Road rule loop-holes

jamesson1980 · 15-11-2010, 03:49 PM

I'm aware this thread may be removed as I've discussed police/insurance in here but I'l give it a go because I'm really saddened by something that happened on the weekend that has given me the feeling the law can't be trusted to protect the innocent. It seems that every road incident is a 50/50 gamble on whether or not the police work will be done right.

Saturday night (nov. 13) my sister was coming out of a T-intersection thru a green light in a string of other cars. A girl came flying thru the red, hitting my sister's car in the drivers door, destroying both cars and giving both drivers severe bruising. Of all the people who were standing around after seeing the incident, the police didn't approach one, therefore, no witness statement, therefore "the colour of the lights at the time is unknown so they are not a factor in this case..". So now the default yield rule applies under which my sister needed to give way to her right and as she did not, due to the green light, she's at fault. The other uninsured motorist gets paid out, and my sister with only her third party bomb insurance gets nothing but an excess bill.

So not only has the random drunken fist of justice punched her in the face, her insurance have left her for dead too.

I'm fuming over this, and so are all family and friends. I thought I'd put it out here for other frequent road users to read and input any experiences they may have had where laziness, incompetence, and lack of commonsense have led to a crash victim paying the price.

NAK302 · 15-11-2010, 04:10 PM

typical........
i figured long ago Police are only human, which is why i disrespect them the way i do. i cannot ever remember anything good when dealing with them. period.

i feel for you and your sister matey, perhaps there may be a witnes from that night that you may be able to locate. put an ad in the paper asking if folks will come forward to help you out.

jamesson1980 · 15-11-2010, 04:23 PM

Thanks man. Not sure if a witness at this late hour would help but why not try ay. Might put up a sign at the intersection. Also, anyone in here from the Cranbourne/Karingal/Carrum Downs area in Melbourne who may have been at Ballarto Rd/McLelland Dve about 6-6:20 Saturday evening let me know. I realise it's a 100-1 shot but
I did actually see a fellow forum user EBW-302 cruise thru the scene in his unmistakably low wagon about half hour after the incident so who knows, there may be others.

NAK302 · 15-11-2010, 04:30 PM

good luck with it. i hope it pans out for you both.

99AUXR · 15-11-2010, 04:31 PM

sucks mate, best of luck to you getting the justice you and your sis deserve

kinksta · 15-11-2010, 04:33 PM

Yea it is unfair at times. My first problem with the law in 8 years since having my license, I did a U-turn over double lines which were poorly maintained and not visible at night time. I took photos showing it, heaps of photos, and when you look at them you cannot see any lines, yet my case was thrown out. Even though I had proof. Also got slugged double demerits, so I am never going back to Pt Macquarie haha...

Velociraptor82 · 15-11-2010, 04:45 PM

We had a simialr experience only involving insurance where we were sitting in the Meteor waiting to back out of a park spot when a bomb of a datsun stationwagon come around the corner and hit our stationary car. (we know the driver and passenger swapped seats probably cos the driver wasn't old enough to be licenced but we didn't say anything about that) When we made our claim to insurance we found that the datsun had claimed that we were at fault for reversing into them. Becasue the insurance couldn't decide between truth and fiction, both parites had to pay for their own damage which was pretty unfair for us.

I hope everything goes well for you jamesson1980.

rancidpunx · 15-11-2010, 05:30 PM

I have often though about what I would do in the event of an accident. This just confirms it for me. Stuff the other party to start with, ask the closest person to be a witness straight away.

Jim Goose · 15-11-2010, 05:53 PM

I dont understand how your saying that in an intersection controlled by traffic lights, if it isnt known what colour they were the "give way to the right applies" ??

For a start its an intersecton controlled by traffic lights, it needs to be established what the colour was in order to see who is at fault.(I would be going back to Police)

If the lights were not working or flashing yellow, then the T intersection rules apply.
There is NO such thing as give way to the right at a T intersection (unless it is signed)
Through traffic have right of way.

Ben73 · 15-11-2010, 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

I dont understand how your saying that in an intersection controlled by traffic lights, if it isnt known what colour they were the "give way to the right applies" ??

For a start its an intersecton controlled by traffic lights, it needs to be established what the colour was in order to see who is at fault.(I would be going back to Police)

If the lights were not working or flashing yellow, then the T intersection rules apply.
There is NO such thing as give way to the right at a T intersection (unless it is signed)
Through traffic have right of way.

I believe this is true. Never heard of give way to right at intersections.

2002au · 15-11-2010, 06:13 PM

hope it all works out mate, and that your sister's ok.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 06:19 PM

I want more info, who is taking the lights out of the equation? The police or the insurer ?

Yellow_Festiva · 15-11-2010, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaw

I want more info, who is taking the lights out of the equation? The police or the insurer ?

Exactly... to the OP. DO NOT allow yourself or your sister roll over and take it. If your story is as you say, fight it with all you can.

There is the insurance ombudsman, the police ombudsman, your local member and talkback radio / television or your own legal avenues.

If it happened to me as it happened to you I would not rest till the fair and correct justice is served.

Good luck.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 07:13 PM

In an insurance enviorment, it is something that is sometimes done. However this does not make it law. Police certainly can not do it. It cannot simply be ignored unless both parties agree to it. If there is no witness and both stating they had a green light it is conflicting versions. neither can be proven. Keep in mind this is civil law, not criminal law. It works on the balance of probabilities. Which is esentially one story has to out weigh the other. even if one is only 51% more likely than the other. I am happy to help you or give my opinion if you want to PM me.

Iggypoppin' · 15-11-2010, 07:14 PM

I agree, the police can't give up the case because no one came forward as a witness. Surely the fact a whole other heap of cars moved through the T at the same time is evident? And surely they where not so quick to dismiss this? Not police bashing either by the way, just pointing out facts.

pottery beige · 15-11-2010, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

I have often though about what I would do in the event of an accident. This just confirms it for me. Stuff the other party to start with, ask the closest person to be a witness straight away.

this is where its at........ independant witness makes a big difference....

GS608 · 15-11-2010, 07:50 PM

IF you're really stuck maybe visit a few local shops (do any have a clear view of the intersection?) Ask them if they can check their CCTV or even if they saw the accident..never know you may get lucky, any traffic cameras in the area?

FgNewbie · 15-11-2010, 08:16 PM

Agreed, I'd definitely advertise in the local rag for any witnesses.

If you are member of RACV, I believe they have free legal advice.

I haven't seen a Victorian acco report but I'd be asking the attending officer for a copy of the accident report.
Alternatively you can formally request one (fees apply).
http://www.police.vic.gov.au/content...ocument_ID=683

If you are extremely lucky and ask around, the accident may be recorded on a CCTV / security camera system.

Wishing everyone a speedy recovery and as other have said, don't roll over.

edit: I should of refreshed before posting. XR-Chief had the same thought while I was looking at Google maps and other crap.

mik · 15-11-2010, 08:24 PM

i can`t see a camera on google map/sattelite, but the pic may be old.
it shows a decent pic at : Ballarto Rd cnr MCcLelland Drive

FgNewbie · 15-11-2010, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mik

i can`t see a camera on google map/sattelite, but the pic may be old.
it shows a decent pic at : Ballarto Rd cnr MCcLelland Drive

on google street view I saw a couple of commercial looking places... long shot but hopeful.

edit: I'd even ask at the houses if they saw anything or maybe they are nuts like me and have domestic CCTV.

Mr Brooksy · 15-11-2010, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Exactly... to the OP. DO NOT allow yourself or your sister roll over and take it. If your story is as you say, fight it with all you can.

There is the insurance ombudsman, the police ombudsman, your local member and talkback radio / television or your own legal avenues.

If it happened to me as it happened to you I would not rest till the fair and correct justice is served.

Good luck.

Agreed! Do whatever you can. It's a huge inconvenience but at the end of the day it's the 'right' thing to do.

**Jastel** · 15-11-2010, 09:01 PM

It sucks but thats what happens sometimes, thats why you need comprehensive insurance to be sure.

You get hit by a drunk/unlicensed/uninsured driver therefore no insurance and you (or your insurance) have to sue them yourself, they have no money (or any intention to pay) and you (or your insurance) foot the whole bill. Most of the time insurance companies find it easier and cheaper to cut their losses. Of course insurance companies can just raise premiums next year as they do.

**Mechan1k** · 15-11-2010, 09:19 PM

This is one reason why I really should be putting a camera in the ute to record everything when i drive .... just so I have proof IF something happens.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 09:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

This is one reason why I really should be putting a camera in the ute to record everything when i drive .... just so I have proof IF something happens.

Funny you should say that. I dealt with a claim the other day where the third party was a bus. If it was not for how great the video footage was from the bus. It had one camera on the driver, one on the road ahead and several through out the bus. Each camera was so clear. If it was not for the camera I would have based on the written version from both drivers I would have passed the file to legals. It can make a difference.

**Mechan1k** · 15-11-2010, 09:33 PM

Hence why I will be getting a camera from on-site cameras (forum sponsor) ... they are HD and the image/video footage is awesome quality ... there's a few clips up already in there to show what it is like.

I think it is worth it really. Plus it is amusing to show footage of what people do when behind the wheel on our roads.

leighm · 15-11-2010, 09:52 PM

My partner was in a similar situation to this, though it looked like it was her fault, evcen though it wasn't. There were no witnesses. The police conclusion to the insurance companies was that the fault could not be determined.

Our insurance company decided it was her fault, she was adamant it was not. She requested the insurance company investigate the fault further. They did and refunded us the excess money they had previously charged at repairs.

You have the right to ask them to review the accident again. If they refuse go to the insurance ombudsman, you shouldn't have to pay a cent.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 10:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leighm

My partner was in a similar situation to this, though it looked like it was her fault, evcen though it wasn't. There were no witnesses. The police conclusion to the insurance companies was that the fault could not be determined.

Our insurance company decided it was her fault, she was adamant it was not. She requested the insurance company investigate the fault further. They did and refunded us the excess money they had previously charged at repairs.

You have the right to ask them to review the accident again. If they refuse go to the insurance ombudsman, you shouldn't have to pay a cent.

Insurance companies do not rely on police to make a liability descion. We use police reports more to get information from what was said at the time and if any witness's that are not otherwise known. Quite often police do not get liability correct. They are looking at traffic infringemnets, not liability. They do not always go hand in hand.

Alby1 · 15-11-2010, 10:11 PM

I'd be talking to a lawyer

Adamz Ghia · 15-11-2010, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alby1

I'd be talking to a lawyer

That's what I did when my EF was written off, I was determined to be at fault so the firt call I made was to my solicitor. Took a while, but I won out in the end.

Yaw · 15-11-2010, 11:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

That's what I did when my EF was written off, I was determined to be at fault so the firt call I made was to my solicitor. Took a while, but I won out in the end.

You needed a lawyer because you were determined to be at fault?!?!?!

There are plenty of free options before paying for a lawyer.
You can go through the insurers internal dispute resolution service, from there you can go to the finacial ombudsman to review.