Diesel is nearly dead?

xr8cam · 07-12-2016, 06:00 PM

Europe to ban diesel fueled cars in major cities as early as 2018. Headlines all over the media the other day.It has always suprised me how quickly diesel took off. I always thought the popularity was to do with these cars being cheaper to make, easy torque, little R&D, all the reasons car co's would market these as the next big thing. Now it appears that diesel is not the clean fuel we have been led to believe it to be, with VW fudging results a while back & plenty of conjecture to be found. It seems that because diesel emits more pollution in operation but less over time due to less fuel use, is not all its cracked up to be. Will be interesting to watch what the states & here do. There could be a hell of a lot of high end european diesels & turbo 4's going very cheaply sooner than we think. I wonder what the car sales folk are telling potential buyers?

chevypower · 07-12-2016, 06:05 PM

I still like the way they drive. I thought the Astra TDis were fun to drive with the manual gearbox. I love my 6.6L diesel, it's just so effortless. I think the only thing that can really replace it is full electric or FCV. Eventually, they probably will. Just look at the Nikola One.

SumoDog68 · 07-12-2016, 06:13 PM

If Europe was to ban diesel are from major cities that would take half of their cars out of circulation. Diesel car ownership is massive in Europe.

b0son · 07-12-2016, 06:19 PM

And yet, in a big heavy car, diesel just destroys the equivalent petrol in terms of economy when you throw stop/start in and/or remove freeway. Its no contest. Yes, the diesel has a lot less power, but even lower power petrols seem to use way more fuel around town than a diesel. Considering traffic only ever seems to get worse, it's very likely I'll be shopping for a diesel next time.

xr8cam · 07-12-2016, 06:25 PM

I should point out I have nothing against diesel cars or the people that buy them. I have posted this because I thought it was typical of governments going off half cocked and I thought a lot of people would be interested.

Powdered Toast Man · 07-12-2016, 06:27 PM

Turbo petrol engines have come a long way. They now make good torque down low, have little to no lag and increase fuel efficiency through downsizing the engine capacity while still making decent power. So no need for diesels in small cars now.

Not gonna kill off diesel SUVs or trucks any time soon though.

blackf6 · 07-12-2016, 06:45 PM

Diesel is dead. Pull the other one mate. Farms, trucks, trains. The actual machines that keep this country fed, shelves stocked, freight moved. All run on diesel. Diesel cars were only ever a yuppie type fad anyway.

asagaai · 07-12-2016, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackf6

Diesel is dead. Pull the other one mate. Farms, trucks, trains. The actual machines that keep this country fed, shelves stocked, freight moved. All run on diesel. Diesel cars were only ever a yuppie type fad anyway.

Uh - what about ships- the things that move coal, food, products between countries across the world.

roddy1960 · 07-12-2016, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackf6

Diesel is dead. Pull the other one mate. Farms, trucks, trains. The actual machines that keep this country fed, shelves stocked, freight moved. All run on diesel. Diesel cars were only ever a yuppie type fad anyway.

G'day...I totally agree . As a classic example rail freight across the country is essential . It's way cheaper per tonne than road freight..The mining diesel electrics locomotives upwards of 6000 horse power ie BHP Billiton , Rio Tinto , Hammersley Iron are phenomenal and state based general freight services are hugely important to us all.. Many passenger services too.. The the iconic Road Trains , Then the bus services , vast earth moving needs to keep the country ticking along..
Will be interesting to see where Europe heads on the passenger car bans re diesel ... For anyone interested here's a link to a vid on a world record shift of almost 100,000 tonnes a few years ago.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZgodWbEuG4 ...Imagine getting caught at the crossing on this one if you were late for work...Cheers Rod...

EBSXR6 · 07-12-2016, 06:57 PM

A mate works for BMW and he was told the proposed next Euro emissions was going to be very difficult pass with a diesel.

aussie muscle · 08-12-2016, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EBSXR6

A mate works for BMW and he was told the proposed next Euro emissions was going to be very difficult pass with a diesel.

If trump carries out his election promises, the usa will scale back their emissions regulations, so europe will be able to dump their dirty diesels there.

Vesper Martini · 09-12-2016, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

If trump carries out his election promises, the usa will scale back their emissions regulations, so europe will be able to dump their dirty diesels there.

Highly unlikely, its not easy to import a vehicle to the US, unless its 25 years old...

Note US Petrol & Diesel prices are about the same 65c per Litre, I believe there is no culture to use diesel cars there either.

simon varley · 07-12-2016, 07:20 PM

ships - no emissions legislation.
trucks - 'relatively' easier to meet emissions on a big low revving engine
cars/suvs - much as I love the torque, chucking 10 grands worth of after treatment on them to meet standards doesn't make any sense.

they are going....

and most Eu major cities already have some form of car restriction. banning private diesels won't impact many people too much, especially with the good public transport network in most Eu cities.

Paull · 08-12-2016, 11:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by asagaai

Uh - what about ships- the things that move coal, food, products between countries across the world.

Ships don't run on diesel, they use heavy fuel oil (HFO)

Quote:

Originally Posted by simon varley

ships - no emissions legislation.

Wrong, ships at sea have to comply with MARPOL

**DJR-351** · 08-12-2016, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paull

Ships don't run on diesel, they use heavy fuel oil (HFO)

Wrong, ships at sea have to comply with MARPOL

1. Not quite true, most big stuff, tankers, bulky's, container ships etc only run on HFO out at sea, when approaching the coast and entering harbour the engines are switched to Diesel, and most of them will be gone in a decade. All vessels in the offshore oil & gas run on Diesel, anchor handlers, supply vessels, construction vessels, dive support vessels, drill rigs etc, All cruise ships now run on Diesel, no HFO at all there. HFO is a fast dying duck in all sectors, in fact have a look at LNG powered ships, lots of them starting to get around.

2. Correct, also lots of countries/states have implemented/proposed legislation re fuel emission regs within their boundary's, NSW with there low sulphur fuel requirements for visiting cruise ships is one in the news at the moment...

Itsme · 08-12-2016, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paull

Ships don't run on diesel, they use heavy fuel oil (HFO)
Wrong, ships at sea have to comply with MARPOL

What era are you talking when saying ships use oil, most modern ships use diesel engines.

Paull · 08-12-2016, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trublu

What era are you talking when saying ships use oil, most modern ships use diesel engines.

I am talking about this era. When you say 'modern ships', yes, they use so called diesel engines but can use any form of fuel oil, see below.

Simply marine naming of fuel oil. In that, the ships main engines can be burning any type of fuel oil, such as - MGO (Marine gas oil), MDO (Marine diesel oil), IFO (Intermediate fuel oil), MFO (Marine fuel oil) or HFO (Heavy fuel oil)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DJR-351

1. Not quite true, most big stuff, tankers, bulky's, container ships etc only run on HFO out at sea, when approaching the coast and entering harbour the engines are switched to Diesel, and most of them will be gone in a decade. All vessels in the offshore oil & gas run on Diesel, anchor handlers, supply vessels, construction vessels, dive support vessels, drill rigs etc, All cruise ships now run on Diesel, no HFO at all there. HFO is a fast dying duck in all sectors, in fact have a look at LNG powered ships, lots of them starting to get around.

When I say 'ship' I mean an actual ship, not an offshore supply vessel or any of the other small vessels that you have listed. That is, an ocean going bulk transportation ship, as per regards to the content of the post, that utilises slow speed marine engines. And yes, when coming on Standby, they will change over to MDO or the likes but this accounts for only about 2 to 4% of the total ships main engine running hours and therefore, not relevant. Yes, can also factor in shipping in environmental control areas, but once again, these are limited at this point in time. Lastly, in regards to HFO being a dead duck, this is very much dependent upon the pricing of LNG: absolutely great in theory, especially for the ever suffering Marine Engineer having to deal with HFO and the likes, and also the management of MARPOL Annex 6. That is, if LNG pricing rises, I am thinking the ship-owner would prefer exhaust emission management as compared to either new build LNG vessels or re-powering.

simon varley · 07-12-2016, 07:21 PM

a relatively few commercial vehicles can afford to be more polluting individually than millions of passenger cars. Once passenger car diesels have gone we may perhaps see no further tightening of commercial emission legislation

CyberWasp · 07-12-2016, 07:36 PM

We don't have to sit here and cop what direction other countries decide to take the motor vehicle industry in.
We have our own motor vehicle industry here, and we can make what ever we damn well............hang on a second...

Ben73 · 07-12-2016, 08:05 PM

In cars, yes.
In everything bigger, no.

I am sort of sick of driving diesel every day. I think Ill get a petrol next time. But as a fan of 4x4, I'm not sure how that will work.

Quote:

Originally Posted by roddy1960

G'day...I totally agree . As a classic example rail freight across the country is essential . It's way cheaper per tonne than road freight..The mining diesel electrics locomotives upwards of 6000 horse power ie BHP Billiton , Rio Tinto ,

I once figured out that diesel electric coal trains are more fuel efficient per tonne than a Prius.

It's also amazing how far trains can roll once they get going if the terrain is right. I know around here there is one part when a 10,000 tonne train can roll for about 30kms of a 40km long section. That's just free momentum.

Deo · 07-12-2016, 08:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

a 10,000 tonne train can roll for about 30kms of a 40km long section.

That'd be in either direction then?

Sent from my GTi-9305 using bloody Tapatalk

xr8cam · 08-12-2016, 07:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ben73

In cars, yes.
In everything bigger, no.

I am sort of sick of driving diesel every day. I think Ill get a petrol next time. But as a fan of 4x4, I'm not sure how that will work.

I once figured out that diesel electric coal trains are more fuel efficient per tonne than a Prius.

It's also amazing how far trains can roll once they get going if the terrain is right. I know around here there is one part when a 10,000 tonne train can roll for about 30kms of a 40km long section. That's just free momentum.

What do you think has been the "cheaper" car to own in your personal experience. Diesel or petrol? Factor in all costs.

Yellow_Festiva · 07-12-2016, 08:25 PM

I think this is being looked at the wrong way. They are great engines other than the pollution, so rather than ban them solve the pollution problem.

Some sort of filter on the exhaust???

When I was in uni Mr Dyson himself gave us a lecture. He told us he had put forward proposals to the roads people of a filtration system for the tunnel exhaust stacks (all the talk on the media at the time).

They had developed a filtration system that could filter cigarette smoke from the air!

So, why not just work out a way to build a filter into future cars?

Or is that too simplistic a solution?

naddis01 · 07-12-2016, 11:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

I think this is being looked at the wrong way. They are great engines other than the pollution, so rather than ban them solve the pollution problem.

Some sort of filter on the exhaust???

When I was in uni Mr Dyson himself gave us a lecture. He told us he had put forward proposals to the roads people of a filtration system for the tunnel exhaust stacks (all the talk on the media at the time).

They had developed a filtration system that could filter cigarette smoke from the air!

So, why not just work out a way to build a filter into future cars?

Or is that too simplistic a solution?

Like a Diesel Particulate Filter that is on many diesels now?

Yellow_Festiva · 08-12-2016, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by naddis01

Like a Diesel Particulate Filter that is on many diesels now?

No,

Something that is more serviceable and cheaper to maintain.

Modern cars with a DPF are still posing a problem with emissions so it has to be something on top of what is being currently used.

Vesper Martini · 08-12-2016, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

No,

Something that is more serviceable and cheaper to maintain.

Modern cars with a DPF are still posing a problem with emissions so it has to be something on top of what is being currently used.

LPG as part of the mixture

cheap · 08-12-2016, 03:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

LPG as part of the mixture

Not LPG, but CNG. There is a lot of research underway in this technology.

Massive reduction in pollution with even better economy. Better still fill the CNG tank from an outlet at home...

Franco Cozzo · 08-12-2016, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

LPG as part of the mixture

Thats old news, distilled water and methanol does a much better job with diesels (I have a WMI kit on my TDCI Focus) with an injector thats too small for the engine size we picked up 7KW at the wheels

xr8cam · 07-12-2016, 09:07 PM

Even though I put a ? mark after the statement and it is a story about European cities, most miss the point and become aggressive. Read whats in front of you people and try to remember someone else's post is not a personal attack.

383hq · 07-12-2016, 09:19 PM

1. WHO changed diesel exhaust fumes rating from Probable to Proven carcinogenic.
2. the ban on diesel cars would only affect new sales, most likely because of the legal ramifications from 1 ? very unlikely it would be a retrospective law for current reg cars
3. Diesel-Electric locomotives are cheap because of the electric part - which is the same reason the TGV's and bullet trains are very economical at 180-217mph compared to all other forms of moving a thousand people or so at a time.

having said all of that, I find my diesel banger a good thing in the country.