Cash for clunkers down under?

[Romulus]

There'd be more support if the government did what Germany did and gave 2500 Euros for an old car traded in on a new car. That's close to $5k, a healthy rebate I believe. Rather than wasting billions of dollars on BER, Rudd's $900 cash splash, an insulation program that burnt down houses and is causing the insulation industry a great deal of hardship, saving that money and offering people a sizable rebate on a new car would have made better sense. $2k hardly covers stamp duty and GST on most cars.

As for manufacturer's having to meet stricter emission regulations by 2015 perhaps Ford, Holden and Toyota Oz should take a look at what their counterparts overseas are endevouring to achieve. Tier 2 Bin 5 and ACEA standards look like decades away in Australia. In the mean time 130g/km of CO is the target for Europe for all new passenger cars including imports by 2015.

Our Falcon and Commodores have a long, long way to go yet. That is if they survive. My money is on NO.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Individuals who meet the following criteria will be eligible under the scheme.
The trade in vehicle must:
* Be a passenger vehicle.
* Have been manufactured before 1 January 1995.
* Have been continuously registered and insured by the individual trading in the vehicle for at least 24 months prior to the date of trade in.
* Be petrol or diesel-fuelled.

The new vehicle must:
* Be a passenger vehicle.
* Be purchased by the individual trading in the older car - businesses and fleet purchases are not eligible.
* Have a minimum Green Vehicle Guide greenhouse rating of six or higher–
this is equivalent to 220 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre, which is
around the Australian fleet-wide average.
* Not incur the Luxury Car Tax.

Well, I think those conditions are pretty good. At least a little thought has gone into who can and who can't get it.

If you tried to rort it, you will be up for fees or ownership costs that are around the same as the grant.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

There'd be more support if the government did what Germany did and gave 2500 Euros for an old car traded in on a new car. That's close to $5k, a healthy rebate I believe. Rather than wasting billions of dollars on BER, Rudd's $900 cash splash, an insulation program that burnt down houses and is causing the insulation industry a great deal of hardship, saving that money and offering people a sizable rebate on a new car would have made better sense. $2k hardly covers stamp duty and GST on most cars.

But the difference is that you will see where the 2 grand goes. If a car was 11990 prior to the grant (such as the new Proton or the Alto) then it will be 9990 after.

Unlike houses, where the cost isn't black and white. Of course the value of a house is what the seller is happy to let it go for and the buyer is willing to pay. 7-14-21 grand can be lost or gained very easily in a wave of new buyers but there is no way that a 15 grand car will all of a sudden be 17 grand, or 12 grand car will all of a sudden go to 14 next week.

[WMD351]

I've long feared this day would come. This could really start to dry up the availability of muscle car projects. In other countries they didn't hide behind some green crap excuse, they did it to stimulate new car sales. Gillards populist policies suck.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

But the difference is that you will see where the 2 grand goes. If a car was 11990 prior to the grant (such as the new Proton or the Alto) then it will be 9990 after.

Unlike houses, where the cost isn't black and white. Of course the value of a house is what the seller is happy to let it go for and the buyer is willing to pay. 7-14-21 grand can be lost or gained very easily in a wave of new buyers but there is no way that a 15 grand car will all of a sudden be 17 grand, or 12 grand car will all of a sudden go to 14 next week.

I'm not implying car prices will increase by 2 grand; competition will see to that. And unlike housing there's rarely a shortage of vehicles that drive (excuse the pun) prices up. My point being $2k is not enough, $5k would be a minimum grant if the government was serious about emission reduction. But by the governments own admission today private vehicles contribute less than 10% of CO2 emissions.

[Pat Riley]

How is it costing the government $2,000 per vehicle, when the state government would be making roughly $1,000 due to stamp duty on a new car and the federal government would be making what would like be at least $2,000 in GST per new car. That's $3,000 of taxes that fall directly into the government's hands when someone buys a new car. So really is it costing them anything? They are going to be taking $2,000 away from what would likely otherwise have been put aside to help the country, and convert that into $3,000 that they will go and spend on whatever they want without disclosure due to the fact that it is just general revenue for them.

What about the profits the car companies make when selling each of these cars and the extra income tax that falls into the governments pockets from the dealerships additional profits? What about the additional profits and therefore additional taxes that the finance companies will be paying at year end after signing up these new car buyers to cars they can't afford? What about the additional profits earned by the companies that will be servicing and insuring these new cars and the extra taxes associated with these extra profits? It all comes back into the government's pockets. It's like a nice little circle of money for the government.

Collectively, it's conceivable that the government stands to benefit by anywhere around $7,000 for each person buying a new car. Even after they pay out $2,000, they're still $5,000 ahead!

I think this is just a sneaky way of revenue raising, whilst giving the impression that they are actually helping the country. In reality, they are just supporting the capitalist system which has caused the world financial distress, and are increased the amount of borrowings per capita to unsustainable levels.

[The Yeti]

It doesnt matter if its compolsery or not, it will still deplete the supply of clasics in future years

lets fase it all our classics went through a its just and old car phase before it apreceated in value,even the undesierable models are parts cars for more desierables.

this will only casue damage to our hobie but we could always drive late model ricers and then atleast we have a only devalued our cars down to 2k

[jpd80]

In Australia, motor vehicles are not the great CO2 polluters they are mad out to be, not by a long shot.

I would rather the government take this $400 million and put it with the other $1 billion
set to clean up coal fired power plants and speed up implementation of CO2 sequestration plans.
That would be the equivalent of taking every car off the road ten times over....

[302 XC]

Its not REALLY goin to dry up raw materials,
If the vehichle has to regoed for 2 years
So we gunna pull the old (unregoed) clunker from the shed get it up to rego specs,drive for 2 years then trade in for 2 K ???
I dont think so
They will then become what ,scrap only
The HIGH scrap prices of few years ago helped clean up the old rust buckets lying around
Didnt sydney get near $500 a tonne for scrap ???
Reading a few of these replies , its just waving a big carrot to the unintelligent
Just like the $900 government grab of years ago

[XWildGT]

Good way to buy votes have to do better then that to get my vote what a scam you will need every bit of that $2000 for the fees and tax's etc theres bigger issues to worry about then old cars so typical of the labour party throw money at us then they will like us LOL

[Hardtopxb]

This is just typical election bull****..

[jpd80]

If the government is so danged worried about the emissions of old cars,
why don't they just enforce mandatory emission tests for+15 year and +20 year old vehicles.

You know why not?

Because it's all political BS, there is no real problem with old cars, the average life expectancy of an Aussie car
is something like 17 years and quite a few fall off their perch every year. let natural selection keep thinning
the heard and stop spending the tax payers' money on unnecessary programs.

We should not be footing the bill for others to buy new cars.

[pottery beige]

that $2k could be better spent buying laptops for facebook surfing schoolkids ....

[naddis01]

Originally Posted by Brazen

That is fantastic news for the Falcon! That list cant be it all the cars though, I can think of a lot more vehicles which would have better emissions - where is the Suzuki Alto or Nissan Micra, I assume this must be eligible cars in the current top 10.

That is definately not all the cars. Correct me if I am wrong but 220 grams of carbon dioxide per kilometre would work out roughly to:
9.24L/100km for petrol
8.30L/100km for diesel
13.66L/100km for LPG.

So that is quite a list of eligible cars. It also gives a clue to the absolute worst combined consumption the Ecoboost can be.

[Brazen]

When half ofthe emissions come from coal-powered power plants and they wont even consider nuclear (we wont go into the pros and cons on this forum, but at least the government should intelligently debate it).

I would think if it was a blatent rebate on a new Australian-made car I would appreciate it more, but for environmental reasons for any car? Please, its just pathetic.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

When half ofthe emissions come from coal-powered power plants and they wont even consider nuclear (we wont go into the pros and cons on this forum, but at least the government should intelligently debate it).

The government has also announced $1 billion to assist sequestration of CO2 from coal fired power plants.

I would think if it was a blatent rebate on a new Australian-made car I would appreciate it more, but for environmental reasons for any car? Please, its just pathetic.

Now now, that would be seen as a stealth tariff and would be roundly
poo pooed by all and sundry who love their cheap Asian cars...

[Barry_v]

Its just window dressing, $2000 is not significant enough for many people to take it up.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by Barry_v

Its just window dressing, $2000 is not significant enough for many people to take it up.

it is just their usual smoke and mirrors - my wife and i are in the very small minority that are looking to get rid of the 91 model for a brand new car
and our situation is different - i would be happy to keep the older cars, but she is relatively new to the country and in the philippines, there is not the same amount of old cars. to her our two 91 models are antiques
the average australian couple though, either have newer cars when trading up to a brand new one or if their cars are over 15 years old, they have no interest in buying a new car

[jpd80]

Actually, I suspect that a lot of people with cars built before 1995 would be
more likely to upgrade to a 5-10 years old car that's more in their price range.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The government has also announced $1 billion to assist sequestration of CO2 from coal fired power plants.

Pfft carbon sequestration is a load of bull, umm lets find a totally inert, geographically ideal underground aquifer right by a power plant to pump the C02 into.. fat chance. Even if they do find it, it can be just as dangerous as nuclear waste as the C02 leaches into the water table, causing widespread damage. And in the end most of it finds its way back into the atmosphere anyway!

I imagine the billion will be spent on pointless studies, expriments and pilot areas with no or little C02 reduction, as it costs over 3 billion for a single pilot plant.

[Barry_v]

I'd gladly rid the world of our '95 KS verada for a new car. But being a uni student I'm a bit more than $2000 short of buying a new car. Most people driving sub-$2000 cars are in the same boat.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Pfft carbon sequestration is a load of bull, umm lets find a totally inert, geographically ideal underground aquifer right by a power plant to pump the C02 into.. fat chance. Even if they do find it, it can be just as dangerous as nuclear waste as the C02 leaches into the water table, causing widespread damage. And in the end most of it finds its way back into the atmosphere anyway!

I imagine the billion will be spent on pointless studies, expriments and pilot areas with no or little C02 reduction, as it costs over 3 billion for a single pilot plant.

They are actually trialling it at Callide power plant about 120 klm West of me for the past year.
i have spoken to engineers on the project and the work is extremely promising.

Gas can successfully be trapped underground without leakage,
the problem has always been making it economical to do so.
I can tell you that impediment is being removed.......

[WMD351]

What's wrong with CO2 anyway?, I thought carbon monoxide was the bad one. If CO2 is good enough for trees to breath maybe the greenies should be made to live of the stuff.

[Mr Hardware]

Boy is my dad annoyed. He's got a August 1995 camry he's gonna trade in on a new camry in the next few months. No dough for him, his clunker is too new.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by flappist

From the money tree of course......

If not used for this it will be wasted on something else. How about insulation in the roofs of new school halls to be built in schools that are closed. Or maybe some hospital payroll systems.

I have heard that speed cameras are nearly as good a profit centre as cigarettes, poker machines and casinos maybe we vould buy a few hundred thousand more of them......

Good news for the ecoboost falcon.

I agree where will this money come from? Oh right i have my wallet out to hand out my fair share. That said there are areas needing more attention then the 'clunkers' on our roads, how about the roads they are driving on or as you mentioned how bout fixing the hospital payroll system and actually paying the staff?

[russellw]

A couple of points.

1. As far as I can tell from the information released thus far, the replacement vehicle must have a greenhouse emissions rating of 6.0 and above. It doesn't seem to imply that this has to be a new vehicle but as the rating is only currently supplied for vehicles from 2004 onward, it would have to be that vintage at worst.

2. The list below is for Ford models across that period that meet this requirement.



A quick look around Carsales.com shows that about the cheapest option is a circa $7,000 Fiesta with about 120k km up.

3. The crushing of older models will likely be a travesty for enthusiasts. While the scenario mentioned above of a high value XY or similar being crushed is relatively unlikely, there is every chance that a lesser model that could be used for restoration parts (or be a restoration project itself) could fall victim.

Case in point. My local fish wrapper currently has a driveable XC Ute advertised for about $1200, thus it would be a candidate for this scheme. However, it looks to have some restoration potential but would equally provide a good supply of body and trim parts for any XC restoration which would be lost to the available pool if it went to the crusher. I am sure there are plenty more examples.

4. The scheme has some potential to remove a few vehicles from our National fleet but it also likely that the price of the entry level compliant models (Ford or otherwise) will rise as a result of increased demand thus negating any benefit from the scheme to the consumer.

5. This is likely the thin end of the wedge anyway. We can expect either increased taxation on these older "non compliant" vehicles in the form of an emissions tax or for them to be legislated out of existence.

6. One could also extrapolate that the future of even our forthcoming Coyote V8 could be in doubt when it will be required to meet whatever guidelines are put in place for 2015. The cost of meeting compliance testing is substantial and it would be difficult for any manufacturer to justify those costs for low volume vehicle/engine combinations. We can see this already in the lack of current certification for the e-Gas engine with anything other than the antiquated 4 speed auto and thus we can expect to see less choices in driveline combinations as well as some disappearing altogether.

While on the subject of the dedicated LPG options, the current Ford offerings have a Greenhouse rating of 5.0 as does the Commodore equivalent.

As usual, whenever politicians can find a soft target or something that sounds plausible to a lesser educated section of the community, then they are going to leverage whatever they can from it.

On the plus side, I can't see it costing anything like the estimated figure as I can't see 200,000 vehicles being sacrificed to it although I note that the administrative costs for the scheme have not been mentioned!

Cheers
Russ

[deesun]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Actually, I suspect that a lot of people with cars built before 1995 would be
more likely to upgrade to a 5-10 years old car that's more in their price range.

BINGO.

[WMD351]

I reckon a 25 year old rustbucket XF will last longer than a brand new plastic box made from sardine tins anyway.

[LUXO_8]

i can see it being like the lpg rebate.....there the price of cars will go up by a couple of grand therefore making the rebate scheme redundant....and just another tax grab

[Dragoneletra]

Originally Posted by GT Falcon

There'd be more support if the government did what Germany did and gave 2500 Euros for an old car traded in on a new car. That's close to $5k, a healthy rebate I believe. Rather than wasting billions of dollars on BER, Rudd's $900 cash splash, an insulation program that burnt down houses and is causing the insulation industry a great deal of hardship,

Insulation was actually a really good idea. The insulation used is actually fully legal and plenty of people had the foil insulation installed in their houses previously with no issues, because it was installed properly. It also worked incredibly well.
The only way the govt screwed up is because they didn't regulate or inspect the dodgy buggers putting it in (or frequently not even installing it but charging for it) Don't blame the govt for the thieves and cheats. I am in close contact with the industry through work. In fact, i'll be putting foil insulation in my place later on, properly.

The media isn't always correct. I think you will find that a fair few people are going to be going to court due to their unethical work practices in the future as there is currently an audit going around australia testing and inspecting every installation on record, and if there are faults it is being removed.

But I digress.....

And yes, I think Gillards idea of giving 2k for every old car traded in is pathetic. Once every two years the local car deals give you a minimum of 4k as long as its registered and runs.....

Jc