HSV GTS LSA lettuce tomato & special sauce on a sesame seed bun

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by timetaker

Hi

This is my first post.
The VF GTS has captured a lot of headlines lately and it will be a little sad when Ford has to hand the performance/power mantle to GMH.The GTS will be great value compared to the European competitors,which GMH are targeting.I hate to say it but it will be a level up on the GT in terms of performance as well as in price range.
I don't believe that Ford will counter with a higher performing GT,sure the next updated Falcon FPV will have more power and torque but not to the level of the GTS....it would be very costly!
One solution would be to shoe horn the 5.8L GT500 engine in the GT.However with such power(492 kw) and massive torque(854 nm)that significantly exceeds the LSA,the Falcon would require serious re engineering input....again too costly.
Also we need to be ready for any GTS vs GT YouTube clips.I expect a number of Holden supporters "sticking" it to the Fords which is understandable considering they've been habouring pent up frustration for a number of years.

Pretty sure the 5.8 is physically too big for the falcon anyway.
Best bet would be the rumoured next gen mustangs turbo coyote.... It will open a can of whoop *** on the lsa

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by timetaker

Hi

I don't believe that Ford will counter with a higher performing GT,sure the next updated Falcon FPV will have more power and torque but not to the level of the GTS....it would be very costly!

You are aware of the true power the FG Coyote makes already at the wheels? It's not massively off what the GTS will be pulling (that is assuming how HSV go about quoting actual figures and how much drive train loss the GTS will have, this would be similar drive train loss to the FG GT.)
The engine the GTS uses is a very pricey version I believe, someone may know what they cost just for an engine?

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Pretty sure the 5.8 is physically too big for the falcon anyway.
Best bet would be the rumoured next gen mustangs turbo coyote.... It will open a can of whoop *** on the lsa

Direct Injection on the current 5.0. I read that DI is expensive though, so maybe if they do this and match or exceed the GTS power figures they will price it similary as well, then the GS can get the power level that the current GT has leaving the GS to compete against the lower spec HSV models, which it will beat anyway so maybe not.
I'm hoping that they release a beefed up version of the F6 for the new Falcon, it's obvious that it will be the last of the straight sixes made here.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by nstg8a

Pretty sure the 5.8 is physically too big for the falcon anyway.
Best bet would be the rumoured next gen mustangs turbo coyote.... It will open a can of whoop *** on the lsa

The 5.8 is still based on the 5.4 so it should fit, but it would be a massive exercise to do so when it would be much simpler just to get more power out of the Miami package.

Needless to say they still don't have a drivetrain that gets the best out of the power they're making now

[satria]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

You are aware of the true power the FG Coyote makes already at the wheels? It's not massively off what the GTS will be pulling (that is assuming how HSV go about quoting actual figures and how much drive train loss the GTS will have, this would be similar drive train loss to the FG GT.)
The engine the GTS uses is a very pricey version I believe, someone may know what they cost just for an engine?

I'm not trying to sound negative here I'm asking out of pure curiosity, how much does a GT 335 actually make then? I always here about people saying it's way higher than the badge says, is there proof of this and can you give some examples? Also, is it every single one that rolls out of the factory that pulls these higher figures or are the odds just better if you buy a GT that you may get one with higher output compared to others?

I don't doubt it to be true, I'm just curious about how much higher it supposedly is. Especially when i plan to upgrade the family runabout to a nice new GT

Cheers

[Motorbreath310]

Has anyone driven and compared a normal GT to an R-Spec? Was it much better? I'd like to see FPV focus on the grip and handling side of things before cranking more power out. And fix the cars 'stance'. GT's on stock suspension remind me of gym junkies that skip leg day.

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by satria

I'm not trying to sound negative here I'm asking out of pure curiosity, how much does a GT 335 actually make then? I always here about people saying it's way higher than the badge says, is there proof of this and can you give some examples? Also, is it every single one that rolls out of the factory that pulls these higher figures or are the odds just better if you buy a GT that you may get one with higher output compared to others?

I don't doubt it to be true, I'm just curious about how much higher it supposedly is. Especially when i plan to upgrade the family runabout to a nice new GT

Cheers

Every thread I've seen or video I've seen with someone having chucked a new 335 GT on a dyno, the figures come back with it about 320-330kw at the wheels, which puts it at 400kw+ at the flywheel.

[nstg8a]

Originally Posted by satria

I'm not trying to sound negative here I'm asking out of pure curiosity, how much does a GT 335 actually make then? I always here about people saying it's way higher than the badge says, is there proof of this and can you give some examples? Also, is it every single one that rolls out of the factory that pulls these higher figures or are the odds just better if you buy a GT that you may get one with higher output compared to others?

I don't doubt it to be true, I'm just curious about how much higher it supposedly is. Especially when i plan to upgrade the family runabout to a nice new GT

Cheers

If you read some of the owners threads on here you will see that the 335s are dynoing around the 320kw mark on average, some higher some lower, but thereof thereabouts.
I think the street fords press car dynoed at something like 340ish kw, and that's all at the wheels, so the Miami as to be making upwards of 370kw from the factory.
Power wise the lsa isn't the massive jump its being made out to be by some.
Tech wise it is, but not power.

The interesting part is the tunability of the lsa, some say with the right mods its as easy to power up as the Miami, but going by how much emphasis is placed on cooling it in the gts then it will be curious to what effect heats oak will have on it compared to the non intercooled gt.

[peteypete]

two words, GLORIFIED DAEWOO.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by satria

I'm not trying to sound negative here I'm asking out of pure curiosity, how much does a GT 335 actually make then? I always here about people saying it's way higher than the badge says, is there proof of this and can you give some examples? Also, is it every single one that rolls out of the factory that pulls these higher figures or are the odds just better if you buy a GT that you may get one with higher output compared to others?

I don't doubt it to be true, I'm just curious about how much higher it supposedly is. Especially when i plan to upgrade the family runabout to a nice new GT

Cheers

This is my stockie having a run on the dyno a few weeks ago at LSX Garage to give you an idea of RWKW's ...... calculate that back to flywheel and the GTS (power only) isn't as jaw dropping as they lead you to believe. Driving it also confirms this

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by peteypete

two words, GLORIFIED DAEWOO.

Plenty of substance there, not even close.

[Road Games]

I hope this is NOT Off topic as the question was asked above ^^^

I have witnessed over 10 Standard Coyote GT's on the dyno (3x seperate workshops) and the least amount i have witnessed was 337rwkws they are quite the weapon cheers...

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

This is my stockie having a run on the dyno a few weeks ago at LSX Garage to give you an idea of RWKW's ...... calculate that back to flywheel and the GTS (power only) isn't as jaw dropping as they lead you to believe. Driving it also confirms this

image

I just don't understand why Ford understated the power figure to such a degree unless the test motor was a complete lemon.

The only potential reason I can think of is just to keep the nanny state off their backs, HSV have actually got some flack from the media (I'm pretty sure that's a sign of the apocalypse) for releasing a 400kw monster onto the Aussie roads.

[FPV8U]

Power v Power the GT will hold its own, but all the tech in the GTS between the MRC, Huge Brakes and Driver Aid Witchcraft should have the GTS far quicker on a track and consistantly.

[f6 boss]

This is my stockie having a run on the dyno a few weeks ago at LSX Garage to give you an idea of RWKW's ...... calculate that back to flywheel and the GTS (power only) isn't as jaw dropping as they lead you to believe. Driving it also confirms this

again just another dyno number, has anyone put the engine on a engine dyno then put it on a dyno run.. Here is what Simon from Nizpro wrote in the Nizpro Newsletter July 2011. Simon has had experience with engines on engine dyno's before..

FG Coyote SC 315/335
Since the release of the SC 5.0 GS and GT Falcons, rumours have been going into overdrive about power numbers. There have been some reports of chassis dyno numbers as high as 350 rwkW and that Ford had massively underrated the power output of the car. To say I was a little sceptical of this was an under-statement. OEM’s seldom underrate Horsepower, lets face it, why would they? It just makes a rod for their own back in years to come when newer models are released and need further improvement in power on their new models. Overrating would be a more likely scenario.

Secondly the 0-400 meter speeds that many car mags have published are around the 112 to 114 Mph mark; these simply don’t support power levels over the indicated badge on the boot lid.

Good and bad cars really don’t exist by very large margins these days, so it was a little interesting when I was asked on the Nizpro forum what numbers did I think we would see at the wheels of Ford’s new Coyote powered vehicles. However for regular readers of any information I publish in regards to a engine dyno versus a chassis dyno’s numbers go will be familiar with my 22% difference number.

For example the turbo F310 FPV Euro 4 makes 254 rwkW on our chassis dyno and guess what; add 22% and you get 309.88 kW. The FG XR6T 220 at the treads which equals 268.4 at the engine.

So when first asked what I thought the GS and GT would make I simply grabbed the calculator. Now I have waited until we've had a number of both 335 GT’s and 315 GT’s in so I could make sure that we don’t see abnormal cars, but no, they come in nearly kW perfect at 258 (314.7) for the GS and 274 rwkW (334.3) for the GT. So it appears in all cases, V8 and Turbo’s, Ford seem to have the decals worked out.

There are a couple of lessons here. For workshops with dyno’s, if you have a standard production car come in making more power at the wheels than the badge on the boot says, ring your dyno manufacturer and get it recalibrated, and secondly; for anyone that loves to think that OEM’s release super high output specials, then gags and ties their PR department up so they can’t tell you, think again.

[jpd80]

The Miami makes around 375 Kw for around eight seconds at a time thanks to transient overboost,
which is why many GT owners have been seeing 320-340 Kw at the rear wheels.

From my limited research, it appears that the LSA as fitted to the Cadillac CTS-V makes
around 495 kp or around 370 Kw at the rear wheels which is what you'd expect with an
intercooled supercharged engine of that size, that output is well within Miami's grasp.

[UberKnee]

Originally Posted by f6 boss

again just another dyno number, has anyone put the engine on a engine dyno then put it on a dyno run.. Here is what Simon from Nizpro wrote in the Nizpro Newsletter July 2011. Simon has had experience with engines on engine dyno's before..

FG Coyote SC 315/335
Since the release of the SC 5.0 GS and GT Falcons, rumours have been going into overdrive about power numbers. There have been some reports of chassis dyno numbers as high as 350 rwkW and that Ford had massively underrated the power output of the car. To say I was a little sceptical of this was an under-statement. OEM’s seldom underrate Horsepower, lets face it, why would they? It just makes a rod for their own back in years to come when newer models are released and need further improvement in power on their new models. Overrating would be a more likely scenario.

Secondly the 0-400 meter speeds that many car mags have published are around the 112 to 114 Mph mark; these simply don’t support power levels over the indicated badge on the boot lid.

Good and bad cars really don’t exist by very large margins these days, so it was a little interesting when I was asked on the Nizpro forum what numbers did I think we would see at the wheels of Ford’s new Coyote powered vehicles. However for regular readers of any information I publish in regards to a engine dyno versus a chassis dyno’s numbers go will be familiar with my 22% difference number.

For example the turbo F310 FPV Euro 4 makes 254 rwkW on our chassis dyno and guess what; add 22% and you get 309.88 kW. The FG XR6T 220 at the treads which equals 268.4 at the engine.

So when first asked what I thought the GS and GT would make I simply grabbed the calculator. Now I have waited until we've had a number of both 335 GT’s and 315 GT’s in so I could make sure that we don’t see abnormal cars, but no, they come in nearly kW perfect at 258 (314.7) for the GS and 274 rwkW (334.3) for the GT. So it appears in all cases, V8 and Turbo’s, Ford seem to have the decals worked out.

There are a couple of lessons here. For workshops with dyno’s, if you have a standard production car come in making more power at the wheels than the badge on the boot says, ring your dyno manufacturer and get it recalibrated, and secondly; for anyone that loves to think that OEM’s release super high output specials, then gags and ties their PR department up so they can’t tell you, think again.

So basically every dyno in the country is wrong. Not having a go at you here. The 0-400 speeds can simply be a result of the rest of the driveline. You can have all the power in the world, but end of the day these are family taxi's they're not going to have amazing transmissions, diffs, etc that can make use of all that power. They wont have super sticky tyres or hardcore track suspension that makes the most of what power they do or dont have.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The Miami makes around 375 Kw for around eight seconds at a time thanks to transient overboost,
which is why many GT owners have been seeing 320-340 Kw at the rear wheels.

From my limited research, it appears that the LSA as fitted to the Cadillac CTS-V makes
around 495 kp or around 370 Kw at the rear wheels which is what you'd expect with an
intercooled supercharged engine of that size, that output is well within Miami's grasp.

That make more sense and different to this below ... which is rubbish and if said by NIZPRO .... well just shows they have no idea! That many Dyno's cannot be wrong. OH .... except his? He is staking the times made by journo;s as a basis for his statement? I have seen how they are done by journos and they ain't real scientific let me tell you

I know dynos are not the be all and end and really should only be used for tuning purposes ..... but really?

Originally Posted by f6 boss

again just another dyno number, has anyone put the engine on a engine dyno then put it on a dyno run.. Here is what Simon from Nizpro wrote in the Nizpro Newsletter July 2011. Simon has had experience with engines on engine dyno's before..

Blah blah ........ .

Sorry ..... not shooting the messenger here f6 boss

[Pedro]

Shish ... what a dog. The rear valance tuck under the numberplate looks like a nappie.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by Pedro

Shish ... what a dog. The rear valance tuck under the numberplate looks like a nappie.

ha and the fronts a Hyundai elantra with a BMW grill!!!

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by f6 boss

again just another dyno number, has anyone put the engine on a engine dyno then put it on a dyno run.. Here is what Simon from Nizpro wrote in the Nizpro Newsletter July 2011. Simon has had experience with engines on engine dyno's before..

FG Coyote SC 315/335
Since the release of the SC 5.0 GS and GT Falcons, rumours have been going into overdrive about power numbers. There have been some reports of chassis dyno numbers as high as 350 rwkW and that Ford had massively underrated the power output of the car. To say I was a little sceptical of this was an under-statement. OEM’s seldom underrate Horsepower, lets face it, why would they? It just makes a rod for their own back in years to come when newer models are released and need further improvement in power on their new models. Overrating would be a more likely scenario.

Secondly the 0-400 meter speeds that many car mags have published are around the 112 to 114 Mph mark; these simply don’t support power levels over the indicated badge on the boot lid.

Good and bad cars really don’t exist by very large margins these days, so it was a little interesting when I was asked on the Nizpro forum what numbers did I think we would see at the wheels of Ford’s new Coyote powered vehicles. However for regular readers of any information I publish in regards to a engine dyno versus a chassis dyno’s numbers go will be familiar with my 22% difference number.

For example the turbo F310 FPV Euro 4 makes 254 rwkW on our chassis dyno and guess what; add 22% and you get 309.88 kW. The FG XR6T 220 at the treads which equals 268.4 at the engine.

So when first asked what I thought the GS and GT would make I simply grabbed the calculator. Now I have waited until we've had a number of both 335 GT’s and 315 GT’s in so I could make sure that we don’t see abnormal cars, but no, they come in nearly kW perfect at 258 (314.7) for the GS and 274 rwkW (334.3) for the GT. So it appears in all cases, V8 and Turbo’s, Ford seem to have the decals worked out.

There are a couple of lessons here. For workshops with dyno’s, if you have a standard production car come in making more power at the wheels than the badge on the boot says, ring your dyno manufacturer and get it recalibrated, and secondly; for anyone that loves to think that OEM’s release super high output specials, then gags and ties their PR department up so they can’t tell you, think again.

Simon has his maths wrong here. If you assume 22% drivetrain loss, then what you get is 78% of the power to the wheels. His maths suggests simply doing +22% rwkw to get your engine kW, which is wrong.

If you take his numbers as being 78% of engine power, you get the 100% figure by dividing rwkw by 0.78. His figures then become:

FG XR6T - 220rwkw/282 derived engine kw/270kw advertised
FG FPV F6 - 254rwkw/325 derived engine kw/310kw advertised
FG FPV GS - 258rwkw/330 derived engine kw/315kw advertised
FG FPV GT - 274rwkw/351 derived engine kw/335kw advertised

If Simons engine numbers are correct then his drivetrain loss calculation is wrong, which based on his numbers is closer to 18-19% loss.

[Mighty Reds]

I feel the same way about the GTS as I do the new vette, both cars will be monsters and great value for money but some styling issues have me a little underwhelmed.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

This is my stockie having a run on the dyno a few weeks ago at LSX Garage to give you an idea of RWKW's ...... calculate that back to flywheel and the GTS (power only) isn't as jaw dropping as they lead you to believe. Driving it also confirms this

image

Just letting you know, I flagged that video as inappropriate...





That sort of porn is for over 18's only!

[timetaker]

Originally Posted by jpd80

.................................................. .......
From my limited research, it appears that the LSA as fitted to the Cadillac CTS-V makes
around 495 kp or around 370 Kw at the rear wheels which is what you'd expect with an
intercooled supercharged engine of that size, that output is well within Miami's grasp.

I agree,370 kw @ rear wheels seems right,although doing some "research"I have also come across 345-355 kw ranges.
I thought I'd post a clip for interest,featuring a ZL1 Camaro(LSA) and GT500 on the dyno.
I have to say,the Mustang monsters the Camaro in power,torque and sound.Turn up your speakers!


http://youtu.be/yZBKBf8Zsjo

[Eaturbo]

Originally Posted by timetaker

I agree,370 kw @ rear wheels seems right,although doing some "research"I have also come across 345-355 kw ranges.
I thought I'd post a clip for interest,featuring a ZL1 Camaro(LSA) and GT500 on the dyno.
I have to say,the Mustang monsters the Camaro in power,torque and sound.Turn up your speakers!


http://youtu.be/yZBKBf8Zsjo

Man that mustang looks awesome. The engine must be a real work of art to be that much better than the Camaro's LSA. Still think the mustang styling is pure muscle car and the designer should be given an award for the simple yet clear design cues

[Road_Warrior]

Damn, that Shelby sounds angry!

[XRDeeze]

[devoGT]

This youtube video shows the stock GT only made 286rwkw, just doesn't add up when people on this forum are getting 330rwkw+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAYxTpCgHZo

[CSV_LS1]

If a GT runs 114mph down the quarter it doesn't matter what the dyno print out says if the GTS runs a 120mph pass lol.

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by devoGT

This youtube video shows the stock GT only made 286rwkw, just doesn't add up when people on this forum are getting 330rwkw+

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAYxTpCgHZo

heat and humidity effects car performance and dyno results. it is also why the best time too drive a car is early in the morning when its cool or late evening into the night. heat and humidity can effect performance believe it or not.

here an example http://forums.corvetteforum.com/c5-g...o-results.html



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