coil pack

[woftam9000]

Hi all,

I have a 99 xr6 just wondering if the coil pack dies, do all 6 not fire or could it be selective and just pick 1 cylinder?

All help is appreciated.

Cheers

[FGII-XR6]

they can die on 2 cylinders as the pack is 3 coils that fire 2 cylinders each

[woftam9000]

Thanks mate,

so if just the 1 is gone best bet that it's the lead or plug?

[FGII-XR6]

i'd say so

[woftam9000]

need to go shopping tomorrow

thanks.

[sly]

That begs the question... do you have to replace the whole assembly if a coil dies, or can you just replace the one coil?

Also are there any aftermarket coils available for the AU that offer higher power or Thick Film technology? I've heard of a TFI coil pack for the EF, will this fit an AU1?

[FGII-XR6]

ef & S1 are the same S2/3 are different, there are aftermarket ones but only standard spec. although there are 3 coils they are epoxy sealed so must be replaced as a unit bummer eh

[sly]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

ef & S1 are the same S2/3 are different, there are aftermarket ones but only standard spec.

So in theory one of these http://www.norcom.net.au/~bpt/Ford%2...Components.htm (scroll down to "Ford Thick Film Ignition Modules") should work on a S1 then if it suits an EF?

[FGII-XR6]

if you mean this Description

Falcon T.F.I. EA to EL 3.9L, 4.0L, 5.0L $215.00
they are for a distributor . although it says EA to EL the EF is the odd man out as it is the only one with a coil pac and it will not work with the EF

[sly]

OK so is the AU coil pack a million miles from the Commy V6 pack? From pix I've seen of the 3.8 they seem to have 3 2-terminal coils mounted at the front of the engine. MSD make a 40kV 2-terminal coil (P/N 8224) as a direct replacement for the GM unit.

Would be interesting to see how hard it is to wire 3 of these up on an AU...

[FGII-XR6]

that may be a possibility just not sure how sensitive the ECU is to impedeande changes but you never know if you don't try i guess

[atec77]

Originally Posted by woftam9000

Hi all,

I have a 99 xr6 just wondering if the coil pack dies, do all 6 not fire or could it be selective and just pick 1 cylinder?

All help is appreciated.

Cheers

Commodore disease , will drop 2 pots and run very badly normally

[au2sw]

not necessarely, i have had two coils die on me in a matter of weeks, the first one only droped one cylinder, the 2nd one did drop 2. as im running LPG its more sensitive to spark, so i can pick this up easier. you wouldnt be able to set up a commodore coil pack set for the au...just not enough room....besides, why would you. coil packs dont need replacing all the time (if you do get one that fails fairly quickly, the retailer should replace it for you no worries) so its just not worth it.

[FGII-XR6]

Sly's idea was using a higher voltage performane coil to improve spark. Why I hear you say ??? if you run gas as he does ( ad I do too) spark is critical and improving spark will reduce backfire and improve performance and economy so even though I don't have the time and inclination to do it I can see his point

Originally Posted by au2sw

not necessarely, i have had two coils die on me in a matter of weeks, the first one only droped one cylinder, the 2nd one did drop 2. as im running LPG its more sensitive to spark, so i can pick this up easier. you wouldnt be able to set up a commodore coil pack set for the au...just not enough room....besides, why would you. coil packs dont need replacing all the time (if you do get one that fails fairly quickly, the retailer should replace it for you no worries) so its just not worth it.

[sly]

Originally Posted by au2sw

you wouldnt be able to set up a commodore coil pack set for the au...just not enough room....

I was thinking more of using the MSD 8224 2-terminal coils mounted individually in a more accessible place. I may soon have either a s/c head unit or battery where the airbox is now, so removing the airbox to gain easier access to the coil pack will no longer be an option for me. The higher energy spark will be doubly useful with LPG and boost.

[FGII-XR6]

come on you can just pull the blower off to get to the leads sorry had to say it . never thought of that aspect i might just have to extend my coil wiring to a better location before i put my blower on i'll do it from underneath when he has it on the hoist

[EvilChief]

Originally Posted by sly

OK so is the AU coil pack a million miles from the Commy V6 pack? From pix I've seen of the 3.8 they seem to have 3 2-terminal coils mounted at the front of the engine. MSD make a 40kV 2-terminal coil (P/N 8224) as a direct replacement for the GM unit.

Would be interesting to see how hard it is to wire 3 of these up on an AU...

yes they are a milion miles different

commodore uses a TFI module, which uses a cam/crank angle sensor input and generates a PNP signal for the ecu, which in return the sends a distributor advance type signal back to the tfi module for ignition advance.

the falcon gets direct input to the ecu from cam/crank angle sensor, which in turn then sends an ignition signal back (3 signals) to the coilpacks with the correct ignition advance.

Both systems share inbuild ignition modules however.

If you try to wire up aftermarket coils you woild have to use a trichannel ignition module, which in turn then gets wired to "dumb" ignition coils, such as the commodore MSD coilpacks.

Alternative are u use "smart" coilpacks, which have the ignition modules inbuild, such as the LS1 coilpacks, which you can pick up for $100 each. Those you would be able to wire direct into pairs (1&6, 2&5, 3&4).

The Ef & AU coilpacks have 4 wire inputs: 1x 12V ACC, 3x signal wires. These wires you would be able to wire directly to the LS1 coilpacks.

Cheers
Mic

Edit: commodore and falcon coilpacks operate at around 20000Volts, LS1 coilpack operate at around 40000 to 50000Volts. Little imporvement ;)

[sly]

Originally Posted by EvilChief

Edit: commodore and falcon coilpacks operate at around 20000Volts, LS1 coilpack operate at around 40000 to 50000Volts. Little imporvement ;)

That's a stock LS1 coilpack? Let alone an MSD unit which presumably improves on stock? I guess you just leave the 2 excess coils unwired & with boots on the terminals to protect them?

Hmmm... if wired up with this in mind then the 2 spare coils could be used as backups? Say if #1/6 coil failed it could be unplugged and #7/8 plugged in to replace it?

[EvilChief]

Originally Posted by sly

That's a stock LS1 coilpack? Let alone an MSD unit which presumably improves on stock? I guess you just leave the 2 excess coils unwired & with boots on the terminals to protect them?

Hmmm... if wired up with this in mind then the 2 spare coils could be used as backups? Say if #1/6 coil failed it could be unplugged and #7/8 plugged in to replace it?

LS1 coils do not come in pairs, they are individual units, so u can buy only 6 of them, if u need only 6. I use them on most of my turbo conversions, or dizzy to coilpack conversions. Great little units, havent had one fail or not do their task, and best of all inbuild igniters, which eliminates the need of ignition modules.

Stock one (as used by haltech)


MSD LS1 unit:


they normally sit on teh rocker covers just like this:


or on a bracket off the intake manifold like on the LS2

[sly]

Originally Posted by EvilChief

Alternative are u use "smart" coilpacks, which have the ignition modules inbuild, such as the LS1 coilpacks, which you can pick up for $100 each.

Do you mean $100 for a set of 8, or $100 for each coil? A quick search on ebay turns up a set of 8 MSD LS1 coils for $850 "the cheapest on ebay" and the Haltech units are $95 per coil.

I was hoping you meant $100 for a set of 8 from a wrecker... will have to make some phone calls. Interesting all the same, I'll run the info by the sparky I was going to get to move the coilpack. At least I know I have options, if the LS1 route is too pricy then I'll look into the triple-channel igniter with 8224's.

[FGII-XR6]

using 6 coils would not work the factory pack has a series coil split into 2 outputs if you get what i mean so the wiring & impedance etc would be totaly wrong

[EvilChief]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

using 6 coils would not work the factory pack has a series coil split into 2 outputs if you get what i mean so the wiring & impedance etc would be totaly wrong

LS1 coils are $95 ea, so yer a somplete set for plus minus $570, from the wreckers probably around $250 to $300 for a set of 6

AU3XR6: what?
injectors have a low and high impedance, meaning the resistance throught the injector varies dependant on injector.

The way coilpacks work is the same as the old coils work. a negative trigger signal collapses the magnetic field inside the coil, setting the stored positive energy free through the post. That signal is only a simple negative switch signal, amplified/switched through an ignition module (internal or external).

Now having explained that you can wire as many coilpacks (single or dual post) together into one "unit" and trigger them simultaniously (ie V12) as you like.

[FGII-XR6]

i was afraid my description was a bit ambigous the coil is a center tap to earth secondary with a single primary and unlike the injectors the coil feeds will not tollerate a variation in impedance AFAIK. to do this you would have 2 coil primaries in parallel reducing the primary inprdance by 1/2 i have a diagram somewhere explaining it better and if i can dig it up i will post it up

[EvilChief]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

i was afraid my description was a bit ambigous the coil is a center tap to earth secondary with a single primary and unlike the injectors the coil feeds will not tollerate a variation in impedance AFAIK. to do this you would have 2 coil primaries in parallel reducing the primary inprdance by 1/2 i have a diagram somewhere explaining it better and if i can dig it up i will post it up

please do so,every coil conversion i have done works just fine

in terms of latency or delay of the ignition point, teh difference is insignificant and will work never the less. as for ecu handling, is fine as well, as it uses a simple earthing signal

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by EvilChief

please do so,every coil conversion i have done works just fine

in terms of latency or delay of the ignition point, teh difference is insignificant and will work never the less. as for ecu handling, is fine as well, as it uses a simple earthing signal

if you have done this i stand corrected i was only working from a theoretical basis and I have seen things work before that shouldn't so go for it

[sly]

So if I go this way, once I've got a stronger spark, then what? Open the plug gaps out a bit? Increase the dwell if the edit can access the dwell parameters?

Edit: BTW a set of 8 coils from a VTII went for $159 on ebay today, pity I was only prepared to go to $107...

[EvilChief]

you dont increase the dwell angle, its a set angle dependant of engine
was important back in the days when points were used

the dwell angle is the amount of degrees between each ignition point
Ie: 4 cyl engine = 360deg / 4 = 90deg

you want to increase the advance, the amount of degree at which the spark plugs fires before the piston reaches TDC, which you can do with a flasher or interceptor

[sly]

So this claim on the BPT website is BS then?

Ford Thick Film Ignition Modules

The Dyna-Mod has more electronic dwell in it over a stock module to provide more coil saturation time. This extra dwell time allows the coil to produce a more intense spark. Improves throttle response and low-end power. Mounts in the original factory location without any modification and works on all 5.0L and 4.0L ignitions with EEC. Thick Film Ignition

Also I remember checking the dwell angle on points-equipped cars to make sure it was within spec, IIRC it could be adjusted if out of spec. It was a long time ago and there's been a lot of beer down the trough since then.

[sly]

Originally Posted by EvilChief

you dont increase the dwell angle, its a set angle dependant of engine
was important back in the days when points were used

the dwell angle is the amount of degrees between each ignition point
Ie: 4 cyl engine = 360deg / 4 = 90deg

Not so. Info from http://www.picotech.com/auto/tutoria...n-primary.html

Dwell is measured as an angle: with contact ignition, the points gap determines the dwell angle. The definition of contact ignition dwell is: ‘the number of degrees of distributor rotation with the contacts in the closed position’. As an example, a 4 cylinder engine will have a dwell of approximately 45 degrees, which is 50% of one cylinders complete primary cycle.

One of the many compromises with contact ignition is the fact that the coils saturation time will reduce with increasing engine speed.

The dwell period on an engine with electronic ignition is controlled by the current limiting circuit within the amplifier or Electronic Control Module (ECM). The dwell on a variable dwell or constant energy system will be seen to expand as the engine speed increases, compensating for the shorter time period.

The term ‘constant energy’ refers to the available voltage produced by the coil. This, regardless of engine speed, will remain constant as opposed to contact ignition where an increase in engine speed means the contacts are closed for a shorter time period. The coils saturation time can be seen in Fig 1.4, where the time available to saturate the coil is a constant 3.0 milliseconds regardless of the engine speed. The saturation time is considerably lower than that of a contact system due to the coils supply voltage being approximately double that of a ballasted contact system and the coils primary resistance approximately halved. This will result in a far higher current, saturating the coil with amperage that would not be possible on a contact system.

In a nutshell, dwell is the time or rotational angle during which a coil builds charge. Dwell can be increased or decreased, but doing so has the opposite effect on spark duration (as spark duration is the complement of dwell).

[sleeper]

Hey guys i noticed in the current american engine masters mag that ACCEL have 6 cyl coil packs that look identical to au2/3 packs except ACCEL are HI/PERF , they have two types , one with a horiz input plug , and one with a vertical input plug , all the spark plug terminals are as au2/3 , but cant get any info if the will work ??? ACCEL AMERICA no nothing of our great inline 6, i will keep trying to get info. :evil3: