Update, that VIC Burnley tunnel crash

[Keepleft]

Originally Posted by GK5766

Keepleft-
The gentleman on ACA that quoted that "Trucks should be banned from using right lanes" was he reffering to Interstate freeways or State roads?

I am assuming State roads, such as the domain tunnels and such.
Going by what ACA's topic of debate was about tonight anyway.

No real reason why the prohibition could not apply to 'some lengths' of state freeway class roads bearing three or more general traffic lanes. To act as a 'valve'. Such a prohibition would not apply "XX" kilometre length from a right hand ramp.

Things will improve with discipline, but it will take years for that to show as new 'ediucated' drivers some online.

NB - To further encourage folk in using the left lane, NSW will consider ending or 'dropping' the right-lane when reducing traffic lanes from three to two.

That would leave an unbroken left lane for a roads entire length, further encouraging keep-left behaviour. Atm; the right lane is unbroken nationally, yet we cannot use it always. Germany typically drops a motorway 'fast' (median) lane with typically a 700 metre taper. We use 500 metres in AUS generally.

[schmidty]

Originally Posted by blur1

what was the truck doing in the right lane anyway? :

Are you effing serious?

Because he has every right to be there, to move past slower moving traffic that is required by law, and through a basic, common courtesy to 'keep left unless overtaking'

People have this screwed up mentality that trucks are slow, dangerous, gutless and are 'in my way.' Tell you what, i get held up more, and given more of a hard time by cars that any truck i see. We're all very aware of each other, and work to try and help each other out on the radio if we see a danger that can be avoided, or a better way around roadworks or an accident, or if there is something on the road ahead. This communication allows you to be more prepared for various situations you may otherwise encounter as a suprise and have to take evasive action, or be held up. Car drivers are more involved in a massive free-for-all. Rarely do people make space around themselves, let other cars merge cleanly, stop to help someone broken down, it's more about being at the destination before everyone else, and if you've gotta push, shove, cut in or steam roll other road users to get there, more and more people will nowdays.

[The G6ET Spot]

The woman in the ACA car makes me laugh when she carries on that she could not change lanes at all. But if you watch the video,as soon as the accident occurs she moves into the middle lane almost immediately.Strange that!

[Bill_R]

Originally Posted by EB_5.0_WAGON

I personally have watched the video of the accident in the tunnel and I think the mercedes is at fault as he didnt indicate. I have just rewatched the accident on youtube a couple of times to check this fact.

If the mercedes didnt indicate then HOW THE HELL IS THE TRUCK DRIVER suppose to know he is changing lanes.
.

The Mercedes indicated. I didn't see it clearly on the U-tube video but saw the Merc *clearly* indicate (the rear indicator was flashing). The Merc pulled into the lane and the truck did so afterward. He might not have seen him but the truck was clearly at fault. The ACA car had absolutely nothing to do with this accident. It's an "accident" in that there was nothing intentional but it shows the blind spot in trucks that everyone needs to be aware of (both car and truck drivers). The general behavior of the truck driver is inexcusable. There is totally *no* need for anyone to tailgate. I'd say this about any driver on the road regardless of what the vehicle is. If a vehicle was behaving "poorly" on the road (there is no proof that the ACA vehicle was) then that is reason to allow *more* distance than the recommended 2 seconds (3 secs in NSW now).

The attitude of some of the truck drivers on ACA was pitiful. Excuses about being pushed for time etc just don't hold with me. It highlights a larger problem that needs to be addressed (take more trucks off the road and establish a more efficient rail freight system). Any driver regardless of what vehicle he is in that thinks he is superhuman and can defy the laws of Physics by sitting up the tail of another vehicle is deluded and needs to get off the road.

I really don't care if it was a truck or a car - this kiddy braindead mentality that you are king of the road needs to stop. It's an attitude problem.

[GXL078]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Im sorry but that's so totally wrong... what footage did you see? the police confirmed she was travelling on or near to the speed limit, she was WELL ahead of the truck entering the tunnel, in fact the truck was well in the back ground.. how could she hold up the truck unless he was going faster?

She saw the truck approaching and moved into the lane IN FRONT of it. There was a car in between them at first (small cream sedan??), which overtook her in the middle lane and disappeared. She deliberately stayed in the right lane as the truck approached, so as to hold it up, Im sorry, but I know what I saw

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

She saw the truck approaching and moved into the lane IN FRONT of it. There was a car in between them at first (small cream sedan??), which overtook her in the middle lane and disappeared. She deliberately stayed in the right lane as the truck approached, so as to hold it up, Im sorry, but I know what I saw

LOL, the truck was over 100m behind with a car in front of it when they entered the tunnel, she moved into the right lane to pass a slower car which sped up once she got beside it, she basically couldnt move left safely, in any event she was doing on or close to 80kph which is the tunnel limit, and the senior officer confirmed this, so its not like she could go any faster. The truck would have had to break the speed limit to over take her (again confirmed by those present).

[fast gt]

I'm sick of car drivers giving us truck drivers ******! Too many times have i driven down Portrush Rd and people in cars speed up to pull in front of me and then hit the brakes causing me to jump on the skids and go back 1 gear. That aca debate was ridiculous. They showed one lady doing less then a 100 in a 100 zone going down a hilll - of course the truck driver is going to end up on her bumper. They also only put a camera in a car. To be fair, the show should have filmed footage from the cab of a truck, showing what truck drivers deal with on a day to day basis just trying to carry out their jobs. We are just trying to be professionals in an environment made unprofessional by the idiot drivers on the road!

[Silver Ghia]

Truck driver did what 95% of every other driver, car or truck does, starts indicating as he turns the steering wheel.

Most useless thing on a vehicle, and just confuses everyone at a roundabout. When are they going to have TV ads to educate drivers on correct use of indicators instead of the stupid speed ads?

And again, why did the truck driver go straight back into the RH lane after hitting the Merc? Seems like he did see him but didnt realise it was still in front of him.

There are many types of truck (and car) drivers on the roads. The ones I respect most are those that drive the Ford C Triples between Geelong and Broady. They drive immaculately, keep left except when overtaking, behave themselves and these are the ones that are the true professionals. Other truck (and car) drivers should follow their example.

I drive a fair bit each morning and night along the freeways amongst cars and trucks, I too shudder at what some cars and trucks get up to (I have been driving over 30 years and have driven semis in the past). I have noticed lately that the discipline amongst truck drivers has been a lot better since the Burnley tunnel incident, however most still seem to drive in the second from the right most lane at whatever speed, fast or slow. When entering the freeway regardless of amount of traffic, they still make a beeline for this lane also.

There is no winner in this debate. Only that I hope both car and truck drivers become better educated in their driving manners, and respect eachothers presence more on the roads. And that there is better thought put into the design of freeway lanes and how they merge at entrys and exits, to avoid unnecessary lane changing. The lanes also seem too narrow here (seem much wider in UK), which would tend to make trucks appear more intimidating.

[T_Terror]

Trucks commonly drive in the right lane because they ARE overtaking.

50-70% of traffic sits BELOW the speed limit in my 3-5 hours p/day driving experience with plenty of loons choosing to go on their lesiurely drive in the right lane.

The woman was obviously retarded as she chose to stay in the trucks lane and block him, ive never come across a tailgater or any sort of nutter because i give way when i see that people are moving faster than i am.

I know its been said, but driver etiquette and mindset are the key to safer roads, not banned lane changes or heavier penalties.

[Laminge]

You hit the nail on the head

driver etiquette and mindset are the key to safer roads, not banned lane changes or heavier penalties.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

My Pursuit has a massive blind spot on the right hand side, just behind the B Pillar as do most cars........left hand exterior rear view mirrors should give a clear view down the left side of a car if adjusted correctly..and used in conjunction with the interior rear view mirror....something some car drivers have trouble managing.

I bet the truck driver DID look and DIDNT see the car, as it WAS in his blind spot as he was changing lanes.

You obviously havent been in a large truck or HAVE NO IDEA what it is like to see down the left just below the passenger door ??

Agreed 100% cam on all counts.

A simple head check by the Merc driver would have stopped all this from happening, i always do, especially driving in Melbourne.

Fault on ACA driver (What a disgrace, your scared of the track, Get the F$#$ out of the Right lane you idiot!!!) & Mercedes driver.

Truckie made a mistake, but the accident was far from all is fault.

Originally Posted by Laminge

You hit the nail on the head

Good luck finding that on City or evan country roads.

[XRQTR]

Again the MB driver stopped indicating early, too early he barely had a wheel over the line.

But more importantly the biggest hole in Tasha's whinge is about her having nowhere to go, if this was true then why did both the truck and the MB drivers choose the centre lane. In particualr why would someone who is obviously travelling faster than her choose another lane unless it was actually and in fact clear, a fact which she demonstartes by moving into this lane after the collision.

Also early on in the original story she had more than enough room to move out of the way of the truck if it was as much of an issue for her as she says it was. Watch it again and see just how much room she had to move over, everytime she started to cry foul about space you would see a lot of it to her left but then the editor would sitch to another amgle, just watch it again.
here

Just because someone is not physically involved in an accident does not mean that they are not responsible for the causing of it.

[clontarf_x]

I can vouch for the truckie suffering from the blind spot which is exactly where the merc was when the truck driver wanted to change lanes (evidently to get around the ACA vehicle). I worked at freo container depo for a looooong time, and not a lot of the trucks out there have peeper windows. They are very important...

The merc and the truckie had a plain and honest accident. Merc wouldn't of known the truckie was going to change lanes as the truck had already started moving over before indicating, *and* was in mercs blind spot (being a car driver, merc probably didnt check their blind spot). truckie therefore changed into what he thought was a clear lane and obviously found out the hard way it wasn't.

completely irresponsible for the supposedly "terrified of trucks" woman to be sitting IN FRONT OF THE DAMN THING SHE IS TERRIFIED OF in the first place, and secondly for not moving out of the right hand lane... even here in WA with our more relaxed road rules education, the basic moron knows not to sit in the RHL...

[NudgE^SIKBRO]

OK well just to proove a point about how poorly people drive im going to take my video camera out with me in the truck tomorrow (if i remember) and attach it to the dash... then we can see what road users are really like... and just a note to those of you who have never driven a truck... by all means voice your opinion BUT MAKE SURE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT... just remember... I too drive a car... you dont drive a truck

[rodderz]

Originally Posted by schmidty

Tell you what, i get held up more, and given more of a hard time by cars that any truck i see.

Have to agree with that Schmidty...I also drove a truck for 7 years and some people I'm convinced have no idea about other road users. It's either they drive along without a care in the world about vehicles around them, travelling slow or cutting in when you leave a safe gap when they should know all too well that trucks take longer to stop.

They seem to think "lets get in front of the truck, he's slow"...then once passed they start driving like Miss Daisy or brake at a late moment forgetting about what's behind, or realising the truck is still there.

They need driver education badly, not just to reduce road tolls but also to improve respect out on the road too

[wodahs]

Originally Posted by clontarf_x

I can vouch for the truckie suffering from the blind spot which is exactly where the merc was when the truck driver wanted to change lanes (evidently to get around the ACA vehicle). I worked at freo container depo for a looooong time, and not a lot of the trucks out there have peeper windows. They are very important...

this is one of the trucks that ive driven
and as you can see no peeper windows and plenty of blind spots
basicaly if theres a car in the lane next to you you cant see it unless its far enough in front of you or back far enough to see in the mirror , two lanes over can be just as bad

[Riksta]

Dammit, I'm getting fascinated by all this now, but can't view the following two links that were posted purely because I choose a better product than Internet Explorer.

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Here’s the link to the truck story.

http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au...8-b9fc60a09090

Here’s the Mercedes story.

http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au...7-A52A2A686481

Just a warning to Firefox users!

[Bill_R]

Originally Posted by wodahs

this is one of the trucks that ive driven
and as you can see no peeper windows and plenty of blind spots
basicaly if theres a car in the lane next to you you cant see it unless its far enough in front of you or back far enough to see in the mirror , two lanes over can be just as bad

Video Cameras! In this day and age it wouldn't be too difficult to fit them. Actually, it would be a good market.

[4Vman]

Seems like there is an issue here that hasnt been throroughly considered or made allowance for: The Blind spot on Trucks.
Surely there must be an Aust std for visibility from the drivers position however by todays standards it worrys me that there is a blind spot big enough to fit a large car in just forward of the front axle on some trucks... If this is the case it seems logical to expect the truck driver to know this (NOT car drivers FFS!!) and make extra allowance for it in their driving behaviour.. a brain lapse or "rush of blood" as is the case here could have fatal concequences.
Maybe there needs to be more done with truck design to overcome this too?
In any event NO Driver should pull into the left lane untill they are 100% sure its clear.
If they can't be 100% confident then either the truck is a safety risk or the driver is a safety risk..
Its also frightening to hear some drivers use productivity as an excuse for priority over safety and common sense..

[Ringo]

Geees isn't this just the way so many accidents happen.

Someone does something stoopid which causes others to do something stoopid

Which catches someone unawares and they react.....causing accident

I 1.5 million times agree with the comments by T Terror

[I]"I know its been said, but driver etiquette and mindset are the key to safer roads, not banned lane changes or heavier penalties."

Altering the penalties will not fix bad behaviour or poor road user atittudes. There is a system for road users already in place - If you have a license your supposed to know it (license testing is another thread) and if everyone followed it correctly there would never be an accident.

Bloody scary how quickly it happened though wasn't it? Within a nano second it has gone from being a close call to beyond repair because the merc driver becomes a passenger.....this real footage is more scary than TAC contrived commercials

[GXL078]

Some older truck have little windows down low on the doors to make up for some of that "blind spot"

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by xcgxl

Some older truck have little windows down low on the doors to make up for some of that "blind spot"

Yep, some trucks are designed with extra windows down low and extra mirrors aimed at the blind spot too. "IF" some dont have them then they should... its part of safety and driver responsibility.

[Thunder]

You know, after all the chatter that has gone around about this issue, its clear to me that different drivers have different priorities (obviously.....we are not all the same now are we?).

This accident video generates an opinion from everyone, and everyones gives their 2 cents (we all deserve an opinion).

IMHO i think some people miss the important part and dwell on pointless arguments.

For instance, there could of been any number of reasons for why the truck was in the rightlane/middle lane/left lane ...correct?. There could also be many reasons to why the woman was in right lane doing any speed (instant mechanical problem/medical emergency etc). But these trivial points did not cause the accident.

The most frightning point was the admittance of the truck driver that:-

1. He did not notice the merc before he changed lanes....and

2. He did not notice the merc when he hit it......and

3. He didn't even noticed a merc wrapped around the front of him....and

4. He did NOT stop because of the accident.....he only stopped because he heard his tyres squeeling.

IS THIS NOT the most important part of the crash people????????????

Come on fellas, you got to admit that its freaking scary and terribly un-reasuring to drive cars on the same roads as these trucks, when truck drivers, by their own admittance cant see you.

You all heard the ACA debate and heard ALL the truckies claiming that "because they sit so high, they can see better". Obviously, thats not true in this case.

Nit-picking at all the smaller issues (the woman, merc, ACA, tunnel, right lane, left lane etc) wont hide the fact that the truckie screwed up in this instance, BIG TIME.

Now, i ask all you truckies this:-

-If you drive a truck and you cant see whats next to you (either right or left lane) are you still going to risk merging over and possibly creating a fatality?

You have to admit that too many truckies "merge with hope" and assume cars will get out of their way because they are "big and mean" and deseve to dominate the road.

[MeLLy]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Geez, I’m glad you’re such an expert. :

In that case, it’s also a good reason for di*khead car drivers to do a head check before changing lanes to their right.

nice to see your such an expert to, obviously the driver of the mercedes did a head check quickly because the truck entered into the lane maybe a few seconds after him & correctly when the mercedes driver did his head check no1 was in that lane

[troppo]

There could also be many reasons to why the woman was in right lane doing any speed (instant mechanical problem/medical emergency etc).

Firstly, there are only 2 reasons to be in the right lane:
1. Overtaking
2. Turning right.
If you're not doing either of those two things, you have no business being in the right lane. This is law on some roads above specific speed limits or where signage applies but should be taught as common courtesy on any multi-lane road...commonly known as "keep left".

Secondly, an instant mechanical problem should be responded to by immediately pulling over to the left....Medical emergency, well that's a legitimate reason for speeding and even more reason why you shouldn't sit in the right lane "even though you are doing the speed limit". That's a crap argument....who are you to decide to hold someone up without knowing why they are in a hurry. And when you consider you have to blatanly break another law (fail to keep left) in order to be a vigilante speed enforcer, it really does make you a first-class hypocrite. If you want to enforce speed limits, head on down to the police acadamy and sign up....until then, get the f$%k left.

Thirdly, I don't know whether it's all the time, but all the cities I've ever lived in, generally speaking the right lane always travels a bit over the speed limit. Human nature dictates that if a margin for error is given, people will take it. Speeding fines kick in at a margin above the limit and although that margin is decreasing, people will always try to push it. The point here being, if you don't intend to keep up with the flow, then don't stay in the lane for extended periods (1.6 km of tunnel for instance) and hold up traffic that does.

Onto the footage....
The first shot back (well before the tunnel) from the 4wd shows her in the middle lane. The next shot back she's gone over to the right lane and shows what appears to be a Toll truck moving up. Next one she's back in the middle and being overtaken by said Toll truck. Then she jumps back in the right after being overtaken so that she's in the right lane before the tunnel. She has no reason to move into the right lane at that point, except as an exercise in frustrating other road users. Clearly, her own (middle) lane in front of her was clear, as demonstrated by the fact that the car behind her overtook her after she moved over. It seems he was a bit frustrated himself at having been blocked by the ACA precision driving team in both middle and left lanes busily filming each other...as they have been doing for the last few km...

Then she enters the tunnel. Watch carefully now...she says "I'm doing just under the speed limit" then theres a pause while she accelerates, then she says " now I'm going 80". The acceleration up to the speed limit is obvious as she pulls away from the second film crew in the wagon. So, she's in the tunnel doing the speed limit in the right lane and she decides (or is instructed by ACA?) that this is where she's going to make her stand against speeding trucks, which was the whole purpose of the exercise. This is demonstrated by the fact she ignored several opportunities over the 1.6 km to move left, and further compounded by the fact that the film crew in the second wagon had no trouble keeping pace in the left lane until just before the crash. Clearly she could've chosen the left lane and done her 80k's for almost the whole tunnel (it's the merc who actually pulls out as that lane comes up behind the first slow moving vehicle, which is the truck the second film crew gets stuck behind) but all her camera would've got there would be the other ACA film crew.....boring. No, she decided (and Martin encouraged her) that she was going to do the speed limit in the right lane and to hell with anyone who wants to get past because dammit, they shouldn't be trying even if it is just to get a bit of momentum for the uphill side....

This womans behaviour and comments is symptomatic of a control freak in action. She's insecure because she can't control how big the gap behind her is and it causes her to panic. She needs to learn that unless she is in reverse, it doesn't matter whats behind her. Her job while driving is to worry about whats in front of her, accept that the gap in front is the only one she can control, and let the person behind do the same. ACA just need shooting.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by Thunder

Now, i ask all you truckies this:-

-If you drive a truck and you cant see whats next to you (either right or left lane) are you still going to risk merging over and possibly creating a fatality?

Yes I will and so will every other driver on here and out their, next time you are driving take note of one of the most important things on a truck, and for that matter a car, the indicator.

The majority of truck drivers actually indicate for longer than is required, why, simple because we all know that car drivers will still try to get in your way. No doubt they will claim not to have seen the indicator amd this for them is a good enough reason that the driver of the truck is at fault.

I have put LED indicators on to the sides of the head board of my truck, when I first got it I would always notice, women in particular did not take notice of the indicators already on the truck. I would have to actually move over towards them before they would actually notice that I am indicating to merge into the lane, otherwise they would sit their right next to me not allowing me access to the lane.

Look at many of the trucks out on the roads these days and you will no doubt see an array of indicators hanging all over the truck bodies and trailers. Yet most drivers still either fail to notice or in some cases fail to care that something much bigger and heavier than them is moving into the same lane, so it is neither the problem nor for that matter the fault of the majority of truck drievrs that people in cars choose to be either arrogant or blind.

You have to admit that too many truckies "merge with hope" and assume cars will get out of their way because they are "big and mean" and deseve to dominate the road.

Ye, we all do, we merge with the hope that some richard cranium in a car doesn't decide that because he can do it quicker he tries to get in under us with the hope that we might see them and just swing anything up to 70 or 80 tonnes out of there way so that they can go on being a moron.

The number of cars I have had as you put it "merging with hope" and I'm sure just about anyone else here that drives any kind of truck would far exceed the number of truck drivers that would do it at the most stupid of times.

Yes there are cowboy truck drivers out their, no one denies that, but when it comes to stupid behaviour on our roads cars are a much greater contributor to the statistics than trucks will ever be.

[Thunder]

Troppo, i loved your response. But can you just answer this simple question that i asked on my post that you replyed to.

Originally Posted by Thunder

Now, i ask all you truckies this:-

-If you drive a truck and you cant see whats next to you (either right or left lane) are you still going to risk merging over and possibly creating a fatality?

I will say it again. I understand the frustration in being held up by slower drivers in the overtaking lane, but i WONT BLAME THEM if i fail to overtake properly and crash into someone else who "i did not see".

My overtaking is the responsibility of me....not the slower driver.

Your are very critical on my point abuot her being in the "wrong" lane.....why arent you as critical on trucks changing lanes when they cant see where they are going.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

The majority of truck drivers actually indicate for longer than is required, why, simple because we all know that car drivers will still try to get in your way....

Did the truck driver in the tunnel indicate long enough? Did he?

This is my point. You guys have missed the main point of this thread!

Whats the point of the thread i hear you ask? Well look at post #1. Its about pointing the finger at who was to blame for the crash in the tunnel on ACA.

You guys are bringing to this discusion your "baggage" and are missing the point. I have no doubt that morons in cars are doing you a bigger injustice on the roads than what you do to them. But in this case....of this story....of this ACA fotage.......as you said XRQT, did the truckie indicate long enough before he moved over?

[Unco]

excellent response, troppo. i totally agree with everything you posted... i just didn't have the patience to type it out in such detail.

also, XRQTR is on the ball. once you've driven a truck you'll understand that if a truck has his blinker on and wants to change lanes, it is for a very good reason. some of these trucks require a lot of distance to gain momentum and it is common courtesy to give way to them even if it slows you down a bit. a car can easily overtake a truck later on, but once a truck has lost momentum it will take him AGES to get up to the desired speed again.

as for 'hopeful' lane changing. come on, trucks are not the only ones who do it.

[Thunder]

Originally Posted by Unco

....as for 'hopeful' lane changing. come on, trucks are not the only ones who do it.

So what was the truckie in the tunnel hopeful of when he turned without giving enough indication? Watch the video again, and you will see him move over without indicating appropriatly.