Will LPG see a new renaissance?

[Vesper Martini]

I mentioned Trucking in an earlier Post but IMO this is where LPG technology could be a real benefit, as the other emerging technology wont be able to deliver for this sector.


this is an article from 2019..

https://www.oilandgastoday.com.au/lp...e.%E2%80%9D%3F

[marty351]

The "experts" said the world was supposed to run out of oil sometime in the 80's/90's, but a steady and constant supply remains, but how much lithium and other rare earth elements remain for a world filled with EVs and solar/battery housing?
(also the cost to the environment and recyclability)

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by marty351

The "experts" said the world was supposed to run out of oil sometime in the 80's/90's, but a steady and constant supply remains, but how much lithium and other rare earth elements remain for a world filled with EVs and solar/battery housing?
(also the cost to the environment and recyclability)

Oil is still a finite product and in some areas is getting harder to extract and even get funding for to continue to do.

Batteries right now are using the rare earth materials but you'd be silly to think that is the only way to do it and that it will remain that way.

Batteries can be made of non rare earth materials but more importantly recycling techniques are showing very promising results that will significantly reduce the need to constantly mine for materials and in turn the cost of the batteries.

[Vesper Martini]

Sorry but lets dispel some myths here
There is plenty of Oil left. Venezuela alone has over 1000 years worth on its current reserves alone. and nobody is buying from them anyway.
There is no emerging Battery tech so earth minerals it is for now..
recycling batteries costs way too much.

so to me this Thread makes sense if anyone was serious about the environment

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Sorry but lets dispel some myths here
There is plenty of Oil left. Venezuela alone has over 1000 years worth on its current reserves alone. and nobody is buying from them anyway.
There is no emerging Battery tech so earth minerals it is for now..
recycling batteries costs way too much.

so to me this Thread makes sense if anyone was serious about the environment

Right, ok.

[Vesper Martini]

People read what they want to believe..

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

People read what they want to believe..

I see that.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by marty351

The "experts" said the world was supposed to run out of oil sometime in the 80's/90's, but a steady and constant supply remains, but how much lithium and other rare earth elements remain for a world filled with EVs and solar/battery housing?
(also the cost to the environment and recyclability)

China have apparently found what looks to be the worlds biggest supply of lithium close to Mt Everest. No doubt they will dig and up and destroy the environment to build so called green EV's. The irony.

That's all the world needs, China owning more of the worlds supply of lithium.

[Vesper Martini]

Google lithium mines in Tibet and see the destruction.

but as I say people only read what they want to believe.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

You kind of missed the point, and still basing your opinion on what currently out there with LPG.

The only compelling argument for ICE development is freight/aviation. The passenger car market has moved on. No amount of development will make it a worthwhile alternative to EV.

That rules out access to the majority of R&D funding.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Google lithium mines in Tibet and see the destruction.

Hence the research into sodium batteries. Plenty of salt water.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

China have apparently found what looks to be the worlds biggest supply of lithium close to Mt Everest. No doubt they will dig and up and destroy the environment to build so called green EV's. The irony.

That's all the world needs, China owning more of the worlds supply of lithium.

They're also super chummy with the Taliban, while the USA was too busy firing $40,000 missiles at $10 mud houses, China was cutting business deals with everyone.

https://theconversation.com/afghanis...-tap-it-166484

Turns out Afghanistan has over US $1T worth of lithium sitting around.

[MITCHAY]

No chance when manufacturers are shift towards hybrids and full EV. How high prices stay is anyone's guess but that they are not going to invest in LPG.

Can you even buy a factory LPG car these days? Last I recall of them was the Falcon EcoLPI and well they don't make them anymore

I remember my mates BA Ute on gas and **** me it was ****

[hackney]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

No chance when manufacturers are shift towards hybrids and full EV. How high prices stay is anyone's guess but that they are not going to invest in LPG.

Can you even buy a factory LPG car these days? Last I recall of them was the Falcon EcoLPI and well they don't make them anymore

I remember my mates BA Ute on gas and **** me it was ****

There are no more LPG cars manufactured any more.The Ecolpi Falcon was the last of the breed.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

I mentioned Trucking in an earlier Post but IMO this is where LPG technology could be a real benefit, as the other emerging technology wont be able to deliver for this sector.


this is an article from 2019..

https://www.oilandgastoday.com.au/lp...e.%E2%80%9D%3F

A company I drove for tried this on their Adel/Perth run on their B-Triples and Road Trains.

12 months later they removed the LPG tanks and went back to normal.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

A company I drove for tried this on their Adel/Perth run on their B-Triples and Road Trains.

12 months later they removed the LPG tanks and went back to normal.

In old skool diesels, introducing a small amount of gas into the intake, meant combustion started earlier and wider, and helped the diesel burn more effectively when injected. Meaning you could get the same bang from less diesel.

• Modern EFI diesels do the same thing with multiple injections.
• Modern Electronically Emission Controlled Diesels would likely be confused by the introduction of random gas
• I would imagine it was mostly of benefit when accelerating hard, probably less so when cruising
• Whilst the amount of gas used is small, can you imagine the time it would take to fill a decent sized LPG tank.
• The latest diesels add urea to control emissions. Any move back to gas would probably focus on Ammonia

[Franco Cozzo]

I've had a bit of a play with water methanol injection on diesels which does a similar thing you're talking about above, it acts as a catalyst and increases efficiency, burns more of the diesel that's injected and there was a noticeable power increase seen on the dyno.

Was using it as a band-aid fix as we didn't have a method of precisely controlling when we wanted more fuel, it was either more fuel everywhere or nothing.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Google lithium mines in Tibet and see the destruction.

but as I say people only read what they want to believe.

The overwhelming majority of China’s lithium comes from Western Australian mines,
the biggest resources in the world are in Bolivia which are in the form of brine reserves.

What’s really needed is now is to make battery makers responsible for the recycling of returned batteries,
lock them into return contracts and the responsibility for environmentally sound recycling, reuse or disposal.
If the government grew a set, they would send our annual 3,300 tonnes of waste batteries back to the
original Asian manufacturers to deal with and then see what the price of new batteries becomes..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

I've had a bit of a play with water methanol injection on diesels which does a similar thing you're talking about above, it acts as a catalyst and increases efficiency, burns more of the diesel that's injected and there was a noticeable power increase seen on the dyno.

Was using it as a band-aid fix as we didn't have a method of precisely controlling when we wanted more fuel, it was either more fuel everywhere or nothing.

Running diesels on ethanol is another alternative, one advantage of that is a common fuel source for passenger vehicles E85 that could mostly be produced from our massive sugarcane plantations in Queensland. Stop selling sugar abroad and start making more ethanol locally, they’d probably get a better price and more guaranteed return sales.

At least that way, we could keep most of our local fuel requirements locally produced and out of the hands of OPEC….

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Running diesels on ethanol is another alternative, one advantage of that is a common fuel source for passenger vehicles E85 that could mostly be produced from our massive sugarcane plantations in Queensland. Stop selling sugar abroad and start making more ethanol locally, they’d probably get a better price and more guaranteed return sales.

At least that way, we could keep most of our local fuel requirements locally produced and out of the hands of OPEC….

Completely agree, its a low hanging fruit option that the majority of the unleaded fleet could have easily retrofitted.

Its also significantly cleaner out the tail pipe and gives us some energy independence from the Middle East.

Though look at the quality of our political class, one type goes to Hawaii when the country is on fire, the other type refuses evacuation and stays in their capital city when surrounded by an occupation force trying to murder him and his family and inspires their entire population.

We've got the Hawaii ones

[Junkyard-Dog]

I'm at the point where I'm trying to work out whether or not I can jerry-rig a wood gasification set up to my BA.

Then again, I don't have a significant source of timber so this is a pointless post.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Running diesels on ethanol is another alternative, one advantage of that is a common fuel source for passenger vehicles E85 that could mostly be produced from our massive sugarcane plantations in Queensland. Stop selling sugar abroad and start making more ethanol locally, they’d probably get a better price and more guaranteed return sales.

The beauty of ethanol is that it can be made from just about any feedstock, including waste. In the USA I believe they use Corn.

Generally speaking, to use Ethanol in a Diesel engine, it either needs to be reacted with fatty acids to form esters (biodiesel)
The problem with large-scale production of biodiesel is that it requires a lot of cheap vegetable oil.

or needs to converted to an ether and reblended, to raise the Cetane rating to an acceptable level.
Whilst this can be made completely from Ethanol, the problem is that the resulting blend has none of the lubricating properties of diesel (so can't be used with injector pumps or mechanical injectors) and also has different solvent properties so requires different seals and gaskets.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

The beauty of ethanol is that it can be made from just about any feedstock, including waste. In the USA I believe they use Corn.

Generally speaking, to use Ethanol in a Diesel engine, it either needs to be reacted with fatty acids to form esters (biodiesel)
The problem with large-scale production of biodiesel is that it requires a lot of cheap vegetable oil.

or needs to converted to an ether and reblended, to raise the Cetane rating to an acceptable level.
Whilst this can be made completely from Ethanol, the problem is that the resulting blend has none of the lubricating properties of diesel (so can't be used with injector pumps or mechanical injectors) and also has different solvent properties so requires different seals and gaskets.

1. Corn is less efficient at ethanol production than Sugarcane or sugar beets
2. diesel can be made from either sunflower oil or rapeseed oil as large scale commercial crops.
3. Ethanol and diesel can be blended together to overcome lubrication issues
4. Yes ther are problems with using alternate fuel but other locations are advanced in their use.
5. It’s amazing how high fuel costs can sharpen fleet owners to alternatives that reduce running expenses, whatever the end up being…

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The overwhelming majority of China’s lithium comes from Western Australian mines,
the biggest resources in the world are in Bolivia which are in the form of brine reserves.

yes, I know. but what's that got to do with what I posted?

Originally Posted by jpd80

What’s really needed is now is to make battery makers responsible for the recycling of returned batteries,
lock them into return contracts and the responsibility for environmentally sound recycling, reuse or disposal.
If the government grew a set, they would send our annual 3,300 tonnes of waste batteries back to the
original Asian manufacturers to deal with and then see what the price of new batteries becomes..

sure but think about the added cost. we cant even recycle household waste properly here in Australia

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

A company I drove for tried this on their Adel/Perth run on their B-Triples and Road Trains.

12 months later they removed the LPG tanks and went back to normal.

that's no good, what was the reason?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

that's no good, what was the reason?

Nothing like the fuel savings they were hoping for.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Nothing like the fuel savings they were hoping for.

but there was a fuel saving? seems strange to remove all that expense if there was.

I know there have been no incentives but was there any testing to see how much cleaner they were running?

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

but there was a fuel saving? seems strange to remove all that expense if there was.

I know there have been no incentives but was there any testing to see how much cleaner they were running?

Ok if you want to be pedantic. They were hoping for a cost per km saving, they never got one.

Cleaner? It's a business, if they can save money and 'help the environment' it's a bonus and extra brownie points gained. But the main idea is to make more money.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Ok if you want to be pedantic. They were hoping for a cost per km saving, they never got one.

Cleaner? It's a business, if they can save money and 'help the environment' it's a bonus and extra brownie points gained. But the main idea is to make more money.

Sorry not meaning to be Pedantic.. But I guess there would be factors that it didn't work re post #46.

yes and agree its a business, a lot of them are doing it tough and wouldn't be using add blue for instance if it wasn't a requirement

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Sorry not meaning to be Pedantic.. But I guess there would be factors that it didn't work re post #46.

yes and agree its a business, a lot of them are doing it tough and wouldn't be using add blue for instance if it wasn't a requirement

I guess it just shows that people in business will try to lower costs but if alternatives like LPG ends up achieving no savings and add complexity, they’ll just go back to diesel. It must be frustrating to go to so much effort for almost no result.

My earlier comments regarding where China sources most of its lithium was intended to show that ther are loads of alternatives to mining near Everest but the Chinese basically couldn’t give a crap….

And chasing Asian battery makers to recycle lithium batteries was all about not repeating the current mess but I guess that horse is now bolting too..