falcon. You'd need to look outside the Ford OZ square for the bits required. However.. for say, an AWD RTV... no problem !

BTW... I built my BF2 AWD Falcon Wagon in "the backyard"... so, with some perseverance... it can be done !

D

[XG_Falcon]

It's unfinished for a reason.

[happy1]

What about building a Diesel AWD falcon then? I have a repairable 2.7 TDV6 engine in my shed (little knocking sound) from a Territory SZ, and I have a subframe from an SZ too. I may get inspired to do some backyard R&D to see if the Lion V6 will fit under the bonnet of an FG shell ;) I haven't tried measuring the clearance between engine and bonnet on an SZ diesel yet. If this engine fits in much lower cars such as Citroen C5 and Jaguar S-type, then it may be possible to find enough clearance in under the
At least this engine takes the front differential onto the sump. (hole already there). Cheers