Tax review: Pay as you drive proposal

balthazarr · 13-08-2009, 10:35 AM

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2...13/2654463.htm
(my emphasis)

Quote:

Pay-as-you-drive plan touted in tax review
By Meredith Griffiths for AM

The Federal Government is being urged to consider taxing drivers based on how far they drive.

It is just one proposal contained in a new paper commissioned as part of Ken Henry's review of the tax system.

The paper also recommends that truck drivers should be charged more to reflect the damage their heavier vehicles do to roads.

One of the report's authors, economics Professor Harry Clarke from LaTrobe University, says the main proposals are to levy congestion charges on vehicles in urban settings.

"[The aim is] generally to try to get to the point where we're charging people for the actual damage and costs of using roads - rather than fixed charges that are independent of the way they use roads," Professor Clarke said.

"The technology exists now; telemetric devices, or essentially boxes that are inserted in vehicles. These can provide information for commercial trucking fleet operation, or they can provide information to regulators."

The Government would be able to track where drivers went and how far they drove, but Professor Clarke denies this creates any privacy concern.

"That information would only accrue to the device and the user of the device would possess the information, but essentially the Government would be able to work out the charges that were associated with different types of use of roads, yes," he said.

Professor Clarke also says it would be a good thing if trucking companies passed on the costs of increased levies to consumers.

"If trucking companies are using low-durability roads and imposing lots of costs on the community in terms of maintenance costs, then it means that the price of goods that they are transporting should be higher than they are," he said.

"They're not reflecting their full social costs. So the market wouldn't fail at all in that situation; that would be the sort of outcome that you'd hope with these charges.

"The idea of charging on the basis of weight is to encourage heavy-vehicle users of roads to use the roads sensibly; to use the most durable roads, or to make good economic decisions when they come to use roads that are of less than optimal kind of durability."

Riiiight... the government having access to a complete historic log of when/where a vehicle has been... what privacy concerns?

So let's get this straight - trucks cause more damage to roads, so should pay more tax to help pay for maintaining/repairing the roads. This means that they'll pass on costs to consumers (taxpayers), so we end up paying more.

So, under this proposal, taxpayers will end up paying twice - once to fix and maintain the roads (a cost we already pay for) and then again when higher taxes force higher prices for goods.

:

How do these numpties get media play?

EFPWR · 13-08-2009, 10:59 AM

I thought we paid for road maintainence in the rego already? :|

That's going to suck for those of us who's main job role involves being on the road if they bring that rubbish in.

auxr · 13-08-2009, 11:12 AM

Meh - pie in the sky stuff - pure conjecture at this point in time, part of a load of possible reforms put forward as part of the tax reform process - still though, hate to see what other proposals are being touted in K Henry's review.

castellan · 13-08-2009, 11:14 AM

People on the dole ect think it's a good idea.
To the people who have to use the roads for work. it's just another kick in the guts.
We always are having some con artist spinning . and fools picking it up for what sounds good at the moment. they can't see the big picture.

Iggypoppin' · 13-08-2009, 11:30 AM

Act of principle, that telemetric device, if ever it found it's way into my car, would be ripped out and destroyed. I pay too much already for registration costs. Public road maintenence is factored in to registration, and there's change left after that. If the answer to every problem is to tax it, which seems to be the trend nowadays, what's going to happen to us as a society..

MickyB · 13-08-2009, 11:32 AM

Ken Henry is a bit out there, he also wants to do away with regular tax returns and just have a set amount of deductions for each person. Wouldn't want to be a sales rep or similar using my own vehicle if his ideas come to fruition.

388cube_edxr8 · 13-08-2009, 11:41 AM

Don't forget - if the Government knows where we are on the roads, they also know how fast we are going.

Everyone will drive along looking only at their speedo, and not at the children and other cars that they are about to hit.

Stupid idea, just plain stupid.

SLO AU XR8 · 13-08-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJXR6

Act of principle, that telemetric device, if ever it found it's way into my car, would be ripped out and destroyed. I pay too much already for registration costs. Public road maintenence is factored in to registration, and there's change left after that. If the answer to every problem is to tax it, which seems to be the trend nowadays, what's going to happen to us as a society..

+1, I'd be throwing the blasted thing away

Gabbs · 13-08-2009, 11:53 AM

Right so now we should get taxed for driving now. Maybe we should all go back to a horse and kart but then they might charge a tax for the horse chucking a crap on the road.

Iggypoppin' · 13-08-2009, 12:32 PM

There's a tax on the tax that you payed for paying your tax for the tax you got for paying your tax last year.

balthazarr · 13-08-2009, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NJXR6

There's a tax on the tax that you payed for paying your tax for the tax you got for paying your tax last year.

Taxes on taxes? PFFT - what else is new.

Two examples:

1. Vic: Motor Vehicle stamp duty - the dutiable value includes GST, so you pay stamp duty on the GST.
2. SA: Emergency Services Levy - you pay GST on the levy.

:

Sgt.Sweetchuck · 13-08-2009, 01:35 PM

There is already a tax on how much you drive,it's called fuel excise. which is actually double taxed as you have to pay gst on top of it.

dom_105 · 13-08-2009, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by balthazarr

Taxes on taxes? PFFT - what else is new.

Two examples:

1. Vic: Motor Vehicle stamp duty - the dutiable value includes GST, so you pay stamp duty on the GST.
2. SA: Emergency Services Levy - you pay GST on the levy.

:

And, of course, Fuel Excise and GST

Quote:

"That information would only accrue to the device and the user of the device would possess the information

Of course.

...to begin with.

GT69 · 13-08-2009, 02:47 PM

On a side note, i've often wondered, with the level of tech in cars and coming into cars in the near future, how long until your vehicles ecu is used to produce a new fining system. So if you ever did say, 150kph, it would be saved in the cars system, car goes back to dealer and gets retuned and boom boom you get a speeding ticket?

Iggypoppin' · 13-08-2009, 05:20 PM

Good point GT69 but there's a solution around that-rip snorting carby fed V8's. I suppose if road tax laws are introduced it's only a matter of time before things like what you mentioned come into effect.

anto · 13-08-2009, 08:11 PM

welcome to socialism.

cosmo20btt · 13-08-2009, 08:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GT69

On a side note, i've often wondered, with the level of tech in cars and coming into cars in the near future, how long until your vehicles ecu is used to produce a new fining system. So if you ever did say, 150kph, it would be saved in the cars system, car goes back to dealer and gets retuned and boom boom you get a speeding ticket?

Why wait for to go back to the dealer when it can pick it off with a satellite & then book you.

:

big-e · 13-08-2009, 08:27 PM

This is bad news for thieves.

Police officer - you stole this car, approx how many kms did you do during your period of theft so that we can charge you the right amount of tax? Also can I have your Tax File Number and licence.

Falc'man · 13-08-2009, 08:28 PM

"Shoot him and then cut out his tongue!"

Who the . asked for this poof's opinion???

Aren't speed cameras enough of a "highway robbery"???? What is the difference between these lowlifes and the thieves and robbers we all loathe?

"Professor Clarke also says it would be a good thing if trucking companies passed on the costs of increased levies to consumers."

Well it would be a good thing if this thieving pri.k spent his time analysing how ants built their nests.

Iggypoppin' · 13-08-2009, 09:39 PM

Falc'man you are seriously unhappy!
My thoughts on this are pretty left wing. I get very passionate about this sort of rubbish. If they tried to tax me for driving, I wouldn't pay. Cop late fees? Still no pay. Court summons? Like I'd show up. Warrant? I'd cop the arrest and keep defying it all as a matter of principle. Minimum wage and they want more of my money?!!
Eff that. Enoughs enough. Whatever happened to freedom hmm?

**Burnout** · 13-08-2009, 09:52 PM

Stirred up aren't we....???

Clarke has been misquoted by the media. I listened to him on the wireless this afternoon.

To tackle the main points:
His idea is that the trans ponder in your vehicle replaces all current taxes, including GST on fuel, excise, state taxes like rego, mysterious road charges which appear on your rego papers each year.
Additionally the transponder can only download a $ value to the Govt in order that they might charge the vehicle operator. It would not report where you go when you went or your route traveled during the tax period.

On roads like say the gregory developmental road if you traveled up it there would be no charge as the Govt has a social obligation to maintain the road to an acceptable condition.
If on the other hand you were a user of the Hume Highway, you would pay the tax annually.

Iggypoppin' · 13-08-2009, 10:05 PM

Rage abating, but I'd love to see how they would value each klm..
4c per klm, I travelled 30,000 klm last year, that's um...120,000 cents, or I think if my quick maths is good, 1200 bucks?? It could be more or less obviously, and obviously the dropping of all other taxes and charges would make it easier to bear, but it still isn't good to hear they just want to tax us dry.

**Burnout** · 13-08-2009, 10:12 PM

Unfortunately I didn't hear what his proposed charges per km or 1000km or whatever.
He developed the idea after seeing the revenue collected by the Federals & the states last year, around 16.3 Billion & collectively they spent 9.4Billion on road transport infrastructure.
He reckons we are getting the raw deal as motorists.

Rodp · 13-08-2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnedout

Stirred up aren't we....???

Clarke has been misquoted by the media. I listened to him on the wireless this afternoon.

To tackle the main points:
His idea is that the trans ponder in your vehicle replaces all current taxes, including GST on fuel, excise, state taxes like rego, mysterious road charges which appear on your rego papers each year.
Additionally the transponder can only download a $ value to the Govt in order that they might charge the vehicle operator. It would not report where you go when you went or your route traveled during the tax period.

On roads like say the gregory developmental road if you traveled up it there would be no charge as the Govt has a social obligation to maintain the road to an acceptable condition.
If on the other hand you were a user of the Hume Highway, you would pay the tax annually.

That doesn't sound too heinous and unreasonable. I'd always be concerned about having a gadget in my car that uploads information to GovCo though.

Bent8 · 13-08-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnedout

Stirred up aren't we....???

Clarke has been misquoted by the media. I listened to him on the wireless this afternoon.

To tackle the main points:
His idea is that the trans ponder in your vehicle replaces all current taxes, including GST on fuel, excise, state taxes like rego, mysterious road charges which appear on your rego papers each year.
Additionally the transponder can only download a $ value to the Govt in order that they might charge the vehicle operator. It would not report where you go when you went or your route traveled during the tax period.

Yeah sounds reasonable now but wait till it's introduced and then it will be a free-for-all !!

They already have the tech to disable your car via satellite if a thief steals your car in the US...no thanks, that EVIL device will have a short life indeed if it gets anywhere near my beast!

And if you think I'm paranoid, just remember this...

Absolute power corrupts absolutely!

dom_105 · 13-08-2009, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Burnedout

Stirred up aren't we....???

Clarke has been misquoted by the media. I listened to him on the wireless this afternoon.

To tackle the main points:
His idea is that the trans ponder in your vehicle replaces all current taxes, including GST on fuel, excise, state taxes like rego, mysterious road charges which appear on your rego papers each year.
Additionally the transponder can only download a $ value to the Govt in order that they might charge the vehicle operator. It would not report where you go when you went or your route traveled during the tax period.

On roads like say the gregory developmental road if you traveled up it there would be no charge as the Govt has a social obligation to maintain the road to an acceptable condition.
If on the other hand you were a user of the Hume Highway, you would pay the tax annually.

If it doesn't report where you go, how would it know what road you are on?

Iggypoppin' · 13-08-2009, 11:21 PM

Well said bent8. I don't want anyone interfering with my car

mafiastafcar · 13-08-2009, 11:22 PM

Think about it... people get wind that they'll be paying extra per km- so they start driving less and car pooling. Then you have a new wave of whinging about passengers not coughing up their share of the tax :p

Because the guvmint won't be getting as much money (cos peeps will be driving less) they'll naturally up the tax rate, which will stuff people who have to travel often or long distances: so you end up with a system that forces people off the road bit by bit and those remaining find their tax burden steadily increasing.

Then of course, there is the problem of hoards of people suddenly and drastically reducing their road travel and the guvt facing a huge deficit, which it will shift onto some other poor saps.

Is it scientifically proven that you can't beat sense into people? Why not propose some testing of the theory, starting with certain members of the public elect :S

**Burnout** · 14-08-2009, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dom_105

If it doesn't report where you go, how would it know what road you are on?

The therory is it would only download a $ value to Govt to allow the got to bill you for road use.

Could it be abused - I suppose it could. I am not necessarily an advocate for this tax idea other than to clarify some BS reported by some members of the ever truthful media.

**Burnout** · 14-08-2009, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mafiastafcar

Think about it... people get wind that they'll be paying extra per km- so they start driving less and car pooling. Then you have a new wave of whinging about passengers not coughing up their share of the tax :p

Because the guvmint won't be getting as much money (cos peeps will be driving less) they'll naturally up the tax rate, which will stuff people who have to travel often or long distances: so you end up with a system that forces people off the road bit by bit and those remaining find their tax burden steadily increasing.

Then of course, there is the problem of hoards of people suddenly and drastically reducing their road travel and the guvt facing a huge deficit, which it will shift onto some other poor saps.

Is it scientifically proven that you can't beat sense into people? Why not propose some testing of the theory, starting with certain members of the public elect :S

It is all very well to have a about paying ALL the tax on your cars report to govt, I doubt you could argue for car pooling after all you as the driver/owner let the passengers in the car in the first place. You might be a stingy beggar and make all passengers pay their portion of the tax by making them sign a contract to ride in your car.

If your car was stolen or driven by your mechanic, child, loaned to wife/neighbour/friend/etc. would be left to how stingy you might be, I suppose.