Motor Sept 2005 - BFYB - Another FPV failure!

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They already have one, its in the ford GT supercar. Its not more work than building the 5.6L T3s.

Hence the comment about the different oiling system... the GT uses a drysump system and a different mounting arrangement.

[parawolf]

*COUGH*
5.0L Cammer
*COUGH*

About the only issue is emissions compliance....

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by parawolf

*COUGH*
5.0L Cammer
*COUGH*

About the only issue is emissions compliance....

Of course, because, you know, people *will* buy a "hot version" of a car thats got a smaller engine than the cooking versions, and is a litre down on its competition..... [/SARCASM]

[JPFS1]

don't expect anything major until the all new falcon.

I don't know what engines have been chosen for the all new falcon, could be what we have now with S/C, could be highly developed with alloy blocks and VCT enabled, who knows... but i know the power numbers quoted have had jaws hitting the ground and some mighty raised brows... hopefully they stick to it.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Of course, because, you know, people *will* buy a "hot version" of a car thats got a smaller engine than the cooking versions, and is a litre down on its competition..... [/SARCASM]

But see, this engine produces 450bhp out of the box. It is lighter than the 5.4L. And going into the "FPV F8 Sprint Concept" it would be a focused car just to show that FPV CAN build a BFYB and PCOTY winner by only making 100 units a year and at $70k a year using off the shelf products.

This would be a focused car, that would only appeal to certain people. Check out the thread that is titled
BA GT-HO and read about my concept which includes specification, performance and warranty and usage. It would work. It doesn't need to be overally profitable like a GT, but it needs to stop the idea that FPV = FCV.

Using off the shelf components, technology sharing and making it work should be able to be done in about 18 months by a skunkworks team.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by parawolf

But see, this engine produces 450bhp out of the box. It is lighter than the 5.4L. And going into the "FPV F8 Sprint Concept" it would be a focused car just to show that FPV CAN build a BFYB and PCOTY winner by only making 100 units a year and at $70k a year using off the shelf products.

This would be a focused car, that would only appeal to certain people. Check out the thread that is titled
BA GT-HO and read about my concept which includes specification, performance and warranty and usage. It would work. It doesn't need to be overally profitable like a GT, but it needs to stop the idea that FPV = FCV.

Using off the shelf components, technology sharing and making it work should be able to be done in about 18 months by a skunkworks team.

Less cubes means its got to rev more and work harder which usually meaning its going to be a B!tch in a street car.
Is the motor Euro 3 compliant?
Is the power output user friendly?
Who would be interested in 100 examples anyway?
Say it costs 10 million dollars (conservatively) to do all the market research and all the R+D involved in submitting cars for testing and doing all the research necessary including all the re testing of suspension settings that happens when you unbalance the car with weight reduction etc.
If you limited it to 100 cars that would add $100,000 to the selling price of the vehicle BEFORE you add all the extra costs of the special low volume components!! $170K++ purchase price!
HSV have already done the math: $250K+ was their estimate for the HRT427..
FORD do not make low volume specials!! get used to it! they are ecconomically a disaster.

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by parawolf

*COUGH*
5.0L Cammer
*COUGH*

About the only issue is emissions compliance....

You may need a some cough medicene, your cough sounds like its getting worse... :evil_laug

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Less cubes means its got to rev more and work harder which usually meaning its going to be a B!tch in a street car.
Is the motor Euro 3 compliant?
Is the power output user friendly?
Who would be interested in 100 examples anyway?
Say it costs 10 million dollars (conservatively) to do all the market research and all the R+D involved in submitting cars for testing and doing all the research necessary including all the re testing of suspension settings that happens when you unbalance the car with weight reduction etc.
If you limited it to 100 cars that would add $100,000 to the selling price of the vehicle BEFORE you add all the extra costs of the special low volume components!! $170K++ purchase price!
HSV have already done the math: $250K+ was their estimate for the HRT427..
FORD do not make low volume specials!! get used to it! they are ecconomically a disaster.

Yeah - I want to dream though.

How good was the new and reaction to the HRT427 anyway? and that was far more exotic than a sprint concept....

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

You may need a some cough medicene, your cough sounds like its getting worse... :evil_laug

The cough is getting worse, but what i'm coming up with is gold :evil_laug

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by parawolf

But see, this engine produces 450bhp out of the box. It is lighter than the 5.4L. And going into the "FPV F8 Sprint Concept" it would be a focused car just to show that FPV CAN build a BFYB and PCOTY winner by only making 100 units a year and at $70k a year using off the shelf products.

This would be a focused car, that would only appeal to certain people. Check out the thread that is titled
BA GT-HO and read about my concept which includes specification, performance and warranty and usage. It would work. It doesn't need to be overally profitable like a GT, but it needs to stop the idea that FPV = FCV.

Using off the shelf components, technology sharing and making it work should be able to be done in about 18 months by a skunkworks team.

I saw that post. It won't work. Seen the price tag on a Cammer? $15,000USD, plus duties. So based on a 514 FRPP Crate motor costing $12,500AUD starting at $7,995USD, the Cammer will be $23,400AUD.
( http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=6787 and http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=6188 )

Sure, they could possibly do it if:
a) It wasn't complianced
b) *No* warranty offered (I believe there is legislation requiring warrantys on new cars)
c) It wasn't significantly lighter than a base falcon
d) It used the Boss290 as a starting point

There is no way in hell they could do it complianced and waranteed and lighter for $70,000, especially if it contained the following

Originally Posted by parawolf

Supercharged, V8 (hence F8) with club car characteristics, perhaps some sparco seats, minimal floor carpet (reduce the carpet weight at least), linear steering rack, Pirelli P Zero Corsa Club tyres, quick shifter, 18" OZ Racing Alloys, 6 Piston AP Racing on fronts with ~360mm rotors and 4 piston rears with ~350mm rotors and adjustable suspension.

Sure, if you wanted to sell an uber stripper using a non sound proofed shell, 2 racing seats, a bolt in cage and all the drivetrain bits of a normal GTP, you could possibly do it for $70k registered and waranteed.... but have you ever been in a completely stripped car on the road?
A Cammer would still be lacking in torque for a big heavy car....
"With proper headers (not included) and low restriction air intake and vehicle exhaust systems, the engine will exceed 400 Bhp and have a very broad torque curve, peaking over 365 ft./lbs." (http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=6787)
For you metrics, thats 300kW/495Nm.... and trust me, to be screwing that out of a complianced 5.0 its gunna be revving hard and have *no* bottom end.
Cammer isn't that light either, 669lb versus 660lb for a Lincon Navigator 5.4 engine, based on Ford Racing and Performance Parts own catalog.
http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts...tKeyField=6889

Other thing to remember is the drivetrain failures people are suffering in the existing GT/GTPs, so something stronger would need to be engineered for such a car if it were intended to see competition use. This further removes the car from something that can roll down the standard production lines, making it an even more expensive proposition.

[Gammaboy]

Oh, forgot to mention, the 514 Big Block puts out 625 HP @ 6250 RPM and 600 ft./lbs. of torque @ 4800 RPM (466kW, 813Nm), costs half the tag on a Cammer, and is physically *SMALLER* and *LIGHTER* than the cammer (543lb!)

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by parawolf

Yeah - I want to dream though.

How good was the new and reaction to the HRT427 anyway? and that was far more exotic than a sprint concept....

Dreaming is good! Nothing wrong with dreaming and wishful thinking!

The HRT427 idea created hysteria! unfortunatly those making all the noise had no intention of buying one, and those that could afford it weren't interested!!

Maybe im taking these posts too seriously or maybe ive worked in manufacturing too long and seen how complicated and expensive short run manufacturing is when you're set-up for mass production to meet strict standards! :

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Dreaming is good! Nothing wrong with dreaming and wishful thinking!

Maybe im taking these posts too seriously or maybe ive worked in manufacturing too long and seen how complicated and expensive short run manufacturing is! :

possibly :

*sigh* perhaps Ford need to redesign modular so they just aren't so friggen huge :

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by parawolf

possibly :

*sigh* perhaps Ford need to redesign modular so they just aren't so friggen huge :

4 words:
Emissions Compliant Big Block

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

4 words:
Emissions Compliant Big Block

I just remembered the Saleen S7 uses an injected, emissions compliant all alloy 427 side oiler

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by Gammaboy

Oh, forgot to mention, the 514 Big Block puts out 625 HP @ 6250 RPM and 600 ft./lbs. of torque @ 4800 RPM (466kW, 813Nm), costs half the tag on a Cammer, and is physically *SMALLER* and *LIGHTER* than the cammer (543lb!)

Sounds impressive, where do I place my order?

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by Pilch

Sounds impressive, where do I place my order?

I Believe they can be ordered through any Ford spare parts counter that deals with Ford Racing Parts.... theres apparently one in a dealership here in Brizzy still in its crate. $12,500 AUD pricetag. Unfortunately the 514 crate motor is non emissions compliant. :(

Still, for that pre ADR27 car.......

Who's brave enough to put one in a BA and get it complied?

[mickey t]

Originally Posted by back2thefutura

(yawn). Sales stats tell the real story, not something by Motor. Cant stand those guys.

don't mind if you can't stand us. it's your money, but sales don't tell the real story. if they did, you could assume McDonalds made the best hamburgers in the world, coke the best drink and budweiser the best beer. and kylie (god love her) the best music.

it isn't so.

standing start acceleration means a hell of a lot less to us than it seems to mean to most readers, and we don't tend to use it as a basis on which to judge cars.

mid-corner speed is another matter. it goes to the heart of the depth of a car's engineering. mid-corner speed = roadholding. if your car doesn't have one, it doesn't have the other. handling and roadholding are different things.

we measure this on a track because a) we were doing the same job anyway and, b) it's safer there.

it's not only a measure of a car's grip, it's also a measure of a car's ability to safetly get you out of a problem on the road, its ability to miss things and not crash.

I don't think comparing hamburgers and beer to a car is a valid comparison lol. With cars like FPV's and HSV's most buyers tend to be private or small business. So it's a user chooser system.
Whereas with fleets it's not the case. So I think the fact that FPV is performing well against HSV is proof of which is the better overall car.

[Gammaboy]

Originally Posted by mickey t

mid-corner speed is another matter. it goes to the heart of the depth of a car's engineering. mid-corner speed = roadholding. if your car doesn't have one, it doesn't have the other. handling and roadholding are different things.

The rubber selected by the manufacturer has a massive effect on a cars cornerspeed.... ie, take 2 identical cars... fit one with a set of Yokohama A 032Rs, and one with a set of crook old Steelcats.... I can tell you which one is going to have a more than 10km/h higher cornerspeed.... those cornerspeed numbers would all have some level of real meaning if all the cars in the test were running the same tyres (obviously the sizes would differ...but same brand/model/compund).

[parawolf]

Mickey t, good of you to join us - and I must admit, I agree with your comments about mid corner speed. However one thing, why am I so bored with local sports sedans these days? I mean there is only so much glammed up material I can read about a car X that outhandles or more generically outperforms car Y.

I mean our brutish local sedan heros are nice, and well priced - but i'm after something these days thats harder edged, more focused. I'm kinda sick of these overweight big sedans with sheer displacement at the front end. Where do I get something more "fun" and perhaps less "practical"?

Perhaps you might see what I mean as you get to drive some fast cars and getting into the local product is just not as exciting. Where do I go to get something truly exciting but isn't going to write me off in an accident (Lotus Elise) or Financially (Porsche 911 anything). Where is something that comes out of a factory line up like a Toyota which makes it well priced (and made!) but also with a bit of squirt under the right foot (that isn't a bum dragger - because i'm biased like that).

Actually there is an idea... where is the replacement for the Supra? 3L 6 cylinder Turbo manual driving the rear.

[bazzalong]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

Basically the point I was making, and that Motor were focussing on, was that because of the outright low corner speeds (that's outright, not relative!) the whole lap times were rubbish. That should be a MAJOR concern for a manufacturer who :
1) has "PERFORMANCE" in their name!!!
2) markets themselves as the pinnacle of the manufacturers products, both in terms of prestige and performance
3) is competing with other vehicles in the same price range that substantially flog it for performance
4) also markets themselves with very explicit links to V8 Supercars, and therefore performance on a racetrack

The excuses have been the same for too long, and the dead horse has never been flogged so badly. Why should there be excuses? Why hasn't FPV, over the course of it's conception and implementation, managed to address the performance disparity to all the competition? What does Prodrive think of the perpetual performance handicap? Is it simply an accounting issue, in that they simply can't afford to develop something that delivers on ALL FRONTS of performance? Are they deliberately making slower cars so as not to rile the Harold Scrubys of this world? If other manufacturers can come up with a formula that provides a great drive on the road AND track, why can't FPV? So many unanswered questions and as always, the excuses keep flowing from HQ and from the blind fans.

Now, unless either the definition of performance is different at FPV, or they measure it on a scale that doesn't include it's direct competition (based on segment or indeed price), then they have a few serious questions to answer about their whole approach to making cars. I think it is the latter, personally - and how often have you read a review where an FPV is regarded as "an excellent car in isolation .. but ....".

If they are not going to change their approach, (highly likely), then perhaps they should try and promote the fact that they will be perpetually off the pace, and realign their marketing accordingly.

Perhaps FPV should have been more accurately named FCV - Ford Cruising Vehicles. :alien2:

I have to say, you people make me sick sometimes, i thought we were all ford fans here, but i must be mistaken!
have a look at some thing for me, the figures for cars WRITTEN OFF, whilst the DRIVER was doing something STUPID!
i think you'l find more often than not, its a standard HSV, that some little twerp has gotten in2 and thinks the car will handle like a go-kart!!!!!!!
I believe FORD and FPV make thier cars the way they do so this doesnt happen, yeah you can push the cars, but you know when to stop, but in a HSV, you cant tell. a friend of mine has written off 3 (HSV's) in the last 6 months, and hasnt learnt!!!

what would you rather, a safe family car, that looks good, and goes well, or a dead teenager????
think about it!

[bazzalong]

Originally Posted by parawolf

They get around it by saying they quote the 'fastest' stats that they can generate - not what they generate it on the day.

I hated reading those magazines and reading the same 1/4 mile figures for two completely different XR8's on two different halves of the year on two different race tracks. They got down to the same hundredth's of a second for the ET with the same tenth of a km/h as an exit velocity

For this reason i'm glad I don't read this magazine because its figures like these that made it annoying to read.

Then there is the part where the editors would only be "active" members on ls1.com.au.

That and the fact that it could never be delivered on time, but thats another thread all together.

how about when they broke TWO F6 manual gearboxes by FLATSHIFTING!!!!
(for those that dont know what that is, its when u keep the accelerator pinned whilst changing gears, then dump the clutch)

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by bazzalong

how about when they broke TWO F6 manual gearboxes by FLATSHIFTING!!!!
(for those that dont know what that is, its when u keep the accelerator pinned whilst changing gears, then dump the clutch)

Excuse me? There was NO PROOF EVER that Motor Magazine flat shifted. That was pure speculation as it was the only way that FPV could reproduce it so quickly without further testing and analysis. If you have read the latest articles from FPV engineering about the problem you will find that it is due to harmonics at over 4000rpm that the issue happens.

Let me repeat and make sure you read this statement, THERE WAS NO PROOF WHAT SO EVER THAT MOTOR FLAT SHIFTED AND WAS VIGOROUSLY DENIED THAT THIS IS WHAT THEY DID AS IT CONSTITUTES MECHANICAL ABUSE. FPV'S OWN TESTING SHOWED THAT IT WAS NOT CAUSED BY FLAT SHIFTING AT ALL.

Get a grip. :

PS: it wasn't a gearbox they 'broke' it was a clutch surclip.

[nz13boy]

Hey guys, 1st time on this site. I own a ls1 with bolt ons and Ive given a few GTs a touch up at the Lights and at the track but who the hell cares. A GT is a beast of a car, which I would buy in an instant if I could. For the money you put up you get quite a good package, and its got looks to die for (even with those poxy stripes). So its a bit mushy around corners, weighs nearly 1900k (it does have a truck block under the hood) and struggles to foot it with a clubbie (and my SS). Big deal, it aint a track weapon and wasnt ment for the strip. Its a cruzin machine which makes it a weapon on the road, its playgrounds are highways and the burbs not the track. I see your point about the lack of Perfomance gains over the XR8 but having driven them both in the real world I can tell you there is a difference between them, even if Motor couldnt find it. Its great to see people pick the crap out of something they are passionate about but as an outsider lookin in I can tell you that at least they are on the right track. When they finally fall in price below 40k il be in like flynn. And besides, MOTOR mag did use the RICECRACKER lover to drive all the cars. Maybe theres a conspiracy goin on. Im a HOLDEN lover but you guys and your BAs have a great platform to work from, owning ones just the start. All the funs in the mods. Cheers CUZ.

[Franky]

Look i'm happy about FPV, they have sold more cars than I expected them to and are appealing to buyers which can only be a positive thing.

One thing I don't like is the fact that FPV sell what 5 different models and they each have similar performance and yet it's hard to distinguish which is the top-of-the-range model in terms of perfomance and image. With HSV it's simple... the GTS is the main high performance model and it's easily distinguishable and very quick. FPV should introduce either a new model that competes with this car or do a complete re-design of the GT when the new falcon comes out that will match the GTS. Until then I think they have set themselves out quite nicely but I believe the F6 is a flop and should not be in the lineup

F6 a flop?!?!

GTS is not on sale anymore either.

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by mickey t

don't mind if you can't stand us. it's your money, but sales don't tell the real story. if they did, you could assume McDonalds made the best hamburgers in the world, coke the best drink and budweiser the best beer. and kylie (god love her) the best music.

it isn't so.

Good to have you involved in this thread MT!

What you are saying above is so ridiculously true! Funnily enough, it was the same argument that many Ford fans used when the AU was released - many said it was a better car (in XR forms) than the equivalent Commodore models, but in sales it was completely flogged. The argument was staunchly defended by the Red Corner that because the Commodore was more popular, it was therefore better. Now we are hearing the same from the FPV apologists. _

Then again, maybe I've got it all wrong, going on what some are saying in this thread. Perhaps being a car enthusiast means appreciating the fiscal aspects of an automotive manufacturer, rather than the enjoyment of driving a fine vehicle. :yeees:

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by nz13boy

Hey guys, 1st time on this site. I own a ls1 with bolt ons and Ive given a few GTs a touch up at the Lights and at the track but who the hell cares. A GT is a beast of a car, which I would buy in an instant if I could. For the money you put up you get quite a good package, and its got looks to die for (even with those poxy stripes). So its a bit mushy around corners, weighs nearly 1900k (it does have a truck block under the hood) and struggles to foot it with a clubbie (and my SS). Big deal, it aint a track weapon and wasnt ment for the strip. Its a cruzin machine which makes it a weapon on the road, its playgrounds are highways and the burbs not the track. I see your point about the lack of Perfomance gains over the XR8 but having driven them both in the real world I can tell you there is a difference between them, even if Motor couldnt find it. Its great to see people pick the crap out of something they are passionate about but as an outsider lookin in I can tell you that at least they are on the right track. When they finally fall in price below 40k il be in like flynn. And besides, MOTOR mag did use the RICECRACKER lover to drive all the cars. Maybe theres a conspiracy goin on. Im a HOLDEN lover but you guys and your BAs have a great platform to work from, owning ones just the start. All the funs in the mods. Cheers CUZ.

Holy crap...this is the most intelligent Holden post I can remember! Im nto taking the **** either! Nice work nz13boy :

The problem is that apparently FPV's are lacking because they are down 1 or 2 k's around a corner. Ok it would be nice if we were quicker, but for the normal GT customer the car is fine. Its us nut heads that mod them to hell that think they should be even better from factory.

If you dont like it:

a) dont buy it
b) buy it and mod it to your tastes

[4Vman]

As ive said before, the biggest critics seem to be the ones who have either never driven or owned a BA or are least likely to be able to afford to own one....
As for the Burger argument you're wrong, McDonalds sell the most Fast Food burgers because they sell the Best Fast food burger, a hamberger shop might sell a nicer berger but its a different market, compare apples with apples and markets with markets.
As for the rediculous "mid corner speed" argument you'd have to be driving the car at 95% to tell the difference and being a total moron and death risk if you did that regularly on the road, we dont need more deaths nor do we need to encourage moronic driving behaviour on our roads.
Its simple, FPV sell a product that is widely accepted as a fantastic performance ROAD vehicle, sales DO tell the story.