Performance Ranger. Wise move or sales disaster?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by PHANTMXR6

What target audience is the Wildtrak pitched at?

I'ld take a guess and say surbanites that have intention of towing a boat to the dam...

See quite a few around, not a bad bit of gear either.

[Polyal]

But the range already has a diesel, so having a performance diesel kind of defeats the purpose when we have Miami's that could be moved....didnt FPV mention something about the possibility of having it installed in other cars?

Id love to know if there is one kicking about the PG...afterall BOSSXR8 has shown us that there is a SVT Raptor with PD at the moment. Wonder what components they are bench marketing out of that?

[2011G6E]

Sad to say, but the days of the V8 are numbered withrising fuel costs and increasingly strict fuel economy requirements and regulations coming in around the world...and face it, there's better ways to get performance out of a car nowadays than to "just put a V8 in it"...

Do we really need to go down the American path of "V8 sports trucks"...?

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by mash again

real world figures for a 76 series or 79 series v8 landcruiser is more like 14l/100km. was doing 3000km a month for work and mostly at 80km/hr or over, and if you use the perforemance that a performance diesel can give it will chew fuel just the same. people buy diesel because they think its cheaper to run, if you could buy a 120kw petrol territory bet that would be good on fuel aswell.

The V8 TD in the 76/79 series Landcruiser is an old, agricultural engine. 4.5L V8 TD with 151kW/430Nm are terrible figures by todays standards (consider Hyundai make a 2L 4 cylinder diesel with 135kW/392Nm) Couple those low outputs with a 5 speed manual only transmission, and you get a very poor combination of engine/gearbox. The advantage of the 76/79 series comes where the torque is made. Maximum torque by 1,200rpm means the turbo is spooling from idle, but alas, as a performance engine, it is woeful.

If you look to the Germans, and Audi in particular, they have a 4.2L V8 TD that makes 250kW/800Nm, or even back at Toyota in the 200 series Landcruiser, which is the same engine as is in the 79 series, only with twin turbos and different engine management, it makes 195kW/650Nm.

So I think there's a market there for a performance (or maybe I should say high output) diesel engine market, but a petrol one would be absolute suicide for any manufacturer.

[bradsxr8]

Short answer: Yes we need a performance ranger,
The 3.2l is still under powered and to much lag from standing start.
I wouldn't mind if it came with a v8 supercharged miami or the 6.7l diesel from the f250, but for me I would also like longer legs like the f250 so the revs are kept down. (1600@100km)I would order one today. and know many people around here that would too. and i bet the 6.7l would be better on fuel towing 3 ton than the 3.2 and last twice as long. just my idea, but Australia needs a powerful torquey ute.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nic85

The V8 TD in the 76/79 series Landcruiser is an old, agricultural engine. 4.5L V8 TD with 151kW/430Nm are terrible figures by todays standards (consider Hyundai make a 2L 4 cylinder diesel with 135kW/392Nm) Couple those low outputs with a 5 speed manual only transmission, and you get a very poor combination of engine/gearbox. The advantage of the 76/79 series comes where the torque is made. Maximum torque by 1,200rpm means the turbo is spooling from idle, but alas, as a performance engine, it is woeful.

If you look to the Germans, and Audi in particular, they have a 4.2L V8 TD that makes 250kW/800Nm, or even back at Toyota in the 200 series Landcruiser, which is the same engine as is in the 79 series, only with twin turbos and different engine management, it makes 195kW/650Nm.

So I think there's a market there for a performance (or maybe I should say high output) diesel engine market, but a petrol one would be absolute suicide for any manufacturer.

Japanese diesel tech is rubbish compared to the Euro stuff, they are a whole generation behind, if they haven't already given up. Aren't Toyota now going to use BMW 4 cylinder diesels?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

A performance Ranger would be cool, but with the Wildtrak already expensive at what, 65k, a performance version would be north of 70-80k.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Japanese diesel tech is rubbish compared to the Euro stuff, they are a whole generation behind, if they haven't already given up. Aren't Toyota now going to use BMW 4 cylinder diesels?

If you can't beat 'em, join 'em.

A performance Ranger would be cool, but with the Wildtrak already expensive at what, 65k, a performance version would be north of 70-80k.

Nissan has just sort of almost caught up with their 3L V6 diesel, but you're right; the Euro's were doing those figures in 2005. I did read something about BMW borrowing Toyotas hybrid tech in exchange for a couple diesel engines.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Sad to say, but the days of the V8 are numbered withrising fuel costs and increasingly strict fuel economy requirements and regulations coming in around the world...and face it, there's better ways to get performance out of a car nowadays than to "just put a V8 in it"...

Do we really need to go down the American path of "V8 sports trucks"...?

Yes...and just because we can. It would certainly give the range (<<pun) a lift and set it apart..its a pretty crowded segment.

And I think you are very wrong about V8's being done for...many manufacturers have great engines, Ford US as an amazing spread at the moment. Sure many are downsizing but there are many cars that prove that if you have the right package then it sells..I believe AMG set a record last year in Oz for there range which is basically motivated by a V8.

And its not all about outright performance, look at the old FPV V8's, they were still loved and the only thing they did really well was sound good (yes the badge helped too).

Id be happy if the plan to replace the Falcon XR8/Pursuit ute was ultimately a V8 Ranger.

[Nikked]

I think the japanese chased rugged reliabiliy rather then perfomance figures...well toyota anyway.

Haven't heard many complaints from hilux owners about the engines...except commonrails...

[FPV8U]

A sports ranger would tick alot of boxes if priced right, no need to have it Wildtrak spec, XLT spec with a V8 or EB V6, i think you would see alot of sales look at how many of these "Work trucks" you see rolling around on 20" rims towing ski boats..

But sadly this isn't likely to happen as Ford AU won't want to burn money on any risky models anytime soon.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

A sports ranger would tick alot of boxes if priced right, no need to have it Wildtrak spec, XLT spec with a V8 or EB V6, i think you would see alot of sales look at how many of these "Work trucks" you see rolling around on 20" rims towing ski boats..

But sadly this isn't likely to happen as Ford AU won't want to burn money on any risky models anytime soon.

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut perhaps people need to look at the chance of it being sold elsewhere than Australia aswell. Remember we did the R&D..not the business case.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut perhaps people need to look at the chance of it being sold elsewhere than Australia aswell. Remember we did the R&D..not the business case.

Where does the Ranger sell... that the F-Series does not... that would be interested in such a machine?

Trust me, i would looooooooove for this to become reality but if they can't see a business case for a XR8 i can't see them seeing for a performance ranger and this would take alot more engineering work... I.E $$$.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Nikked

I think the japanese chased rugged reliabiliy rather then perfomance figures...well toyota anyway.

Haven't heard many complaints from hilux owners about the engines...except commonrails...

I assume you mean the 4 cylinder 3L TD? Pretty ordinary motor. Plagued with injector problems, and the diff's on those cars had problems too. My old man has a 2007 Hilux SR5 TD. It always had a horrible "pinging" sound from the engine, which was pre detonation caused by faulty injectors. Replaced under warranty at 45k, $9k job out of warranty. At 110k, just out of warranty, the rear diff went. $3k to fix. I think Toyota have fixed the injector problem now.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Where does the Ranger sell... that the F-Series does not... that would be interested in such a machine?

Trust me, i would looooooooove for this to become reality but if they can't see a business case for a XR8 i can't see them seeing for a performance ranger and this would take alot more engineering work... I.E $$$.

I agree...but its very easy to knock ideas and say there is no business case without actually exploring the possibilities (and usually the negativity is backed up with just as many loose facts as the reasoning for positive ideas).

Doesnt mean companies should release products with reckless abandon but at some point you have to spend money to make money.

If all cars where built with no pursuit of passion or enjoyment then world would be full of Toyota's..although even they have seen the light with the 86.

If you are looking at the $$ then look at the profit the US has announced, FoA could never fund such a program, but nor should it. Would it be expensive, perhaps, but not massively if the Ranger was engineering from the start with greater power plants in mind and generally the cars are over engineered a little bit. If it required new structure etc then yes, I can see how that would not make any sense.

[Ben73]

A v8 Ranger would be awesome.
Sure the diesels would sell in bigger numbers, but I know there are many people out there who love V8's.
Many manufactures still sell V8's in big numbers. V8's will still be around for many years to come.

If I had the choice of buying a ranger 4 or 5 cylinder diesel or a V8 petrol, I would go the V8

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Nissan has just sort of almost caught up with their 3L V6 diesel, but you're right; the Euro's were doing those figures in 2005. I did read something about BMW borrowing Toyotas hybrid tech in exchange for a couple diesel engines.

Isn't the Nissan V6 diesel a Renault engine? So its already a Euro.

Originally Posted by Polyal

Buuuuuuuuuuuuuuut perhaps people need to look at the chance of it being sold elsewhere than Australia aswell. Remember we did the R&D..not the business case.

But which countries the Ranger sells in would like a V8 version, doesn't sell in US or Europe, and I can't imagine too many asian countries having a need for V8 utes. Small diesels would be the norm there.

[SteveJH]

If the Ranger got a V8, it would be awesome to get the 4.4L V8 diesel.

In range rover spec it makes something like 250kw while still getting awesome fuel economy (less then an I6 falcon IIRC).

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Isn't the Nissan V6 diesel a Renault engine? So its already a Euro.


But which countries the Ranger sells in would like a V8 version, doesn't sell in US or Europe, and I can't imagine too many asian countries having a need for V8 utes. Small diesels would be the norm there.

NZ and South Africa??? I do admit the market is not huge, but not all your models have to be completely profitable (yes I know that sounds odd). How do you measure the lift it could give the brand and model? Its like advertising, sometimes its hard to directly correlate dollars spend into sales.

Also while Asian countries do historically have smaller cars and engines (assumption), with the growth of their economies etc surely that can change as they aspire to more "affluent" products. Im sure BMW, Merc et al will have V8's available with their cars in China/India etc.

Im not saying its the greatest idea in the world, but its not the worst either.

[FalconXV]

A 3.2 single cab Ranger RWD is a Performance Ranger.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Isn't the Nissan V6 diesel a Renault engine? So its already a Euro.


But which countries the Ranger sells in would like a V8 version, doesn't sell in US or Europe, and I can't imagine too many asian countries having a need for V8 utes. Small diesels would be the norm there.

Not strictly speaking. I believe it was a joint venture engine between the two companies. I take your point though, I should have said, "BMW/Mercedes/Audi were making the same, if not more power and torque from their 3L 6 cylinder diesel engines in 2005."

Sorry, I know this is slightly off topic.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Not strictly speaking. I believe it was a joint venture engine between the two companies. I take your point though, I should have said, "BMW/Mercedes/Audi were making the same, if not more power and torque from their 3L 6 cylinder diesel engines in 2005."

Sorry, I know this is slightly off topic.

I just looked it up and your right, it was a joint venture between Nissan and Renault. Renault have considerable diesel expertise so it would have been very useful for Nissan.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Ive mentioned this previously too. A V8 Ranger would be the ultimate, room of a Territory with a tray, and a V8 note and power. How is that a bad thing? It would be like a local version of the SVT Raptor minus the jumping etc.

There is not one other pickup with a V8 in Oz...I reckon it would munch SS and get the odl XR8 ute sales back.

Certainly worth a crack.

Or... just import the Raptor instead of making the same thing.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Not strictly speaking. I believe it was a joint venture engine between the two companies. I take your point though, I should have said, "BMW/Mercedes/Audi were making the same, if not more power and torque from their 3L 6 cylinder diesel engines in 2005."

Sorry, I know this is slightly off topic.

The Euro's make tonnes of power from turbo'd low capacity 4's 'n' 6's. Plenty nuff for a 'sporty ute'.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

Cannot see the fascination for a hotted up commercial vehicle . Even utes like Falcons and Commodores , no matte what you do they will always be a commercial vehicle .

i wanted a sports car, but don't need to lug around four empty seats. XR8 ute was perfect for me.

i think a top spec performance ranger would do ok

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Or... just import the Raptor instead of making the same thing.

Could you not say that for the entire Ranger range? Just use the F150...but alas we have a ranger and any F truck wont be here in a hurry.

[69Mach1]

With 580,000 F-Series trucks sold in the US in 2011, surely "One" Ford can afford the development costs during the next major revision to make some RHD versions. There is a market here for these big trucks and I am sure they would move a few thousand more locally and to other RHD markets if the price was right. As someone said earlier, there is nothing on the market here to compare.

[XR Martin]

From memory when Ford last sold the F250/F350 sales peaked at about 200/month. Thats like .5% of US sales, I cant see Ford wanting to invest in RHD production for such little return.

[fou_bleu]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Could you not say that for the entire Ranger range? Just use the F150...but alas we have a ranger and any F truck wont be here in a hurry.

AFF - "We want F-truck, but get Ranger!!!"

US Ford Forums - "We want Ranger, but get F-truck!!!"



IMO, an all-out 'performance' Ranger would be too risky at the moment, but if sales start to go through the roof and people are actually buying XLT's and Wildtrak's (they're way overpriced IMO) rather than base utes, perhaps something could be worth investigating. But until then...

[XR Martin]

I reckon it wouldnt hurt if FPV made up a prototype with a Miami and showed it off at the next Motor Show. It would be an Aussie version of the Lightning.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Nikked

I think the japanese chased rugged reliabiliy rather then perfomance figures...well toyota anyway.

Haven't heard many complaints from hilux owners about the engines...except commonrails...

guys at work call the toyota work utes GUT-LUX because they were underpowered in their opinion.