How are demerit points fair?

01-08-2005, 01:00 PM

They always say that they have demerit points because wealthy people can afford to keep paying the fines. The demerit points affect less wealthy people alot more because of the jobs they have, people with high paying jobs generally arnt expected to drive around all day for work. With the road laws these days pretty much everyone breaks several rules everytime they drive, the more you drive the more chance you will get fined for one of the small mistakes everyone makes when they drive in australia. How is it at all fair for a tradesmen who has to drive 50-100k a year who has to drive around different roads everyday to have the same amount of points as a wealthy exec who has a 15km round trip to work eachday and gets to take the same route and never worry about crazy speedlimit placement that changes 50 times in the same road?

At my work they have had to start employing people to drive vans + tradesmen around after p plater employees lose their license for 2 x 11km speeding fines in a year thanks to useless placement of speedlimit signs or cameras on hills, you can't afford to fire them because of the money invested in training them and theres not even people around to take their jobs if you could afford to retrain them.

Racecraft · 01-08-2005, 01:05 PM

In Qld even though you have to pass a specific test and get issued a seperate license for your Hire Drivers Authority (not just a extra class added to your normal one) it comes with no points..

Any cab driver or chaffuer needs one by law to work within that industry and yet even though your workplace is the road you get the same points as a Sunday driver that catches the bus all week...

01-08-2005, 01:11 PM

Hubby and I were talking about this the other day, I wonder how many people are driving around with no license, I think a few.
It's ridiculous.

Tote · 01-08-2005, 01:19 PM

NSW state transit bus drivers used to (and maybe still do) get 4 extra points on their licence. I would say that that is an acknowledment of your statement.
Regards,
Tote

NAK302 · 01-08-2005, 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They always say that they have demerit points because wealthy people can afford to keep paying the fines. The demerit points affect less wealthy people alot more because of the jobs they have, people with high paying jobs generally arnt expected to drive around all day for work. With the road laws these days pretty much everyone breaks several rules everytime they drive, the more you drive the more chance you will get fined for one of the small mistakes everyone makes when they drive in australia. How is it at all fair for a tradesmen who has to drive 50-100k a year who has to drive around different roads everyday to have the same amount of points as a wealthy exec who has a 15km round trip to work eachday and gets to take the same route and never worry about crazy speedlimit placement that changes 50 times in the same road?

At my work they have had to start employing people to drive vans + tradesmen around after p plater employees lose their license for 2 x 11km speeding fines in a year thanks to useless placement of speedlimit signs or cameras on hills, you can't afford to fire them because of the money invested in training them and theres not even people around to take their jobs if you could afford to retrain them.

so, here's what happens.
the first thing the copper asks is "i'd like to see last years tax return"
then he says "oh, i see you earn more then the average person"
he then tells you "i'm going to have to charge you 3 times more than that tradesman over there because you earn more than him and he has 2.3 kids to feed and he does 850,000 kms/year than you.....................................pft,

: yeah right

Tote · 01-08-2005, 01:28 PM

But what about a system that caters for people who drive more Km than others regardless of income. My wife has never been booked for anything and only been breath tested once in 11 years of driving. She drives about 10,000 Km a year, I drive at least 60,000 and used to do many more than that in years gone by. I would say that my chances of losing points is higher than hers given the same level of skill.
Just like anything to do with road safety and the road toll anything innovative is too hard when it is easier to "get tough on hoons"
Regards,
Tote

01-08-2005, 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak351

so, here's what happens.
the first thing the copper asks is "i'd like to see last years tax return"
then he says "oh, i see you earn more then the average person"
he then tells you "i'm going to have to charge you 3 times more than that tradesman over there because you earn more than him and he has 2.3 kids to feed and he does 850,000 kms/year than you.....................................pft,

: yeah right

It has nothing to do with fines. The problem is pretty much everyone on average will get a fine every so many kilometres traveled and get demerit points. It has gotten to the stage where because of ridiculous road laws people who drive high KMs for work are struggling to keep their license which they need for work.

NAK302 · 01-08-2005, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tote

But what about a system that caters for people who drive more Km than others regardless of income. My wife has never been booked for anything and only been breath tested once in 11 years of driving. She drives about 10,000 Km a year, I drive at least 60,000 and used to do many more than that in years gone by. I would say that my chances of losing points is higher than hers given the same level of skill.
Just like anything to do with road safety and the road toll anything innovative is too hard when it is easier to "get tough on hoons"
Regards,
Tote

but the onus is still on the person operating the vehicle to be within the law at all times. therefore your chances of being booked regardless of kilometers travelled are exacly the same if you stay within the law. that is none.

MITCHAY · 01-08-2005, 01:41 PM

Just because some people earn more doesnt mean they should get fined any more than the average person. That would be descrimination. Yes it might not hurt the wallet that much but you cant blame them for getting into a good job that pays well.

What i reckon is BS is in ACT we have the P off program which gives you an extra 4 points if you do a small weekend course (which a baby could do) and for a charge of $69.

I dont know anyone who has failed it so i think its just an excuse for revenue raising where as a couple of years ago it was free for 8 points on your Ps. If charging someone $69 to a **** easy course for a 4 extra points isnt revenue raising i dont know what is.

NAK302 · 01-08-2005, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardmech

It has nothing to do with fines. The problem is pretty much everyone on average will get a fine every so many kilometres traveled and get demerit points. It has gotten to the stage where because of ridiculous road laws people who drive high KMs for work are struggling to keep their license which they need for work.

your original post was income based ie: "wealthy"
i should have put "charged 3 times more points" in my reply.

bindi · 01-08-2005, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizardmech

It has nothing to do with fines. The problem is pretty much everyone on average will get a fine every so many kilometres traveled and get demerit points. It has gotten to the stage where because of ridiculous road laws people who drive high KMs for work are struggling to keep their license which they need for work.

I understand what you are saying. Yes, everyone breaks laws that sometimes they are not even aware of (rules keep changing but the RTA do not issue every licence holder with a letter saying "oh by the way this rule is changing" or "this is a new rule" etc. They just expect us to know?)

And there are some ppl who aren't connected to the net (yes bizzare but true) so when the new demerit points system came into place at the beginning of last month I downloaded and printed the list for my father so that he knew what was what with the new points etc.

I also, out of interest, printed off the lists of demerit points that were on the website. I didn't realise some of the offences were so harshly penalised, nor did I realise that some were actually offences! :(

Now that I know I am even more aware but sometimes everyone breaks some law without even realising it (I didn't know that driving slightly over the left hand unbroken line of a road is an offence, for eg).

Des · 01-08-2005, 01:55 PM

Demerit points must be the same for everyone. What you probably want is something like in one of the Scandinavian countries (Finland I think). Over there if you go to court your fines are awarded (love that makes it sound like you've won) in relation to your annual salary. Then 2 people can receive different fines for the exact same offence if their salaries are different. I think they hold the world record for the highest fine to a road user.
I've flogged myself to finally earn some decent money so of course I don't like this idea....

SunDrifter · 01-08-2005, 01:58 PM

How are demerits points fair you ask?

Because its a one rule suits all situation! Its stupidity to suggest that the "wealthy" should be demerited more then anybody else.

I do around a minimal 12,000klm a year, and i earn a resonable amount per year, hence I pay more in tax already, so why should i be demerited more?

If your on the road more often, i put it to you that you should be more guarded in your driving style. If you've done something wrong, then deal with it, you wont see me crying in my beer if i get a speeding fine, but then i've only ever had one. Theres a lesson in that.... and it's; DONT SPEED!

NAK302 · 01-08-2005, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Des

I've flogged myself to finally earn some decent money so of course I don't like this idea....

unfortunetly this country suffers tall poppy syndrome. become successful or "wealthy" and whammo pay,pay,pay so people with little or no aspirations can live a better life.

01-08-2005, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak351

your original post was income based ie: "wealthy"
i should have put "charged 3 times more points" in my reply.

Theres no reason to introduce harsher penalties to wealthy people who earn more, they just need to realize if they want to use road safety as a revenue raising scheme they are going to have to make sure they it doesn't ruin peoples lives and cripple industries. They should just change it to 12 points every 3 years or 40 000km.

MITCHAY · 01-08-2005, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak351

unfortunetly this country suffers tall poppy syndrome. become successful or "wealthy" and whammo pay,pay,pay so people with little or no aspirations can live a better life.

Lol thats gold

NAK302 · 01-08-2005, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

How are demerits points fair you ask?

Because its a one rule suits all situation! Its stupidity to suggest that the "wealthy" should be demerited more then anybody else.

I do around a minimal 12,000klm a year, and i earn a resonable amount per year, hence I pay more in tax already, so why should i be demerited more?

If your on the road more often, i put it to you that you should be more guarded in your driving style. If you've done something wrong, then deal with it, you wont see me crying in my beer if i get a speeding fine, but then i've only ever had one. Theres a lesson in that.... and it's; DONT SPEED!

woohoo............someone with sense

01-08-2005, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SunDrifter

How are demerits points fair you ask?

Because its a one rule suits all situation! Its stupidity to suggest that the "wealthy" should be demerited more then anybody else.

I do around a minimal 12,000klm a year, and i earn a resonable amount per year, hence I pay more in tax already, so why should i be demerited more?

If your on the road more often, i put it to you that you should be more guarded in your driving style. If you've done something wrong, then deal with it, you wont see me crying in my beer if i get a speeding fine, but then i've only ever had one. Theres a lesson in that.... and it's; DONT SPEED!

Theres no reason why you should be demerited more, they have to fix it so people who depend on driving long distances for have a chance. I bet you violate the speed limit by 2% everytime you drive which is enough to get fined here in vic.

deesun · 01-08-2005, 02:25 PM

And whos to say that the person who is earning a lot isnt driving very far? What do you base that on? Are you saying that every person on a low income drives a long way every day to get to and from work? I don't think so.
When you get a licence there is a set of rules by which you need to abide,it is your choice how far you drive, and how often you stay within the law.

NC 5ltr · 01-08-2005, 02:33 PM

i think they need to adopt the system they use in hungry where the fine is proportional to your income to make it fair.

so instead of it being a set fine it becomes a percentage of what you earn.

like if someone earns $50000 a year and gets caught speeding he pays a %5 income fine which is $2500 or if a person with a $1000000 income gets caught for the same infringment he gets a $50000 fine.

it is pretty fare and it will make everyone more responsable on the road as it will hurt everyone in the hip pocket no matter what the income may be.

cheers

MITCHAY · 01-08-2005, 02:42 PM

I reckon its the same with tax. No person should be paying anythn on the basis of their income. It should be the same for everyone. Its discrimantory to base something on their income. Why should someone have to pay more because they earn more?

Can everyone honestly say that everyone whos on a low income doesnt speed cause they cant afford it? I dont think so. How many wealthy people pay an obscene amount of tax so some low income earner can benefit from centrelink. Its punishin someone because they have done well in life and it isnt fair.

01-08-2005, 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deesun

And whos to say that the person who is earning a lot isnt driving very far? What do you base that on? Are you saying that every person on a low income drives a long way every day to get to and from work? I don't think so.

No one is... I am only using the example of a wealthy person because the media and government generaly insists demerit points exist to make everyone "equal" when it comes to road laws. Yet it clearly fails to do this and ends up punishing people whos job involves alot of driving, on average most multi millionairs and CEOs of public companies wont be driving around nearly as much for work as tradesmen and other industries that involve driving to different sites to work on. Theres nothing wrong with anyone having plenty of money or a job that they don't have to travel for to get to. The problem is a bunch of scum bag wannabe commie polititions and journos that make ridiculous socialistic laws that don't work and then end up punishing the people they claim they help in the first place. Then they never bother to fix or remove all the stupid crap they have added.

MITCHAY · 01-08-2005, 02:51 PM

I think demerit points deter speeding more than fines. Fines can be paid. Points you cant buy. I think we need a poll. Which deters you more from speeding. Points or Fines. I can tell you now id rather get harsher fines cause they can be paid and i only earn $400 a week. And i think there should be a national scheme for demerit points. Ie <=15kms means 1 point in ACT and 3 points in NSW. Whats the difference between speedin in NSW and ACT? Speedin is speedin to me.

01-08-2005, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC 5ltr

i think they need to adopt the system they use in hungry where the fine is proportional to your income to make it fair.

so instead of it being a set fine it becomes a percentage of what you earn.

like if someone earns $50000 a year and gets caught speeding he pays a %5 income fine which is $2500 or if a person with a $1000000 income gets caught for the same infringment he gets a $50000 fine.

it is pretty fare and it will make everyone more responsable on the road as it will hurt everyone in the hip pocket no matter what the income may be.

cheers

Or even better we can just turn Australia into another retarded communist country that fails at everything. People need to take alot of the road "safety" initiatives that come out of small euro countries with a grain of salt, many of them just have car hating governments that make these kind of laws to force people away from cars.

Heeno · 01-08-2005, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

How many wealthy people pay an obscene amount of tax so some low income earner can benefit from centrelink. Its punishin someone because they have done well in life and it isnt fair.

bloody oath, those lazy #%$& that just smoked pot in school and couldn't give a stuff benefit from the hard working joe, hobo's thats all they are

:

NAK302 · 01-08-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NC 5ltr

i think they need to adopt the system they use in hungry where the fine is proportional to your income to make it fair.

so instead of it being a set fine it becomes a percentage of what you earn.

like if someone earns $50000 a year and gets caught speeding he pays a %5 income fine which is $2500 or if a person with a $1000000 income gets caught for the same infringment he gets a $50000 fine.

it is pretty fare and it will make everyone more responsable on the road as it will hurt everyone in the hip pocket no matter what the income may be.

cheers

that is the most stupid thing i've read in a very long time.

01-08-2005, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I think demerit points deter speeding more than fines. Fines can be paid. Points you cant buy. I think we need a poll. Which deters you more from speeding. Points or Fines. I can tell you now id rather get harsher fines cause they can be paid and i only earn $400 a week. And i think there should be a national scheme for demerit points. Ie <=15kms means 1 point in ACT and 3 points in NSW. Whats the difference between speedin in NSW and ACT? Speedin is speedin to me.

Obviously demerit points deter speeding more. The problem is in states like victoria avoiding a speeding fine is not always as easy as not speeding on purpose.

NC 5ltr · 01-08-2005, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nak351

that is the most stupid thing i've read in a very long time.

why is that?

MITCHAY · 01-08-2005, 03:19 PM

I reckon another reason why so many people are speedin is because the speed limits are so slow than what they need to be. I mean come on as if its not just an excuse to fine people. Highways should be 110-130km/h i reckon. A lot of 80km/h roads i go on could easily be 100km/h. Its just plain and simple revenue raising.

NC 5ltr · 01-08-2005, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I reckon another reason why so many people are speedin is because the speed limits are so slow than what they need to be. I mean come on as if its not just an excuse to fine people. Highways should be 110-130km/h i reckon. A lot of 80km/h roads i go on could easily be 100km/h. Its just plain and simple revenue raising.

i agree about the highways ,they should be around 130-140 ,but saying that people would still speed no matter what the limit was.