Global platforms are the only way forward

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by LOCO XP

This got me thinking. Word of the day:

A euphemism is a substitution of an agreeable or less offensive expression in place of one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant to the listener, or in the case of doublespeak, to make it less troublesome for the speaker

So you'd use this if you lacked what it takes to tell it straight yeah??

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

In all honesty you cant devalue anothers opinion on the product simply because they wont buy new.
I wouldn't, especially with a Ford product, as the depriciation on delivery added to the poor resale hurts the hip pocket too much.

Personally I'd hunt around for a clean low k 2-3yr old and save the 15k

Its a complex scenario isnt it, im trying to put perspective here, how do you criticise a product you've never owned, driven or seen with your own eyes? how do you criticise a company you've never purchased from? Im not trying to start a war, but you've got to admit, they're good questions.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Its a complex scenario isnt it, im trying to put perspective here, how do you criticise a product you've never owned, driven or seen with your own eyes? how do you criticise a company you've never purchased from? Im not trying to start a war, but you've got to admit, they're good questions.

I for one agree, these questions need to be asked and answered, Ford have had RWD cars out there since adam was a boy, yet the sales figures dont lie, the were not moving them as fast as other makes (traditionaly Holden).

So if a company cant sell whats on offer, what is it to do, its a no brainer : it needs to try other options.

The other problem Ford has always had to overcome is the fact that Holden has always been classed as Australia,s only true car (even though most of us know the truth behind that fable haha) and the sentimental favorite for most Australians, i know of families that have bought nothing but Holdens no matter what they serve up.

So i ask, if you dont like what is already on offer, and you dont like what is going to be offered, what do you want???????

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

I cant believe this is still an issue, some need to let go and move on.

As for all this crap about FWD v's RWD V's AWD on the track blah blah blah...FFS, we are talking about mass produced family affordable motoring, not the weapon of choice for a handful of speed junkies who still haven't passed puberty and think a fast car is a way of impressin' the chicks.

Theres nothing wrong with a FWD mondeo sized car if it's intended purpose is to simply cart around two adults and 2 kids.

You want a race car, build one!

Originally Posted by BENT_8

So you'd use this if you lacked what it takes to tell it straight yeah??

No you would use it against a post like this.

It’s a rather youthful connotation of a rather arrogant and ignorant statement.

Had I meant euphemism I would have said so. Hope that has made it clearer for you and apologise for not being straight enough.
But I shall rectify that now.

“You can’t believe this is still an issue”

Well seeing as the conversation is on this site and we have just ended a poll that said 91% wouldn’t purchase a FWD Falcon what sort of YOUTHFULL bliss concluded it still wouldn’t be cause for conversation.

When your point of view is very much a minority view amongst the audience in question what sort of YOUTHFULL BLISS would conclude that the correct terminology would be "crap" Clearly the issue being spoken of are of significance to the people speaking.

Your name and its continued reference to this subject is purely due to this post and its lack of tact and consideration for a subject many will find passionate.

Your “youthenisum” for the subject is misplaced.

Hence it is sentiment and not factual that is at fault

[HSE2]

In terms of the parent divisions GM is reportedly deeper in trouble.

This isn't about which product or idealogy is better. If people were to argue the merits of the platform from a consumer perspective FWD wouldn't win.

A successful argument could be made that Ford US must offer AWD and added expense and complexity due to the failings of the FWD underpinning. Put another way it’s unlikely AWD would be an option on such basic products if RWD was the platform of choice. While I would probably like to claim that as factual it isn’t and no more than an educated guess.

Once upon a time FWD actually had a very good reason to exist in terms of consumer values. The extra weight over the driven wheels made them the weapon of choice for users in climates of a "slippery" nature. Packaging advances due to the lack of a rear prop shaft allowed the fitment of a flat floor. Improved fuel economy due to the decreased weight, not design philosophy, returned a decisive advantage during the oil shock of the 70s.
Less moving parts was also seen as an advantage, the fact that those fewer parts increased consumer repair bills wasn’t advertised freely.

Manufacturing FWD products was and continues to be cheaper than RWD.

While Ford might like to claim FWD has come a long way in terms of dynamics, the truth is essentially the opposite. No manufacturer is going to tell you the truth in such a matter. It s a bit like singing the virtues of a live rear axle or cast iron engine block. Sound familiar?

They will tell you what you want to hear. Advances in electronics have essentially wiped out FWD advantage on low grip surfaces and they have done so at a minimal cost penalty. Fuel efficiency is more to do with mass. Developmental improvements tend to come from the higher markets which predominately have rear wheel drive underpinnings.

When Ford declared they wanted to rethink their direction on front wheel drive products they did so with a nod of recognition that what they have doesn't work without the extra cost of adding AWD. AWD Fords are compromised due to the FWD platform they sit on. They originally were designed to save weight so the addition of a rear prop shaft on a front wheel drive application A) negated the advantage it originally held and B) compromised the end AWD product.

Our new President wasn’t exaggerating when he proclaimed we have the best product portfolio in the Ford world. Spend some time on other markets websites to see the truth within.

A quick look at both major websites also reveals the true contraction Ford is living.

One Ford isn't product driven. It’s about a fight to survive. The economic forward plight is nearly irrelevant when a statement concludes that "there will always be a large car segment" just a much smaller one than in the past. The question becomes how we get an economically viable slice of that pie.

Ford has to work out how to remain profitable while minimising capital when there is no capital to be had. Enter stage right One Ford. One Ford isn’t about replacing manufacturing bases that are efficient and everything about minimising replication and delivering economies of scale but not without logistical acceptation.

Importing when the dollar is subjected to the volatility as is and is likely to be, is a risk. Maintaining separate platforms is inefficient. What people will buy and the reason for are subjective and ideally not suited to ridicule as are the opinions on which they are based. Purporting the simplicity of reality won’t change consumer minds in the face of alternate choice.

Ford’s fundamental question will have to be "why do we continue to underachieve with a platform that is globally recognised as being top of the tree and a segment FWD dominates in?" What logical rational would conclude that adding size to that equation will solve Fords issues? That’s all being said with ignorance to the bottom line. Volume alone doesn’t dictate profitability.

The same equation that makes a new RWD Falcon unlikely also pretty much ends direct importation of a right hand drive version of a global platform unless its from existing infrastructure and established markets which, until proven otherwise, must include Ford Australia. Approximately two thirds of the world motoring is conducted in markets America defaults to. There is a division called Ford Asia Pacific of which we appear to be a major player and part base with good reason. (Actually the name might have changed to include SA)

Strip the UK from the numbers on our side of the fence and you are left with population centres the likes of India atop of the development tree.

There is a much more likely scenario that isn’t as grounded in the dome and gloom of the current, speculative climate but it does depend on Ford maintaining Focus production. My enquires on this issue have revealed that it still appears to be very much moving forward but my contacts are also likely to be the last to know.

GM have made a much greater commitment to RWD infrastructure. The equation is the same but different. While Ford’s foot in the door is on the FWD side GMs is just a little more on the RWD side. Change costs money. Powertrain direction will ultimately decide which platform from a manufacturing perspective will win out in GM. If RWD manufacture can receive a rationalisation they will most likely try to continue on in the short term. They are the manufacturer that seems most likely to keep the V8 in smaller capacity guise as nitch value. Not conclusively but most likely points to some sort of RWD architecture into the foreseeable future. I still think that is likely for Ford as well.

Conversing on what is likely and what will sell is two separate issues but critical to the overall decision that Ford must make.
There has been at least one attempt to come up with global Ford DNA, possibly driven by the fact that aeroplanes are essentially the same world over. Excellent from a manufacturing point of view not so in a consumer driven market. If the car is reduced to the emotional level of populated plane travel, Allen will be on the money.

The fact remains that a world class product in FG has held and slightly increased market share where others are in terminal decline. A cost effective bottom line is probably on the cards for FG but volume won’t be justifiably sustainable moving forward.

Ford have to do the research which is what they are doing. These conversations will be part of that research. Belittling expressions on either side won’t do anyone any service.
History and numbers pretty much conclusively point to Fords continued struggle in this environment and country. There is a core brand issue that surpasses simple product critique. Direction is possibly already irrelevant for most.

My choice and my right to express that, despite how unbelievable it might appear to others, is pretty much a given while I still have the ability to earn a wage.

There is no wrong to consumer driven choice. Companies live or die by getting it right. Unfortunately educating while traditional choice and values is still in play is likely a doomed business case from the beginning. The bottom line will be FIoFO. It will be, as it always has been, the consumer’s choice. Manufacturers will offer what they can afford to and consumer will be afforded the luxury of buying the best of those offerings that suit their requirements. Arguing the correctness of those assumptions while completing ignoring the present and past is an interesting strategy to adopt and one not likely to be completely accepted as a business case moving Ford. (and that was intentional as well)

[Fordman1]

Great post HSE2. Great post !

Some more bullet points:

FoA has recently been the Falcon Motor Company.

It had the chance to be more with the Territory but has let that slowly die with no upgrades and alternative powertrains.

Ford has a brand image problem in this country that has / will be VERY hard to change.

The market does not want cars that aren't COOL to buy.

MAZDAs look good, and are cool as far as the buyer is concerned.

V8's & "Super cars" mean NOTHING to the majority of new car buyer these days.

Aftermarket service is EVERYTHING !!!!!!

Focus is not selling. Why ? Brand.

If Ford want to launch a locally produced "New generation Focus" to survive it, MUST IMPROVE THE BRAND !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I hope Burela covers and addresses these issues.

[HSE2]

4Vman is correct when he says it’s a hugely complex situation and I don't think anyone talking about this is underestimating the significance of the situation or its importance to the core survival of the brand. I remain unconvinced there is an easy replacement option for Falcon in any form.

Some of the replies in this and other threads exhibit youthful enthusiasm and exuberance. It jumps up off these pages as shining light in a sea of depression. But in doing so some of them cross the line and start to get into a category that nearly implies consumers should adopt a brand loyalty mindset no matter what. Factual age aside the sentiment is certainly there and it just doesn’t give enough consideration to the overall history of the situation and indeed the reality of the situation as it stands today with similar existing Ford global products.

I have several issues with that thinking. Foremost I have never been a blind supporter. I consider myself loyal but not at all costs. I tend to buy Ford when I consider they have done a good job.

I would buy a new FG tomorrow if my BF sold. I took a walk around my local dealership on my way to work yesterday and nearly shed a tear at the sight of a FG G6ET with the price that was being asked of it. F6X discounted to the tune of 25 k

I can’t help but wonder how the public announcement regarding the engine line replacement has impacted on current sales. The market is in the toilet, there is new engines on their way, and its only two years away. I just wonder at the impact of trying to sell a new but at the same time an acknowledged discontinued line.

It might not be significant but I suspect its playing on people’s minds too.

There is no point me pretending that I will accept a FWD large car platform from Ford. I won’t, never will, unless there is no consumer choice in the matter. The likelihood or the reality of such a development won’t change my buying preference especially out of some misguided sense of loyalty.
Ford has never stepped in on trade negotiations to help me out and I wouldn’t expect them too and conversely I wouldn’t expect to be asked to consume a product that I wasn’t happy with.
There is no evidence that people will automatically jump out of Falcon into other Ford products.
Ford IMO have never really understood why they succeed and why they fail. If you get the chance to talk to anyone high up in Ford whose job it is to understand these reasons, you will most likely be shocked at what they have to say.
Martin has at least indicated he needs to understand these issues and that is a solid start.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Martin has at least indicated he needs to understand these issues and that is a solid start.

Marin ??

[HSE2]

Ah yes sorry

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Ah yes sorry

Mate you're on the right track !!

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Well seeing as the conversation is on this site and we have just ended a poll that said 91% wouldn’t purchase a FWD Falcon what sort of YOUTHFULL bliss concluded it still wouldn’t be cause for conversation.

When your point of view is very much a minority view amongst the audience in question what sort of YOUTHFULL BLISS would conclude that the correct terminology would be "crap" Clearly the issue being spoken of are of significance to the people speaking.

My comment was in regards to the people who still believe a few thousand tradies and those rich enough to afford an FPV will somehow consider in the upcoming decisions Ford make.
IMO they wont care for 250kw FWD vehicles and so talk of race car handling is irrelevant really.
Any true Ford follower would know too well the number of times public opinion has mattered to Ford has been few and far between and as a result 10-15% of market share wont count.

You'll have to excuse my lack of belief that they'll get it right, something about a path well worn.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

My comment was in regards to the people who still believe a few thousand tradies and those rich enough to afford an FPV will somehow consider in the upcoming decisions Ford make.
IMO they wont care for 250kw FWD vehicles and so talk of race car handling is irrelevant really.
Any true Ford follower would know too well the number of times public opinion has mattered to Ford has been few and far between and as a result 10-15% of market share wont count.

You'll have to excuse my lack of belief that they'll get it right, something about a path well worn.

No on these points you are very well understood and for mine very accurate.

[GK]

I guess if Ford did drop the RWD, then I'd buy one of the last models and keep it for ages.

For goodness sake, there's so many X-series cars still being cared for and driven, why couldn't people care for an A or B or F series car for that long?

And for what it's worth, it ain't over until it's over!

Just my 2 cents.

GK