Toyota Kluger - Rolls during Wheels COTY

[JR.]

Originally Posted by Steffo

They've put the Toyota Hiace 6.0 LWB work van around a skid pad, slalom and race-track and it didn't roll-over. Hrm?

The only thing that proves is they're idiots with a death wish to start with. A Hiace is not designed to do ANY of those things, and it STILL isn't objective, scientific or repeatable...

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by JR.

The only thing that proves is they're idiots with a death wish to start with. A Hiace is not designed to do ANY of those things, and it STILL isn't objective, scientific or repeatable...

And the work van pulled it off. Your point?

http://youtube.com/watch?v=aZF8N9NItHI

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Every time I sit in and drive a Toyota vehicle I have less and less faith in the collective intelligence of the general public. They're dynamically awful. In some cases, downright dangerous.

Steffo, thanks for your usual opinion but not now, lets not degenerate this thread off the original topic

[aualright]

These tests do in many ways re-create emergency situations where a similar thing (dynamically) would occur. Yeah people aren't going to race around a track in their Territory or Kluger, but when a car pulls in front of you when you are doing 60kms you would hope the esp / dsc etc would do some of the driving for you as 99% of drivers wouldn't have the ability to recover the car. The last thing you would want is a rollover.

If anyone lives near Galston Gorge in Sydney, take a Territory Ghia through there and you'll appreciate the 'car' and the importance of its excellent handling, something it appears from these tests the Kluger isn't up to speed with.

****

[BJ]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I love it when objective testing proves me right. Toyota - an unsafe car manufacturer.

And one thing they failed to ad to the article was that the knob was going 180kph yes that's right 180kph on a dirt road and then decided to do a right hand turn on the dirt and the end result was his spectacular roll over. What would the Territory have done in the same situation???

Now that to me tells me this bloke is a bloody fool.

[drew`SEVNT5]

Originally Posted by BJ

And one thing they failed to ad to the article was that the knob was going 180kph yes that's right 180kph on a dirt road and then decided to do a right hand turn on the dirt and the end result was his spectacular roll over. What would the Territory have done in the same situation???

Now that to me tells me this bloke is a bloody fool.

got any sources for this? any proof?

[BJ]

Originally Posted by drew`SEVNT5

got any sources for this? any proof?

Yes i have. PM me.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by BJ

And one thing they failed to ad to the article was that the knob was going 180kph yes that's right 180kph on a dirt road and then decided to do a right hand turn on the dirt and the end result was his spectacular roll over. What would the Territory have done in the same situation???

Now that to me tells me this bloke is a bloody fool.

180kph seems excessive. Was this the speed the test was done at, or did the Kluger get special treatment?

[ClevlndStemer]

Originally Posted by BJ

Yes i have. PM me.

Why can't you post it for everyone to see???

[docjames]

1. Why would they lie about the speed? Oh, a conspiracy. Of course.
2. If you have proof, post it.
3. It is a real world situation - you're travelling on a dirt road in your awd, and you go too hot into a corner. The ESP is supposed to save you. Supposed to. Or a roo jumps out and you swerve.
4. The klugar would struggle to get to 180kph.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by docjames

4. The klugar would struggle to get to 180kph.

I doubt that - it's using the same engine from the Aurion.

As for everyone on here bagging Toyota's VSC/ESP, Wheel's Mag also tested the new 200 series Landcruiser, and had this to say:

Originally Posted by Wheel's mag review of the Landcruiser 200 Series during the 2008 COTY

The ABS also "reads" the road surface by using engine, wheel sensor and ESP G-sensors to determine whether a road sufrace is gravel, mud or bitumen. It then selects a program in the ABS software for the right amount of wheel slippage, rather than having one program to fit all surfaces. If it sounds too good to be true, take it from us that it works in the real world"

[JR.]

Originally Posted by docjames

1. Why would they lie about the speed? Oh, a conspiracy. Of course.

That's the easiest question of all to answer.

OHS / Public Liability / Corporate Insurance Cover.



As these press cars are being driven as part of the ACP employee's job, any injuries to any party come under the domain of corporate OHS. But like most insurance, this presupposes that you only have the absolute right to cover if you're within the law in your actions (eg: your car insurance wont cover you if you prang your car at a track day)

So the story MUST be spun by the magazine to deflect any blame from them (at least from a corporate perspective) to preserve their insurance cover and minimise and increase in premium that should occur from this type of accident.

Toyota will undoubtedly be frothing at the mouth over this behind the scenes (the not so subtle threat regarding telemetry not matching Wheels' version of the story in their response letter should show that), BUT, despite the potential damage to the relationship with a major advertiser, no corporate legal department would allow their mag to expose themselves to any sort of potential legal action by admitting any sort of fault in public or even worse by printing it in the magazine.

With Australia going litigation crazy like America, it would be just plain stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think for a second that Wheels or ACP have an anti-Toyota agenda here, but they HAVE to play CYA now for the sake of their insurance company.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by JR.

That's the easiest question of all to answer.

OHS / Public Liability / Corporate Insurance Cover.

Correct.

At the end of the day, Ged Bulmer has totalled one of Toyota's Klugers worth $65,000, on a private race track, pushing the car to it's limits and beyond.

Toyota has invited Wheels Magazine to re-test the vehicle under the correct ISO "Moose test" - which so far Wheel's has declined to do.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by JR.

That's the easiest question of all to answer.

OHS / Public Liability / Corporate Insurance Cover.



As these press cars are being driven as part of the ACP employee's job, any injuries to any party come under the domain of corporate OHS. But like most insurance, this presupposes that you only have the absolute right to cover if you're within the law in your actions (eg: your car insurance wont cover you if you prang your car at a track day)

So the story MUST be spun by the magazine to deflect any blame from them (at least from a corporate perspective) to preserve their insurance cover and minimise and increase in premium that should occur from this type of accident.

Toyota will undoubtedly be frothing at the mouth over this behind the scenes (the not so subtle threat regarding telemetry not matching Wheels' version of the story in their response letter should show that), BUT, despite the potential damage to the relationship with a major advertiser, no corporate legal department would allow their mag to expose themselves to any sort of potential legal action by admitting any sort of fault in public or even worse by printing it in the magazine.

With Australia going litigation crazy like America, it would be just plain stupid.

Don't get me wrong, I don't think for a second that Wheels or ACP have an anti-Toyota agenda here, but they HAVE to play CYA now for the sake of their insurance company.

Thats a great theory, but an insurance company is probably going to say "We'll take a look at the telemetry". And if it was investigated by a OHS authority they'll say. "We'll take a look at the telemetry". Lying about the incident isn't going to do wheels any favours.

Only Toyaota has something to gain by denying the incident.

[Dave_au]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Thats a great theory, but an insurance company is probably going to say "We'll take a look at the telemetry".

The insurance company would need Toyota's assistance to gain access to the telemetry, which would also create a new precedence for insurance companies.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

The insurance company would need Toyota's assistance to gain access to the telemetry, which would also create a new precedence for insurance companies.

There is a first for everything. If Toyota feel that the product was unfairly slandered because of sloppy journalisim, they would probably more than happy to show off the telemetry reading. Or they could take Wheels to court for defamation.

Although because the telemetry readout was taken by Toyota. It's inadmissable as evidence. As such would also be treated in such away by insurance companies etc.

[JR.]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

There is a first for everything. If Toyota feel that the product was unfairly slandered because of sloppy journalisim, they would probably more than happy to show off the telemetry reading. Or they could take Wheels to court for defamation.

That's a naive view of the situation. Toyota is a huge advertising client of ACP. I guarantee you from experience that when things like this happen BOTH parties want it swept under the rug as fast as possible. Neither ACP or Toyota are going to gain from a protracted legal battle.

Toyota get bad press, and ACP would lose millions in ad revenue. If it hadn't happened during the high profile COTY testing, it's a 50/50 bet the mag would have not mentioned the thing at all

Originally Posted by irlewy86

Although because the telemetry readout was taken by Toyota. It's inadmissable as evidence. As such would also be treated in such away by insurance companies etc.

Wrong. Like black box flight recorders, ECU's that record raw crash telemetry have been used in court cases both here and overseas. That is recognised scientific evidence and not subjective testimony - which in the days of CSI's and heavy reliance on forensic evidence - would carry enormous weight in any court action.

The may make white goods on wheels with less passion than a nun, but having seen the business from the other side of the lens, I'll take Toyota's word on this incident over Wheels any day of the week.

Remember that saying; "I read it on the internet so it must be true!" ??? Substitute the word "internet" with "Wheels" and you'll be getting close. Don't forget that it's produced by the same company that brings us the Holden sponsored best selling fiction monthly called Motor.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by JR.

That's a naive view of the situation. Toyota is a huge advertising client of ACP. I guarantee you from experience that when things like this happen BOTH parties want it swept under the rug as fast as possible. Neither ACP or Toyota are going to gain from a protracted legal battle.

Toyota get bad press, and ACP would lose millions in ad revenue. If it hadn't happened during the high profile COTY testing, it's a 50/50 bet the mag would have not mentioned the thing at all



Wrong. Like black box flight recorders, ECU's that record raw crash telemetry have been used in court cases both here and overseas. That is recognised scientific evidence and not subjective testimony - which in the days of CSI's and heavy reliance on forensic evidence - would carry enormous weight in any court action.

The may make white goods on wheels with less passion than a nun, but having seen the business from the other side of the lens, I'll take Toyota's word on this incident over Wheels any day of the week.

Remember that saying; "I read it on the internet so it must be true!" ??? Substitute the word "internet" with "Wheels" and you'll be getting close. Don't forget that it's produced by the same company that brings us the Holden sponsored best selling fiction monthly called Motor.

WRONG
A black box recorder is removed by the appropiate Civil authority and if they are unable to retrieve the data themselves, its returned to the black box recorder manufacturer. The pilot doesn't remove it neither does the airline, on their behalf and then say "oh look it wasn't pilot error at all". Because the vehicle is owned by Toyota they cant be presenting evidence they gathered as fact. Courts don't just hand over evidence to those standing on trial to look after.

Similiar situation with Toyota showing off the Kluger telemetry.

I never trust anybody who has something to gain by lying, in this instance Toyota.

If ACP were so worried about losing advertising dollars, why run the story? Because it was COTY special, I'm sure Toyota would have happily given a substitute vehicle and there was no need for Wheels to state "oh we rolled a car for the first time in 45 years, but that was our fault for trying too"

The story however goes more along the lines of "the dynamics aren't that good (realitive though, I'm sure its a much better handeling car then a 20 year old Landcruiser). We tried testing the ESP and rolled. Toyota also had very poor dirt road ABS 10 years ago but know that has changed."

The way I see it they rolled a Kluger and even if it was pushed beyond ISO limits if you actually sit down and read alot of ISO's you realise they don't mean jack """" in the real world.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by BJ

And one thing they failed to ad to the article was that the knob was going 180kph yes that's right 180kph on a dirt road and then decided to do a right hand turn on the dirt and the end result was his spectacular roll over. What would the Territory have done in the same situation???

Now that to me tells me this bloke is a bloody fool.

Sorry mate, that aint a 180kmh crash

[XR Martin]

This is more what a 180kmh crash looks like (graphic warning)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zzUn0yWwkMk

[moses]

Originally Posted by JR.

Wrong. Like black box flight recorders, ECU's that record raw crash telemetry have been used in court cases both here and overseas. That is recognised scientific evidence and not subjective testimony - which in the days of CSI's and heavy reliance on forensic evidence - would carry enormous weight in any court action.

Exactly. Most modern SRS modules record certain details at the time airbag or pretensioner deployment. Things like vehicle speed, brake application, accelerator position sensor, the amount of G forces sustained in the crash etc. So yes, they are used in certain cases where required.

Also, as far as people expecting an ESP/DSC/VDC system to save ones life in any and all situations, they may find themselves in a similar situation to the individual with brown pants from wheels magazine. Whilst an ESP system will invariably make a vehicle safer, even these systems cannot defy the laws of physics. Inertia can be difficult to overcome with a brake application here, or torque reduction there. It can be a case of too little too late.

For more info on ESP/DSC have a look here

http://www.bosch-esperience.com/uk/language1/index.html

[charlie200]

i cant understand why people are bagging fords and sticking up for toyotas on this forum. have they forgotten where they are

[Werd.]

Originally Posted by charlie200

i cant understand why people are bagging fords and sticking up for toyotas on this forum. have they forgotten where they are

No ones forgotten. People speak their mind regardless, and so they should. I'm not going to turn into a blue blooded fan-boy when a topic such as this pops up.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Sorry mate, that aint a 180kmh crash

Exactly, whoever reckons that was at 180kph is delusional, or works for Toyota. A 180 kph crash would have had that Kluger barrel rolling 10 times, not just tipping onto its side and sliding for 50 metres.

[irlewy86]

The pro toyota camp has gone quiet :

[charlie200]

Originally Posted by Werd.

No ones forgotten. People speak their mind regardless, and so they should. I'm not going to turn into a blue blooded fan-boy when a topic such as this pops up.

that is true but what im upset about is this thread is just about the kluger...no need to try and compare it with other vehicles

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Steffo

I love it when objective testing proves me right. Toyota - an unsafe car manufacturer.

Well thats just silly speak...

[JR.]

Originally Posted by irlewy86

The pro toyota camp has gone quiet :

No, the pro common sense camp has gone quiet. We get tired of trying to talk reason to idiots after a while...

[Silver Ghia]

I was recently reading that here in Vic they were talking about cheaper registration for vehicles equipped with ESP.

This example illustrates the absurdity of such a proposal, that ESP has shortcomings and is not the complete solution when a driver gets into trouble.

Introducing driver training in vehicle controllability in certain situations as part of licence training would be a much better solution. There is none of this at present.

[burnz]

i dont understand the problem.
he let the car go into a controled slide waiting for the esp to take over
and it failed, it was either off or proggramed wrong.
fix it, a general recall to the nearest dealer or softwear reflash when serviced next.