Moffat/Brock call for higher age restrictions

4Vman · 19-03-2006, 05:41 PM

I read with interest in todays Sun/Herald that Moffat and Brock both believe that the power restricted licence for powerful cars should be raised from age 21 to age 25.
Their reasoning was the cars are much more powerful now and that maturity was an issue with driving them, they also believed young drivers should earn the right to drive these vehicles before being elligible.
In the same article the College for Surgeons also suggested that once 25 is reached they must pass a further advanced driving skills test to be elligable to drive high powered vehicles.

Interesting...

ClevlndStemer · 19-03-2006, 05:59 PM

i think its a good idea. even if they don't increase the age limit there should be some kind of mandatory advanced driving test for people wanting to buy high powered cars. I know it isn't the same but a good example is all the Ford GT crashes of late, people just have too much money and not enough skill.

mik · 19-03-2006, 05:59 PM

the advanced driving would be a good thing for every one , power restrictions aren`t really that much of a deterent to someone whos willing to modify a car for more power anyways, and secondly you can wrap a honda civic around a tree just as easily as fast car,......better of teaching the youngies some discipline in schools before they get there licence, restricting power will make it more like forbidden fruit nothing will change

Group C · 19-03-2006, 06:00 PM

It's good to see that a few of the better know names of Oz motorsport have put their opinions forward on this.
But before changing the rules, why don't they enforce the rules that stand already?? I mean, how many VL turbo's, with all the fast bits, do you see with 'P' plates, let alone the WRX's and all the rest??

Personally, I think it's still too easy to get a drivers license in this country.
I would like to see EVERY 'learner' do a defensive driver course, like a Murcott/Luff/Bowe one, and pass it, BEFORE they can even go for their license. That way, at least they should have an idea of how to control a car if something goes wrong.

And I say a 'defensive' course for a reason.
I don't think that an advanced course, like a race driver type course, would be appropriate, as this might give them a sense of 'invincability' that would be dangerous in itself.

I wish I had done a defensive course before I got my license, because I just thought that I was a fantastic driver from day 1, like most of us do, but I soon learnt that I wasn't.
It wasn't until I got my backside on a race track that I realised that what I knew wasn't the right way of doing things, simply because 90% of us learn our driving 'skills' from our parents/relatives/friends, and while they may have good intenions, all they really do is pass on the bad driving habits they have developed in their driving years...
I'm not saying I'm the best driver ever, because I'm far from it, but I feel that I'm much better now (after the required courses for a CAMS G/C-Level 3 license, and after nearly 10 years of racing) than I was at 18.

Just my thoughts, is all.

4Vman · 19-03-2006, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Group C

It's good to see that a few of the better know names of Oz motorsport have put their opinions forward on this.
But before changing the rules, why don't they enforce the rules that stand already?? I mean, how many VL turbo's, with all the fast bits, do you see with 'P' plates, let alone the WRX's and all the rest??

Personally, I think it's still too easy to get a drivers license in this country.
I would like to see EVERY 'learner' do a defensive driver course, like a Murcott/Luff/Bowe one, and pass it, BEFORE they can even go for their license. That way, at least they should have an idea of how to control a car if something goes wrong.

And I say a 'defensive' course for a reason.
I don't think that an advanced course, like a race driver type course, would be appropriate, as this might give them a sense of 'invincability' that would be dangerous in itself.

I wish I had done a defensive course before I got my license, because I just thought that I was a fantastic driver from day 1, like most of us do, but I soon learnt that I wasn't.
It wasn't until I got my backside on a race track that I realised that what I knew wasn't the right way of doing things, simply because 90% of us learn our driving 'skills' from our parents/relatives/friends, and while they may have good intenions, all they really do is pass on the bad driving habits they have developed in their driving years...
I'm not saying I'm the best driver ever, because I'm far from it, but I feel that I'm much better now (after the required courses for a CAMS G/C-Level 3 license, and after nearly 10 years of racing) than I was at 18.

Just my thoughts, is all.

Agree'd, its way too easy to get a licence.
I spent the best part of 6 years driving paddock bashers, racing motorbikes, trucks, tractors etc on our friends farm nearly every weekend before turning 18, the experience i got from that has been invaluable and certainly helped me to gain perspective.
Ive done 4 advanced driving courses and got a restricted CAMS licence because i have a healthy respect for the performance cars i enjoy driving.
Id happily support a mandatory advanced driving licence for anything with 195+KW
I wonder if the support of people like Moffat and Brock will have any flow on effect with the Govt to the car manufacturers though....

EBII Fairmont · 19-03-2006, 06:15 PM

I find the current system for getting your p-plates is a bit of a joke. It was such an easy test, and because of that I know too many people who are currently driving, who should have their license thrown away. I don't believe I am the greatest driver, but I am better than what I was 2 years ago when I initialli got them. I only appreciated that I was lucky enough to have a lisence was when I nearly cause a four car pile up.

I believe there shouldn't be need for another test when you are 25. The system should be in place from when we go for our L-plates.

But even you need to pass a test to drive a more powerful car, whats stopping someone from turning a car which is not that fast, into something that can do 9 second quarter miles, even if they don't have the lisence?

Bill

TSERIES · 19-03-2006, 06:17 PM

I must say i agree with raising the age of consent to drive high powered vechicles , i was 17 years old when i got my liecence in wa and my first car was a x pursuit 351 manual xd ....i was what everyone at that age is behind the wheel of a high powered car a purue maniac on the roads with no regard for the law ....BUT theres always a but lol i did know my limitations ,theres a difference,someone who exceeds there skills behind the wheel of a car is deadly to themselves and others ....and the youth of today not all but most have no idea or respect for high powered cars and something needs to be done to educate them when my son is of age i will make sure i do my best to make sure he is educated and responsible behind the wheel of a car .....i dont want a police officer at my door step at 3am with bad news ...
next time your out on the road take note of the behaviour of our younger drivers male and female

ps sorry for the poor grammar school wasnt my scene hanging out working on fords was ....lol

cheers

4Vman · 19-03-2006, 06:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xw gtho phase 2

I must say i agree with raising the age of consent to drive high powered vechicles , i was 17 years old when i got my liecence in wa and my first car was a x pursuit 351 manual xd ....i was what everyone at that age is behind the wheel of a high powered car a purue maniac on the roads with no regard for the law ....BUT theres always a but lol i did know my limitations ,theres a difference,someone who exceeds there skills behind the wheel of a car is deadly to themselves and others ....and the youth of today not all but most have no idea or respect for high powered cars and something needs to be done to educate them when my son is of age i will make sure i do my best to make sure he is educated and responsible behind the wheel of a car .....i dont want a police officer at my door step at 3am with bad news ...
next time your out on the road take note of the behaviour of our younger drivers male and female

ps sorry for the poor grammar school wasnt my scene hanging out working on fords was ....lol

cheers

Yep! id say im 3 times as good a driver now @ 37 as i was when i was 21 yet looking back now id say id take about 1 third the amount of risks in a car now than what i would have then...

Food for thought.

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 06:12 PM

I would be happy for the Driver training tests...
I would prefer it to be at 21...

But... If i have a full licence and have to do a driver training course to be qualified to own a Performance Car, every other Australian who has a full licence (whether you have had your licence for 1 months or 20+ years) should also have to do the course and Pass.

If it's fair for one it Fair for all!

Josh_XC · 19-03-2006, 06:27 PM

in someways i agree, but i am a p plater at the moment age 19 and i got a XC 351. i agree it would save lives, but honestly ppl are maniacs in what ever car they have powerful or not. I dont know how many times arseholes in swifts/vls any little ricer tries to drag u or tries going sideways around the cornor. The fact is i know a lot of people my age with powerful cars that treat and respect them.

The fact is people are going to be idiots in any car regardless of the power. Just look around and there are many examples of this, my answer to this problem is not restrictions like many think (government) but education, i beleive people have to go throw a manditory driver education/driving school course or something, i did and i loved it, it was fun, taught me how to control a car in its uncontrollable stage, usefull stuff like that.

Just my 2 cents

4Vman · 19-03-2006, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh_XC

The fact is people are going to be idiots in any car regardless of the power.

Yes, but an idiot in a laser can't get himself into nearly as much trouble in nearly as short a period of time than in a XR6T.......
That said if said "Idiot" had a few more years experience driving off road to gain car control skills or atleast an appreciation for what being an "idiot" might cause then he might not carry on like one....

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Id happily support a mandatory advanced driving licence for anything with 195+KW

So would i im 17 going for my P's in august and woud love to see something like this put in place, the lack of driver training and poor testing standards in Australia is what is killing younger drivers not powerfull cars!

Outbackjack · 19-03-2006, 06:44 PM

I would support any system where you got a basic license, like "P" plates, then you spent time training doing endorsments on that license. Just like the aviation industry. When you do pilot traing you are taught to fly, not just how to pass the test at the end of the course. You get a basic license that allows you to fly anywhere in OZ (and the world for that matter) in good (VFR) weather. But to fly higher performance aircraft you must pass theory and practicle tests. I know of a young girl who got her UPPL at 16. She could pilot her feinds anywhere in Australia, but her dad had to drive here to the airport. Car license should be the same. A driver should have to prove that he/she has the skills and the correct mentality before they earn the priviledge of driving performance vehicles. Age should not be the only deciding factor. In fact I have seen people with the wrong attitude to flying being turned away from training. Car license should be the same, weed out the d1ck heads and let them use public transport. Just me 2.2 cents worth.

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 06:34 PM

Quote:

The fact is people are going to be idiots in any car regardless of the power. Just look around and there are many examples of this, my answer to this problem is not restrictions like many think (government) but education, i beleive people have to go throw a manditory driver education/driving school course or something, i didnt and i loved it, it was fun, taught me how to control a car in its uncontrollable stage, usefull stuff like that.

I agree 100%

4Vman · 19-03-2006, 06:37 PM

I really pitty Kids who's first driving experience is in a car on a public road as a learner, i can't fathom how intimidating it must be, nor can i understand how 3 months later they can be in charge of a motor vehicle alone on the open roads.
As i said ive been very fortunate to be able to spend considerable time controlling small and large vehicles for many years before getting my L's.
Ive often thought that if litigation and insurance companies weren't so prevelant in our every day society there would be more cheap and accesible forms of motorsport for kids aged 15 to 18 to participate in and gain car control skills from.
You only have to look at the rate that motorcycle parks are closing at to know that insurance premiums are killing teenage motorsport, and if people werent so "gung ho" about sueing everyone for anything these days im sure it wouldnt be such an issue, unfortunatly the kids suffer, people die as a result of poor skills and the lawyers get richer.

Josh_XC · 19-03-2006, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

I really pitty Kids who's first driving experience is in a car on a public road as a learner, i can't fathom how intimidating it must be, nor can i understand how 3 months later they can be in charge of a motor vehicle alone on the open roads.

3 months later? doesnt it take like 2 years or something now to get off ya l's i cant remember what they have changed it to.

flappist · 19-03-2006, 06:48 PM

The problem is not only age it is experience. You only get experience by driving.
Environment has a lot to do with it too. Country kids are used to long distance and highway driving but freak out in city traffic.
City kids are used to craziness but almost fall asleep with bordem in the bush.

I have seen many 40+ year olds (some at FPV days) who should only be allowed a Hyundai and I have also seen some 17 year olds who would have no problem in a Porsche.

To get a pilot's licence requires many hours training both practical and theory along with very stringent testing and re testing every two years.
It also requires training and testing for every flying style and aircraft type.

In cars terms, you would need to be tested separately for day driving, night driving, driving in rain, driving in cities, driving a manual, driving a V8, driving a 4WD etc. etc.

The end result of this would be safer drivers but the cost both financially and politically would be horrendous.

We are stuck with the problem and it is not going to go away.....

Pedro · 20-03-2006, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

The problem is not only age it is experience. You only get experience by driving.

To get a pilot's licence requires many hours training both practical and theory along with very stringent testing and re testing every two years.
It also requires training and testing for every flying style and aircraft type.

In cars terms, you would need to be tested separately for day driving, night driving, driving in rain, driving in cities, driving a manual, driving a V8, driving a 4WD etc. etc.

The end result of this would be safer drivers but the cost both financially and politically would be horrendous.

We are stuck with the problem and it is not going to go away.....

OK. But governments are doing NOTHING about it, just putting up more speed cameras and telling us this will save lives.

Scott · 19-03-2006, 06:50 PM

Unsure & no too fussed. IMO driver ability should not be a key decider. Driver maturity (no, not in years) is the metric that decides if most people are gonna make a mess of driving high powered cars. That said, I read an article in Motor Mag a couple of years ago which supported my long term thoughts that driving like a d1ckhead was a minor contirbuter to the overall crash stats (they were SA stats). Complacency & lack of attention causes the most accidents & deaths on our roads by a mile. A mature driver is less likely to be complacent (or stupid) whether in a Street Weapon or an Echo.

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 07:11 PM

Quote:

I have seen many 40+ year olds (some at FPV days) who should only be allowed a Hyundai and I have also seen some 17 year olds who would have no problem in a Porsche.

I have seen the same thing at my fathers FPV day one guy didn't get his GT out of 2nd gear around Calder (Im not being an idiot) up the the limiter back off way before the corner shoot throughup to the limiter back off...

Where one of my best mates who just moved to WA, Drives a VYII SS M6, not legally meant to in out 'Great' state of Victoria, would have put to shame every adult driver i know bar one in skilled driving tests.

So now why is it that someone 40 years like the guy at my dads drive day who can't really drive gets and automatic entry into being "Experienced" enough to drive a performance car, but my friend who is 19 who is a much more skilled driver is banned from such cars?

Keepleft · 19-03-2006, 07:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV8U

So now why is it that someone 40 years like the guy at my dads drive day who can't really drive gets and automatic entry into being "Experienced" enough to drive a performance car, but my friend who is 19 who is a much more skilled driver is banned from such cars?

Emotional development. (This goes along with and explains longer log book hours, 100-120 hours you see).

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keepleft

Emotional development. (This goes along with and explains longer log book hours, 100-120 hours you see).

Could you please explain what you mean, do you mean as in being able to control your self under peer preasure or ???

Not having a go just trying to understand what your trying to say.

Feathers · 19-03-2006, 07:26 PM

Would make sense, considering most places won't insure you in those type of cars until you're 25 or over. (Some places I called when I was looking for insurance said 30)

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Feathers

Would make sense, considering most places won't insure you in those type of cars until you're 25 or over. (Some places I called when I was looking for insurance said 30)

RACV will insure me later this year in a the XR8 in my Sig at 18, sure it's not real cheap, but they will insure me.

mik · 19-03-2006, 08:13 PM

i think the p platers will get into trouble regardless of power, unless they are a bit more educated and diciplined, my first car was probably lucky to have 60 kws, ........4vman i think you can get into trouble just as fast but with not the same road speed, only good luck not good judgement im here today,

WILDTRAKPX2 · 19-03-2006, 08:20 PM

Yes, you could wrap any car around a tree but the odds of it happening with a kid behind the wheel of a high powered car skyrocket.

FPV8U · 19-03-2006, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shockwave XR8

Yes, you could wrap any car around a tree but the odds of it happening with a kid behind the wheel of a high powered car skyrocket.

Do you have any actual evidence of this?

Think about all the accidents you see of P'Platers on the news 99.9% of them are basic falcons or commodores lowered with a set or rims!

I can't actually remember the last time i saw a P plater in a High performance car smashed on the news!

**Kingsley** · 19-03-2006, 08:47 PM

There probably are a number of young people resposible enough to own high performance cars. They're sadly let down by those who aren't. Laws are passed not to punish those capable or responsible, but to protect the lowest common denominator who would by flat out handling a billy cart. Also, skill comes with experirence, something most young drivers don't have. Part answer would be proper driver education classes at school and advance driver style training.

hobo · 19-03-2006, 09:07 PM

A mate of mine has only ever driven and onwned gutless 4cyl pos cars, yet he would have to be among the top ten maniac dangerous p-plate drivers in NSW and has already snapped a 720 datsun ute in half around a power pole after having his Ps for less than 3 months, on the other hand i have another mate that has only driven v8s and few nice 6s and he is the most sensible, calm, and skilled p plater i ever seen. i think it is VERY unfair to deny all p-platers decent cars, but there are alway ИИИИwits that screw the rest of us over. i dont beleive banning p platers from driving high powered cars is the answer.

brenx · 19-03-2006, 09:13 PM

It's all good on paper but finally getting to 25 and jumping from your 1.3lt 20kw barina into a 250-300kw whatever is still going to get that inexperienced driver in trouble. Why do I say the drivers inexperienced? You can drive a 20kw barina round all day @ 100% WOT. Jump into the higher powered car using normal driving habbits and they'll end up running into someone or something.

They need experience in the higher power vehicle not ИИИИters.