FG FPV GT Rspec vs VF HSV GTS by MOTOR Mag

[GTP534]

Both great lookers and 2 very fine automobiles there!! Enjoy both!

Mind letting me know what wheels/size/offsets that are fitted to the F6 please?

Cheers!

[Rodge]

Congrats mate.

What we need is a massive comparison test to be run at Phillip Island by one of the car magazines. Call it the last of the big sedan battles
Included should be F6, GT-P and R Spec
HSV R8 340 and GTS
Chrysler SRT8
Jaguar XFR
Mercedes-Benz E63 S
BMW M5

Wouldn't it be great to see them all measured against each other

On another note, I have been negotiating all week with BMW N.Z. on a 750i M Sport with a view to consolidate both my exxy cars into one. I got them down from $245,000 to $175,000 Kiwi drive away but I still think that's too much so have walked away. Bottom line is they're 75,000 pounds in the U.K. full retail which equates to $144,000 Kiwi and talking with my nephew in London several times this week nobody is paying anything like retail in the U.K. for the aging 7 series product at present. I offered $125,000 which is where I see it. They're completly uninterested in doing a fair and square deal on top end BMW product in this part of the world. I bleated loud and really long, harder than a lamb lost from its mother but they're just not interested. I suspect this arrogance is rooted in the corporate culture in at head office in Germany. How dare one of you underlingings in such a far flung place in the world ask for a fair deal for a mere i unit of our production....that sort of thing. opps, sorry to go off on a tangent.

Anyway, I'm getting much the same crap from HSV N.Z. with their pricing on the GTS.

Anyway...sorry to digress. Congrats Stike9, nice acqusition there, enjoy

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Bent8

Looking at the stock outputs on the HSV forums, the GTS is most likely making about 405kW at the motor (avg 316rwkw).

And that's after factoring in a higher than usual driveline power loss (big drive shafts and 9.9" diff)

Combined with an 1882kg kerb weight, the GTS has around 215kW/tonne.... compared to the R-Spec which has 209kW/tonne.

The HSV suffers from diminishing returns because of it's overall weight... in other words, a car that weighs 1000kg and makes 215kW is going to be faster than a car that makes 430kW and weighs 2 tonnes.

Thanks for the info on the RWKW 316 kW average. I notice that on your numbers the losses would be 22% and I think that would often be about right.
Dyno Dynamics though have been saying (at least to me) that a car like a Commodore gets around a 50 kW loss and I know that when I ran my Auto Turbo Falcon on one of their Dyno's, the software calculated the cars Flywheel power at just over 50 kW above the rear wheel figure. Of course the Supercharged HSV has a beefy transmission so perhaps the figure may be closer to 60 kW and if that's the case then we are looking at just around 376 kW in a car with a claimed 430 kW.
Of course it can be difficult to calculate true driveline losses for a number of reasons, but in my view slip on the rollers is a major cause of losses. Whenever I've had my cars power checked on Dyno's, I've always got the operators to run the engine to the cutout so that I could count the percentage of slip involved and the results ranged from practically no slip to 12% and if there is 12% slip then that alone will cause a 12% lower power figure and of course there can be other issues too. That said though , it seems to me that HSV's have excellent power down ability so losses could be minimal.
With that in mind it's worth considering the following:-
Back in 2008 Wheels tested the 375 kW, 7 litre naturally aspirated Manual W427 which is no lightweight (claimed 1874 kg) and it was able to achieve very similar acceleration times to the new Manual Supercharged car (tested in Wheels September 2013 issue) and importantly it's end speed was slightly faster (184 vs 183.2).
Likewise MOTOR got a higher end speed from the W427 car that they tested at the time (184.94 Vs 183.2 kph) and with limited grip the driver actually opted to start the run up an incline. These results in a car that has 55 less claimed kW's and fairly similar weight.
Also it's worth noting that in 2008 WHEELS were routinely testing with a passenger on board but about 18 months ago a staff member told me that they had changed to just having the driver on board.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Here are the pics you wanted me to post up for you.

Great pictures...AWESOME lineup!!

I still personally view that GTS in anything but black(that hides all the lines) as a very mashed potato look, front end espescially. F6 has nicer looking side skirts,mirrors,headlights,big air dam,rear wing,front q panel vent/badge/light.
GTS to ME only wins on stock wheels,front fog light openings although the drls look stupid tacked on where they are. The rear of the GTS I don't even want to go there ewwww.

But that's my opinion as in looks, so seeing as YOU have both your a lucky bloke

I still think your a lazy bum for not taking some quick measurements on both cars seating visual heights to put some truth to the rummers

[40RDT]

Wow must feel good to both those beasts, the calipers on the GTS look huge

[strik9]

mate the rear callipers on the gts are the same size as the front 6 piston brembo,s on the f6 . i don,t need to tell you how good the brakes on the gts are...

and the fronts on the gts look like there of a airplane. it really is quiet disturbing. i just want to take one off so i can feel how heavy it is.

i,m finding myself backing this car more. i,ve stopped counting how many fpv,s in a row i,ve had. you dont break me easy. i can tell you that. but i kept my f6 i love that bloody car . can,t beat turbo,s. but to have both i am blessed and trying to be humble. its very hard.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by strik9

mate the rear callipers on the gts are the same size as the front 6 piston brembo,s on the f6 . i don,t need to tell you how good the brakes on the gts are...

and the fronts on the gts look like there of a airplane. it really is quiet disturbing. i just want to take one off so i can feel how heavy it is.

i,m finding myself backing this car more. i,ve stopped counting how many fpv,s in a row i,ve had. you dont break me easy. i can tell you that. but i kept my f6 i love that bloody car . can,t beat turbo,s. but to have both i am blessed and trying to be humble. its very hard.

Im sure the brakes are awesome. I thought my brakes were good on my old f6 which had dba rotors and better pads, those brakes would be on totally different level haha. Between the brakes, adj suspension and driveline combo HSV have made a very capable drivers car thats for sure.

I hear you about the F6 too they are awesome cars especially with mods, they are too much fun on full boost

[Jymbo]

I currently own an F6 (black, auto) and have a GTS (white, auto) on order. When it arrives and I've thrown 1000km's on the clock I'll run some timed comparisons. I have a Racelogic Performance Box that I've used to check the improvements mods have made to the F6 over the years.
She currently runs at 350rwkw & sits on 275's at the rear. Should be an interesting test.

I'll get 0-60, 0-100 & 80-120.....and post back in a month or so when I've done it.

Already, the best I have gotten out of the F6 is 0-100 in 3.9. But with the 1ft rollout enabled (forgot to switch it off)....without it enabled...probably would be 4.1.
Keep in mind, this was with a passenger in the car on a country highway....

I know its not a stock vs stock comparison. But if I put my winter tune onto the F6 (roughly 300rwkw) it'll make for a pretty close power to weight shootout.

To finish off. I'll then pick either the Harrop or KPM mods out there and make the GTS pump out an extra 100kw and see how her times improve.

[strik9]

what i have noticed, my gts is stock( well atm i,m waiting for the w507 walkinshaw kit to come) my f6 is about 370rwkw, the f6 is quicker but not by alot. they seem to have about the same pickup but the f6 again is slightly stronger. staying on boost and pulling hard through all the gears seems the be the difference.

but i,m only going by a certain place that i do a speed trial on nothing official . but the f6 gets about 20km above the gts when i hit a certain cut of point for the speed trial.

falcon does feel its age a bit though while driving . e.g. feeling the tail shaft under heavy load .my f6,s i,ve had always seem to inherit this prob once modded. i,ve got super car coil overs and sway bars so handling is good though turn and point.

love the torque vectoring in the holden . just put it in the corner and plant your foot and round you go. holden feels strong like nothing will ever break driveline wise. but they did alot of changes there and it paid of as far as i,m concerned. brakes are a no brainer , just a tap pull you up in an instant. i have 6 piston brembos and 4 piston rears on the f6 they don,t come close.

ride is lower in the f6 seating ect( but it is dumped on its belly with 275 rears) find it more comfortable. i,m always trying to get my groove in the gts never feels quit right shuffle my hands around the steering wheel trying to get the comfy spot to cruise. i,m always tilted to the left in the gts reaching for the gears which puts me of centre for the heads up display.seats are easily better than the f6, but we all knew that.

if i had to compare the gts to a 335(which i,ve owned had 380rwkw) they are pretty close . gts would be better, brakes and the torque vectoring( can,t speak highly enough of it, its unreal) power wise they both pull like a supercharged v8 so would,nt be much different there. ( i am comparing them as gts vs tuned gt ) they pulled much the same prob around the same amount of nm torque anyway. it wasn't a gtp so the seats in the gt are only averange. both felt pretty solid as far as wanting to push them and not have any unwanted breakages .

only regret i have is, fpv did,nt pull there finger out and do a gth-o 335 with similar qualities of the gts and offer it around the same price. then i would,nt have had to jump ship and break my heavy line of fpvs i,ve owned. the new gt-f would,nt have cut it for me. won,t have enough tricks in the driveline like the gts ,its what really brings the gts alive and gives you driver performance

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by strik9

what i have noticed, my gts is stock( well atm i,m waiting for the w507 walkinshaw kit to come) my f6 is about 370rwkw, the f6 is quicker but not by alot. they seem to have about the same pickup but the f6 again is slightly stronger. staying on boost and pulling hard through all the gears seems the be the difference.

but i,m only going by a certain place that i do a speed trial on nothing official . but the f6 gets about 20km above the gts when i hit a certain cut of point for the speed trial.

falcon does feel its age a bit though while driving . e.g. feeling the tail shaft under heavy load .my f6,s i,ve had always seem to inherit this prob once modded. i,ve got super car coil overs and sway bars so handling is good though turn and point.

love the torque vectoring in the holden . just put it in the corner and plant your foot and round you go. holden feels strong like nothing will ever break driveline wise. but they did alot of changes there and it paid of as far as i,m concerned. brakes are a no brainer , just a tap pull you up in an instant. i have 6 piston brembos and 4 piston rears on the f6 they don,t come close.

ride is lower in the f6 seating ect( but it is dumped on its belly with 275 rears) find it more comfortable. i,m always trying to get my groove in the gts never feels quit right shuffle my hands around the steering wheel trying to get the comfy spot to cruise. i,m always tilted to the left in the gts reaching for the gears which puts me of centre for the heads up display.seats are easily better than the f6, but we all knew that.

if i had to compare the gts to a 335(which i,ve owned had 380rwkw) they are pretty close . gts would be better, brakes and the torque vectoring( can,t speak highly enough of it, its unreal) power wise they both pull like a supercharged v8 so would,nt be much different there. ( i am comparing them as gts vs tuned gt ) they pulled much the same prob around the same amount of nm torque anyway. it wasn't a gtp so the seats in the gt are only averange. both felt pretty solid as far as wanting to push them and not have any unwanted breakages .

only regret i have is, fpv did,nt pull there finger out and do a gth-o 335 with similar qualities of the gts and offer it around the same price. then i would,nt have had to jump ship and break my heavy line of fpvs i,ve owned. the new gt-f would,nt have cut it for me. won,t have enough tricks in the driveline like the gts ,its what really brings the gts alive and gives you driver performance

Its good to have someone on here that has first hand experience to make comparisons between the current FPV's and the new GTS, interesting that even stock the GTS's performance isnt much different to a tuned GT.

I went and had a look at one at a HSV dealership last week and the brakes are massive in person made by brembo's look tiny when I walked back to my car haha

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

and the brakes are massive in person made by brembo's look tiny when I walked back to my car haha

Lol we were leaning on my s1 au and looking at my neighbors gts brakes... As if the s1 brakes aren't puny enough next to a gts they look like they're of a go kart.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Jymbo

I currently own an F6 (black, auto) and have a GTS (white, auto) on order. When it arrives and I've thrown 1000km's on the clock I'll run some timed comparisons. I have a Racelogic Performance Box that I've used to check the improvements mods have made to the F6 over the years.
She currently runs at 350rwkw & sits on 275's at the rear. Should be an interesting test.

I'll get 0-60, 0-100 & 80-120.....and post back in a month or so when I've done it.

Already, the best I have gotten out of the F6 is 0-100 in 3.9. But with the 1ft rollout enabled (forgot to switch it off)....without it enabled...probably would be 4.1.
Keep in mind, this was with a passenger in the car on a country highway....

I know its not a stock vs stock comparison. But if I put my winter tune onto the F6 (roughly 300rwkw) it'll make for a pretty close power to weight shootout.

To finish off. I'll then pick either the Harrop or KPM mods out there and make the GTS pump out an extra 100kw and see how her times improve.

That's great if you could give us some times on the GTS. So far the the local magazine test times haven't been all that good, but I know from a Cadillac test overseas that the engine should have more in it than we have seen so far. Could you list the times in 10 kph increments so that we can see what the cars rolling acceleration is like. Also the temperature would be useful. They're a great tool aren't they.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Lol we were leaning on my s1 au and looking at my neighbors gts brakes... As if the s1 brakes aren't puny enough next to a gts they look like they're of a go kart.

Yeah they are crazy big every time I would look over the car I couldn't keep my eyes off the front brakes haha. The rear rotors are bigger than the brembo front rotors on the FPV's

[FPVS3]

Originally Posted by strik9

what i have noticed, my gts is stock( well atm i,m waiting for the w507 walkinshaw kit to come)

What do you think the Walkinshaw kit will give you? I haven't researched it. But would be interesting to see what kw the GTS can produce with work.
Seems to me the Miami is a unique motor (freakish?) that can produce a lot of power with moderate tweaking.
Saw an R-Spec recently getting work done, I assume it already had different headers, big bore, hi flow cats, tune, filter, injectors, pump and was getting a pulley kit and intercooler. Tuned out at 530fwkw on a hub dyno.

Would the GTS be capable of that especially with its 6.2 ltr motor?

[mcnews]

I wouldn't say the Ford engine is freakish. It is just high tech, although our version does miss out on the extra adjustable cam timing that the higher end American engines get which is a crying shame as it would I think presumably fill in some of the bottom end torque. Obviously the cylinder heads in our cars are very, very good though with how well it breathes up top, pity they don't rev another 1000rpm or so then they would be really be quite epic to drive.

Peak power dyno outputs mean very little unless you are chasing ultimate dragstrip performance etc. It has to be more about the total package throughout the rev range and how it drives etc.

The Holden engine is a little more old school in comparison and does it with capacity, but capacity always has its natural torque benefits etc.

[strik9]

walkinshaw kit is about 7-8 k gets you about 380-390rwkw . pulley, full exhaust and tune. i know there not rushing the kits and doing alot of research to get it best they can and prob would have better resale than if i threw and exhaust and a pulley on it. i could throw cams and all the crap at it , but 390rwkw is plenty for the road.

most 335 get that with just a tune. they are a fantastic engine. but you got to play the cards you got with what you have under the hood.

thing i,m really looking forward to in about a month, i have a 2014 supercharged 6.2 ltr raptor coming. thats around 480fwkw dont know what it gets to the wheels but thats going to be a freak.

anyone know if the 6.2 ltr ford engine is as good as the 5.o ltr.? havent really researched that side of things. can only hope its as good as the coyote .

[Rodge]

^^ Good write-up on the GTS mate. GT-F wouldn't have cut it for me either, (well under-cooked on tech), so no regretts about bailing but might have a look at one of the last GTS's.

[FPVS3]

Originally Posted by strik9

walkinshaw kit is about 7-8 k gets you about 380-390rwkw . pulley, full exhaust and tune. i know there not rushing the kits and doing alot of research to get it best they can and prob would have better resale than if i threw and exhaust and a pulley on it. i could throw cams and all the crap at it , but 390rwkw is plenty for the road.

most 335 get that with just a tune. they are a fantastic engine. but you got to play the cards you got with what you have under the hood.

thing i,m really looking forward to in about a month, i have a 2014 supercharged 6.2 ltr raptor coming. thats around 480fwkw dont know what it gets to the wheels but thats going to be a freak.

anyone know if the 6.2 ltr ford engine is as good as the 5.o ltr.? havent really researched that side of things. can only hope its as good as the coyote .

Thanks for the info mate, will be interesting for you.
I found what KPM reckon they could do for the GTS for now here.....

http://www.hsvforum.com.au/showthrea...-with-Warranty

More to come I guess......

[Jymbo]

Originally Posted by 2242100

That's great if you could give us some times on the GTS. So far the the local magazine test times haven't been all that good, but I know from a Cadillac test overseas that the engine should have more in it than we have seen so far. Could you list the times in 10 kph increments so that we can see what the cars rolling acceleration is like. Also the temperature would be useful. They're a great tool aren't they.

Yeah no problem.

I first bought the gizmo the same week I got the F6. Back in August '08. Luckily, back then my dad had a plane that lived at Tooradin airfield and the guys let me take the F6 onto the runway for some 1/4 mile runs. Although, I had one rule. No laying patches of rubber on the launch. But still, with a relatively tight engine and moderate launch it got 5.0 to the 100 and 13.0 on the qtr. So, about the same as what the mags were saying at the time.

I agree the GTS times have varied a lot. 4.7 down to 4.2 across the various mags.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Congrats mate.

What we need is a massive comparison test to be run at Phillip Island by one of the car magazines. Call it the last of the big sedan battles
Included should be F6, GT-P and R Spec
HSV R8 340 and GTS
Chrysler SRT8
Jaguar XFR
Mercedes-Benz E63 S
BMW M5

I know they wouldnt, but I'd like to see all the cars with similar tyres in the test. That would be a good guide to the true performance of the cars against one another.

[Rodge]

^^ Good point kypez. Jag doesn't do itself any favours by running Dunlop Sport Maxx tyres which are out of step with the calibre of the tyres fitted to the rest of that lot.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Rodge

^^ Good write-up on the GTS mate. GT-F wouldn't have cut it for me either, (well under-cooked on tech), so no regretts about bailing but might have a look at one of the last GTS's.

Means opening the wallet up Rodge, and what trade would you get on the 300C

[2242100]

Originally Posted by Rodge

^^ Good point kypez. Jag doesn't do itself any favours by running Dunlop Sport Maxx tyres which are out of step with the calibre of the tyres fitted to the rest of that lot.

Hi Rodge
I thought that you and others that have been posting on this thread, might be interested to know that EVO AUSTRALIA Magazine is expecting to get a manual HSV GTS to test in the next month.
Expect to see them putting something on their website and there may be something in the Magazine ( I don't know if you can get it in NZ).
This will be a new test car.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by XBGTFGGTP

Means opening the wallet up Rodge, and what trade would you get on the 300C

Probably worth it though. I see the May Autocar N.Z. has a good comparison between the GTS and a Mercedes-Benz C63. Good win for the GTS. 0-100 in 4.13 seconds, 80-120 in 2.29 and more importantly a full suite of tech to go with it. Its always been about the complete package for me mate and in the final analysis the new GTS will go down as a more complete and thus best ever Australian made car...Looks like all these years I backed the wrong team...(with FPV that is.).

Who knows what the SRT will be worth in two years but it was so cheap to start with for what is a very good car it won't matter if it drops by 40% or thereabouts. Good tax write off Too early to make any plans given I've only just changed but a GTS is on the radar for 2016 at this stage.
I will add that if HSV New Zealand had been more realistic with their pricing on the GTS I'd have one in the garage already. I can't see $117,000 Kiwi in it which is the best quote I got. At $100K Kiwi I'm keen

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Probably worth it though. I see the May Autocar N.Z. has a good comparison between the GTS and a Mercedes-Benz C63. Good win for the GTS. 0-100 in 4.13 seconds, 80-120 in 2.29 and more importantly a full suite of tech to go with it. Its always been about the complete package for me mate and in the final analysis the new GTS will go down as a more complete and thus best ever Australian made car...Looks like all these years I backed the wrong team...(with FPV that is.).

Who knows what the SRT will be worth in two years but it was so cheap to start with for what is a very good car it won't matter if it drops by 40% or thereabouts. Good tax write off Too early to make any plans given I've only just changed but a GTS is on the radar for 2016 at this stage.
I will add that if HSV New Zealand had been more realistic with their pricing on the GTS I'd have one in the garage already. I can't see $117,000 Kiwi in it which is the best quote I got. At $100K Kiwi I'm keen

0-100 in in 4.13 is quicker than they previously tested it isnt it? Same car?

[Iggle Piggle]

I'm over the whole "Jandals" thing but have to wonder how the Kiwis get such fast times. Be interesting if that mob get a hold of one of the GT-F that are heading to Un Zud

[FPVS3]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Probably worth it though. I see the May Autocar N.Z. has a good comparison between the GTS and a Mercedes-Benz C63. Good win for the GTS. 0-100 in 4.13 seconds, 80-120 in 2.29 and more importantly a full suite of tech to go with it. Its always been about the complete package for me mate and in the final analysis the new GTS will go down as a more complete and thus best ever Australian made car...Looks like all these years I backed the wrong team...(with FPV that is.).

Who knows what the SRT will be worth in two years but it was so cheap to start with for what is a very good car it won't matter if it drops by 40% or thereabouts. Good tax write off Too early to make any plans given I've only just changed but a GTS is on the radar for 2016 at this stage.
I will add that if HSV New Zealand had been more realistic with their pricing on the GTS I'd have one in the garage already. I can't see $117,000 Kiwi in it which is the best quote I got. At $100K Kiwi I'm keen

We could wait and see what performance enhancement gets out of the GTS Rodge then judge how good it is when the Miami engine has been so successful with tinkering. I did post a HSV 'site thing earlier on KPM showing work on the GTS brought it up to 520fwkw. Here it is again http://www.hsvforum.com.au/showthrea...-with-Warranty

I could only have a Falcon or derivative in my garage though.

[XBGTFGGTP]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Probably worth it though. I see the May Autocar N.Z. has a good comparison between the GTS and a Mercedes-Benz C63. Good win for the GTS. 0-100 in 4.13 seconds, 80-120 in 2.29 and more importantly a full suite of tech to go with it. Its always been about the complete package for me mate and in the final analysis the new GTS will go down as a more complete and thus best ever Australian made car...Looks like all these years I backed the wrong team...(with FPV that is.).

Who knows what the SRT will be worth in two years but it was so cheap to start with for what is a very good car it won't matter if it drops by 40% or thereabouts. Good tax write off Too early to make any plans given I've only just changed but a GTS is on the radar for 2016 at this stage.
I will add that if HSV New Zealand had been more realistic with their pricing on the GTS I'd have one in the garage already. I can't see $117,000 Kiwi in it which is the best quote I got. At $100K Kiwi I'm keen

I'm still waiting to gave a crack at 1 in the R-Spec, I'm putting better rubber on her which I think will make a world of difference.

Know a guy who was service manger at a Ford dealership then went to a Holden dealership. He thought the falcons were bad for warranty, but after working at Holden he said he wouldn't touch a crumble door.

[Rodge]

Hemi, Yeap, decent tyres make quite a difference...go with the Michelin Pilot Super Sports or Goodyear Asymmetic 2's like I had....you're a wealthy guy so i'd go with the Michelins despite them being a lot more expensive...absolutly incredible grip in the dry and i'm sure you'd really enjoy them....I know the same guy, small world eh.

GTS has a far more robust driveline...proper supportive seats e.t.c.e.t.c. the list goes on and on and on.

People were saying the Chrysler would be a heap of shyte and incredibly unreliable too....funny thing is its not, (early days though) and its not drinking oil like a fish like Wolfie was either...

Ritchie, hmmm, that looks tasty but the Walkingshaw 509 or is it 506 ? package with 900 nm's looks more attractive seeing as you have a long established name augmenting the HSV warranty. Thing is I reckon the driveline will be durable with 900 nm's in the HSV but OTOH good luck with your ZF transmission...

40RDT - Same car...those were pretty close to the times last time wern't they...engine may be a bit more run in.

[red_hotxr6]

That is one brilliant machine on that front cover of the magazine, pity they had to ruin it by putting a holden on it...