Automotive Industry and the Election

[FalconXV]

http://performancedrive.com.au/elect...o-sector-2917/

Wrote this piece to get people talking about this issue. Thoughts?

[Brazen]

Excellent article. Would be great to add comments from the respective Liberal, Labor and Nick Xenophon Team members.

[vztrt]

Guess the massive investment by Ford in r&d dont matter. Seeing as their suppliers as well as ford have increased jobs dont really matter.

[FalconXV]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Guess the massive investment by Ford in r&d dont matter. Seeing as their suppliers as well as ford have increased jobs dont really matter.

Yeah that's great and all, but it pales into insignificance compared to the scale of imminent job losses over the next few years; and what's to say it will still be around in 10-15 years once the developing countries it contracts to have reached maturity to do it themselves?

[Trump]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Yeah that's great and all, but it pales into insignificance compared to the scale of imminent job losses over the next few years; and what's to say it will still be around in 10-15 years once the developing countries it contracts to have reached maturity to do it themselves?

Quoted for truth. People don't seem to realise how much of an impact the shutdown of the three remaining manufacturers will have on the nation. It isn't "just" the end of car manufacturing, it is the end of large scale manufacturing in Australia, along with the loss of 200,000 jobs (taking into account component suppliers and associated third party job losses).

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Yeah that's great and all, but it pales into insignificance compared to the scale of imminent job losses over the next few years; and what's to say it will still be around in 10-15 years once the developing countries it contracts to have reached maturity to do it themselves?

In terms for Ford. Falcon/Terri manufacturing pales into insignificance to whats going on at the design center. Fords shutdown wont be that big of an impact.

People really underestimate the work and value add that comes from r&d.

As for longevity of the design centre the same can be said for most industries.

[Trump]

Originally Posted by vztrt

In terms for Ford. Falcon/Terri manufacturing pales into insignificance to whats going on at the design center. Fords shutdown wont be that big of an impact.

People really underestimate the work and value add that comes from r&d.

As for longevity of the design centre the same can be said for most industries.

The only reason Ford's R&D operation here is (still) viable is because the Indian and Chinese divisions aren't up to scratch yet for global platforms. Once they get the runs on the board, the Australian operation will be but a fond memory. It doesn't matter which way you look at it, they can hire five Indians or Chinese for the price of one Australian engineer.

[Crazy Dazz]

To the OP.
The Liberals have always pushed Free Trade. That is the very origins of their party. They also see no votes in saving blue-collar jobs.

The big question, which nobody seems to want to ask, is why the Labor party has betrayed Australian Workers?
The irony is that the seeds of this destruction were planted under Hawke and Keating, and the death sentence was effectively carried out under Kev & Joolya.

All the Libs did was sit back and watch the industry die.

The simple answer is that H&K were simply incompetent, they actually tried to help with the Button Plan, but failed miserably.
And the simple answer is that K&J sold out Australian Industry for the Green vote.
I don't think those simple answers really explain enough, but beyond them I don't know.

[FalconXV]

No, the Libs ripped away funding arrangements that were already in place thanks to public indignation drummed up by Murdoch media ( who received $800million tax rebate on the sly after Abbott was elected ;) ) .

They did this under the guise of the 'Productivity Commission', whose sole objective was to implement IPA measures.
Then Holden had no choice but to withdraw, causing a massive ripple effect that hasn't yet been felt. The Button plan may have sewn the seeds for this in the long term, but only because it wasn't revised. In any case, as the article states we could have moved into prestige cars- look how component suppliers are moving into carbonfibre even now, after they've had the rug ripped out from under them.


Free Trade agreements usually benefit the other side but not us for example- Thai cars sent here incurred no tarrif, but a Territory diesel sent there added 25% POST agreement. FTA's are not all they're cracked up to be they're not negotiated in a way which is hidden from the public. Look at the TPP that thing is cancer.

I didn't write this to push forth an agenda, just as a snapshot of today's state of affairs which whatever you wanna twist it just stinks and didn't need to happen.

How anyone can say it's a good thing is beyond me.

[Road_Warrior]

The Productivity Commission inquiry into the car industry was a complete sham. With Terms of Reference concocted by Treasurer Joe "poor people don't drive" Hockey and focused on a 1-dimensional aspect of consumerism instead of a more holistic look at strategic economic depth of such an industry, it was always going to end up in a predicable failure (the inquiry I mean).

And those blaming the Button Car Plan need to do some research on what it actually did and what it's purpose was. The Button Car Plan didn't force the Howard Government to start meddling with the AICS and roll back the tarrifs well past what was considered a sustainable level, despite industry pleas not to. This started circa 2002. The end result is what we're left with.

The Liberals hated the car industry for decades and wanted it gone. Labor did bugger all to fix it other than to throw money at the problem and hope it would go away.

It is worth noting that some automotive industry suppliers have reinvented themselves towards defence industry related stuff, some of them stand to gain big time with projects like Land 400 Ph2 and Ph3 in the wings which will have big local-build components.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

No, the Libs blah, blah, blah

Ok, so the truth comes out, you want to blame the Libs for everything.

As I said, the Libs have always been about Free Trade. That is literally the foundation of their party. Blaming them is like blaming a dog for licking its balls.
Plus, as I said, they don't see any votes in saving the jobs of blue-collar workers.

The question is why the Labor Party has done nothing.
No body in their right mind could possibly blame Abbott. Basically all he did was kick the rotting corpse to make sure it was really dead.
The Labor party had 6 years to mount a rescue operation and set the industry up for the future, and they didn't.
Lets also not forget that they have a role and a responsibility in opposition, to hold the government accountable, and yet I haven't heard a peep.

In WA we have a saying, if you want the roads improved vote Liberal, if you want the Trains improved vote Labor.
Fact is we alternate between the two over various periods. When each is in they push their agendas. Libs are always going to push free trade. So the question is NOT why did the Libs lower Tariffs, it's "why did Labor?"

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

And those blaming the Button Car Plan need to do some research on what it actually did and what it's purpose was.

As I said, Hawke & Keating TRIED, they simply failed.
The Button plan was a complete failure in its specific objectives, but I’d argue that the overall idea was a good one.
The failings were that the original specific objectives weren’t feasible, it was ignorant of and failed to allow for future trends, and inexplicably failed to anticipate the inevitable effects its policies would actually cause. Furthermore the government failed by trying to be too “middle of the road.” They had a mercantilist policy of specific outcomes, yet tried to enforce it with market forces. They should have chosen one path or the other, but instead tried to straddle both and got lost in the wilderness.

[FalconXV]

100% mate.

[FalconXV]

I think you're overlooking a lot there and the way you misquoted me was very juvenile very arrgoant.

England's auto industry was on the brink of oblivion it's thriving now. Sweden is roughly the same size as us and theirs thrives. Both get government assistance because they, like everyone else knows it pays back.

Calling the industry a rotting corpse when so many people are dependent on it is cynical and breathtaking in the extreme. I will maintain that it didn't have to be killed off and only happened because of Tory ideology.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

I think you're overlooking a lot there and the way you misquoted me was very juvenile very arrgoant.

England's auto industry was on the brink of oblivion it's thriving now. Sweden is roughly the same size as us and theirs thrives. Both get government assistance because they, like everyone else knows it pays back.

Calling the industry a rotting corpse when so many people are dependent on it is cynical and breathtaking in the extreme. I will maintain that it didn't have to be killed off and only happened because of Tory ideology.

Yup,& where do we get our "Nissans & Hondas"(granted not all the range.)from?Sunderland in the UK. They have a great auto industry.But.... Ford left a long time ago.Cheers

[cheap]

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

Yes some of the politicians didn't help and neither did the unions. But I fail to see why somone (for example me) has had to prop up an industry year upon year through my money (taxes) for them to build products which I do not want and have blue collar workers on wages (again using my money) way over what they're worth. Can someone explain the logic in that? And before you start, simply telling me that every country protects their auto industry is in my opinion total bull-dust and part of the reason for failure.

[bernbo]

Originally Posted by cheap

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

Yes some of the politicians didn't help and neither did the unions. But I fail to see why somone (for example me) has had to prop up an industry year upon year through my money (taxes) for them to build products which I do not want and have blue collar workers on wages (again using my money) way over what they're worth. Can someone explain the logic in that? And before you start, simply telling me that every country protects their auto industry is in my opinion total bull-dust and part of the reason for failure.

Since you think you don't have to prop up a valuable industry, you now get to prop up all the unemployed workers from all the related industries. It's this capitalistic ideal where as long as it doesn't affect me I don't care? You belong to a country, where it is beneficial to the country for it to survive. Go to America and all the ads on tv say "buy american, keep Americans in jobs" We don't have that sort of patriotism which is to our detriment. Thanks to others with your thinking we will keep selling everything off and we will only have part time cafe jobs left.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by bernbo

Since you think you don't have to prop up a valuable industry, you now get to prop up all the unemployed workers from all the related industries. It's this capitalistic ideal where as long as it doesn't affect me I don't care? You belong to a country, where it is beneficial to the country for it to survive. Go to America and all the ads on tv say "buy american, keep Americans in jobs" We don't have that sort of patriotism which is to our detriment. Thanks to others with your thinking we will keep selling everything off and we will only have part time cafe jobs left.

I think you've got the wrong end of the spectrum, it isn't capitalism which contributed to the decline but good old fashioned socialism, you know, the process where Govco spends our money until our money runs out, propping up failed industry, protectionism, high tariffs, providing free education, free health care, benefit after benefit and when the money runs out, simply borrow. The socialist magical place where everything works until the money runs out, a place like where we are right now!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by cheap

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

its easy to think like that when you don't take the time (like some of the contributors to this thread have) to research the decline of the industry. its a lot more complex than just pointing fingers at one or two factors.

even just on volume, the best selling cars in the country only sell about 3000/month. thats not enough to sustain a factory here. if they had 2 models, assuming both were high selling, it still isn't enough volume to maintain the plants here.

you need exports, but given the parent companies of all local marques have factories already pumping out high volumes in low rent countries, it just wasn't viable to ship them out of australia. then there's the dollar and exchange rates etc. no cars shipped to the US from australia have ever made money. ironically, the dollar is now back to where it makes much better sense but the horse has bolted.

there are many more factors.

it just isn't a simple discussion and you can't even really point the finger at one particular political party.

[Mercury Bullet]

Originally Posted by cheap

Here I was mistakenly thinking it was the fault of the manufacturers building cars people didn't want to buy/drive/own. Here I was mistakenly thinking they were building products which in some cases were over priced crap.

Yes some of the politicians didn't help and neither did the unions. But I fail to see why somone (for example me) has had to prop up an industry year upon year through my money (taxes) for them to build products which I do not want and have blue collar workers on wages (again using my money) way over what they're worth. Can someone explain the logic in that? And before you start, simply telling me that every country protects their auto industry is in my opinion total bull-dust and part of the reason for failure.

Tax payers prop up a lot of industries.
Why pick on car makers?

Have a look and see how much goes to Gina Rhinehart.
I even get government help, they subsidise my diesel.
If they didn't, you couldn't afford to eat!

[Trump]

Ease up on the party bashing. They are the two divisions of one entity.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Unfortunately for enthusiasts, the general public doesn't really care that much about the automotive industry in general. There are plenty of people that don't care (or even know) that Holden/Ford/Toyota are stopping local production. A lot of people care more about the price of electricity per KW than they do about the price of fuel per L.

I doubt cars come into many minds when they hear the word "election." Whether for right or wrong, that's how it is.

[FalconXV]

That's what I mean Junkyard Dawg, there's just apathy now that it's been swept under the carpet. Maybe 3D printing will allow people to make their own creations in their shed one day who knows.. I've always wanted to design and build my own car I used to draw them when I was a kid.

[Junkyard-Dog]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Maybe 3D printing will allow people to make their own creations in their shed one day who knows.. I've always wanted to design and build my own car I used to draw them when I was a kid.

Well, in any case it seems like we think along the exact same lines. I want to buy a 3D printer but my mate is trying to convince me to build one (like he did). All of my school books were covered in drawings...

[FalconXV]

Ha same and I filled scrap book after scrap book up with my imaginary model lines, 'engineered' from scratch'. I was a weird kid man.

[Junkyard-Dog]

In our lives, we've witnessed incredible advances in technology. I don't think it's a pipe-dream to say that soon enough, we will be able to design and manufacture our dream cars thanks to the silicon-chip. Making them road-legal will be the only hurdle to overcome.

I'll always be weird, I'm just not a kid any more.

[Dr Terry]

There's a few 'small' things that have been forgotten here.

1. Both GM-H & Ford Aust. had their finances hurt badly as their respective US parents nearly went under in the GFC & pulled extra funds from their Aust. operations. They were both forced to reduce their R & D investment & future model ranges.

2. Australian labour rates are too high for this type of manufacturing to be financially viable. Have a look at the wages of comparable car workers in the UK & USA for example.

3. Our population is too small (i.e. our tax base is too weak) to support an inefficient industry with subsidies. Both Labor & the Coalition waited too long to stop the subsidies. Rudd, Julia & Howard didn't have the balls.

4. I am deeply saddened, as are most Australians, to watch the death of our secondary manufacturing industry, but short of handing out billions of $$, what else can we do ?

Dr Terry

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Dr Terry

There's a few 'small' things that have been forgotten here.

1. Both GM-H & Ford Aust. had their finances hurt badly as their respective US parents nearly went under in the GFC & pulled extra funds from their Aust. operations. They were both forced to reduce their R & D investment & future model ranges.

2. Australian labour rates are too high for this type of manufacturing to be financially viable. Have a look at the wages of comparable car workers in the UK & USA for example.

3. Our population is too small (i.e. our tax base is too weak) to support an inefficient industry with subsidies. Both Labor & the Coalition waited too long to stop the subsidies. Rudd, Julia & Howard didn't have the balls.

4. I am deeply saddened, as are most Australians, to watch the death of our secondary manufacturing industry, but short of handing out billions of $$, what else can we do ?

Dr Terry

1- Ford had to cancel the Global RWD platform. during the GFC. It would have been Falcons saviour.

2- Complete rubbish. Auto workers in Germany make more than us and the yanks make about the same. Actually factoring in our dollar vs theirs they make more than we do, in a country that's cheaper to live in.

[Raptor]

I think the real reason that Australia will lose the car industry is because it was never an Australian industry. We just had off shoots from the majors in the US or Japan all squabbling for a small piece of pie and limiting the true potential that was available.

Very sad






.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I think the real reason that Australia will lose the car industry is because it was never an Australian industry. We just had off shoots from the majors in the US or Japan all squabbling for a small piece of pie and limiting the true potential that was available.

Very sad






.

There was never any hope of a totally Australia car company ever and if we did it would be just total backward rubbish.

It was a great thing that Australia did back with the FX Holden and all the other car makers from then on, as It really put the nation on the path to make many other products, without it all we would of been a backward 3rd world nation.

I can't believe people who bag outside company's who invest in our nation, all investments need to make money out of it, or why would they even bother.

(Drongo) Hey could someone help us here in Australia ?
(Nation) What do you want us to do for you.
(Drongo) XYZ but we don't want to give you nothing dude.
(Nation) Good luck dude, fork it or walk it, no one rides for free !

[jpblue1000]

You guys argue over he auto industry as if it was a government business.
All three manufacturers and all the suppliers are private owned businesses which make their own business decisions, and sometimes they convinced governments to protect, bail, support their bottom line.
Politicians only do what gets votes. Or is perceived to get votes, and in our feigning economy, transitioning to non manufacturing economy further reinforced the publics distaste of subsidies.
Furthermore the GFC hurt the auto industry at home in the US. Withdrawing manufacturing from less profitable remote countries and giving the jobs back to Americans was more palatable to them, their politicians and public. I believe mustang is evidence of this. They sell a car and an American built it! Win win.
Then the local guys didn't react to a changing market, they may have had their hands tied by HQ wanting to reinforce their home town manufacturing industry, but the fact is Australians stopped buying their product further exacerbating the problem.
I acknowledge the benefit to Australia in having a complex manufacturing industry, but a perfect storm has killed it and we ****ed the opportunity, like the mining boom, away
JP