NSW P-Plater restrictions - part two.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

I have no problem with the young, its the know-it-alls, the ignorant, and the unthinking, that I dispise. Good thing we are keeping them out of high powered vehicles. :

yes i agree with keeping them out of high powered cars, but from what i have gathered from reading most of your posts you seem to have a problem with all young drivers in general, well i can tell not all of us are like that, yes i see d!ckhead p platers all the time as well but i also see alot of old people just as bad in their merc's, bmw's porches and also you have to remember young ppl arn't as rich as the older folk, and not many have high powered cars and if they do its more then likely their parents bought it for them. i don't know to many or any really young ppl that have high powered cars, most of them cruise around in lasers and corollas cuz thats all they can afford.
that is all

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

What exactly can't you understand about that post? Everytime you can't be bothered rebutting something I say you just fall back on immature personal attacks, grow up. Passenger restrictions arn't a bad idea but I don't know if 4 idiots in one car is worse than 4 idiots in 2 different cars travelling together.

That wasn't a personal attack, what were you trying to make say, the sentance makes no sense.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

I don't know if 4 idiots in one car is worse than 4 idiots in 2 different cars travelling together.

exactly, or 4 idiots in 4 cars on the highway....i'll let you think on what could happen

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

exactly, or 4 idiots in 4 cars on the highway....i'll let you think on what could happen

All idiot will not crash at the same moment, work it out!
There will even be another car about to call the Ambos.... How the hell can anyone hope to learn or hone road skill in a packed car?

bored with this now... those who think they know it all are just telling the world they are unwilling to learn.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

How the hell can anyone hope to learn or hone road skill in a packed car?

so you would rather have 'more young hoons' on the road?

Alright then i wont argue with that...LOL
also you might have alot of experience driving, but you really lack experience in common knowledge. judging by that statement.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so you would rather have 'more young hoons' on the road?

Alright then i wont argue with that...LOL

Speaking from the perspective of being that age (17), and what so many people I know are like.. he's right. The less passengers the better. One car + four young idiots = when will they smack a tree, another car, lamp post etc.. not IF but WHEN. Passenger restrictions would be 1 trillion times more effective then vehicle restrictions. There's nothing worse then having a car full of retards egging the driver on to do stupid things.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Heeno

so you would rather have 'more young hoons' on the road?

Alright then i wont argue with that...LOL

No I'd rather see all drivers learning and refining road skills. And I'd like to see those with bad attitudes catching the bus. No one asked to restrict the numer of provisional drivers on the roads..

I wont reply further Heeno you have made this debate a waste of bandwidth..

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Steffo

There's nothing worse then having a car full of retards egging the driver on to do stupid things.

damn you musn't have very good mates then.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

No I'd rather see all drivers learning and refining road skills. And I'd like to see those with bad attitudes catching the bus. No one asked to restrict the numer of provisional drivers on the roads..

well when i see a group of mates together in their own cars i see nothing but all of then trying to prove who is the better driver and i don't mean who can stay under the limit and do everything right! think about it

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

That wasn't a personal attack, what were you trying to make say, the sentance makes no sense.

- Good drivers that stay out of trouble because of good behaviour but have poor driving skills can get into trouble when someone else does something stupid and they can't avoid them or brake properly.

- They banned alot of cars that are not some of the "most powerful cars on our road" like you said. Most of the performance cars driven by P-platers are not that powerful anyway, you don't see many 300kw HSVs or ferrari 360s with P plates, they are mostly in older V8s or R33gtsts both of which have less than 200kw.

-When they introduce a useless law like this it means they don't have to do anything about driver training or licensing because they can claim they fixed the problem with this law for a few years.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Heeno

damn you musn't have very good mates then.

Its the generation of people. You should come down to Brighton Le Sands here in Sydney on a Friday night. See what they're like.. and keep driving around the city. My dad's a cabbie.. the things he sees them do at night is unbelieveable. Four morons in a WRX... stop at the lights.. then two of them get out and chase some guy down the street for no reason. Harassing people crossing at padestrian crossings, driving like they own the road.. etc.

If they were travelling alone, not in groups, they wouldn't have the grapefruits to do anything, for a start... plus the risk of them doing something stupid because their mates in their car egged them on goes WAY down.

I've been contemplating getting a ute, to limit myself to one passenger. No one could argue me being unfair either.. only got one seat...

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

- Good drivers that stay out of trouble because of good behaviour but have poor driving skills can get into trouble when someone else does something stupid and they can't avoid them or brake properly.

- They banned alot of cars that are not some of the "most powerful cars on our road" like you said. Most of the performance cars driven by P-platers are not that powerful anyway, you don't see many 300kw HSVs or ferrari 360s with P plates, they are mostly in older V8s or R33gtsts both of which have less than 200kw.

-When they introduce a useless law like this it means they don't have to do anything about driver training or licensing because they can claim they fixed the problem with this law for a few years.

A stock R33 GTS25t should be off the list. They have 187kW stock.. and they're faster then most BA's, GT aside. Plus, it's **** easy to make them chomp anything HSV and FPV have to offer.. simply fit a bleed valve (takes the boost up to the ECU limited 12 psi.. or was it 14? I can't remember, haven't been a Skyline nut for a while).. and tadda.. they've got a total sleeper, with inferior brakes, inferior rubber.. that can outrun HSV's and FPV's finest.. in a very unsafe manner.

But my gripe is with banning things like an EB Fairmont V8. An automatic, 165kW, V8 luxury sedan, that can't pull a 16 flat if its life depends on it, and is easy and safe to drive.. where's the logic behind that?

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Its the generation of people. You should come down to Brighton Le Sands here in Sydney on a Friday night. See what they're like.. and keep driving around the city. My dad's a cabbie.. the things he sees them do at night is unbelieveable. Four morons in a WRX... stop at the lights.. then two of them get out and chase some guy down the street for no reason. Harassing people crossing at padestrian crossings, driving like they own the road.. etc.

If they were travelling alone, not in groups, they wouldn't have the grapefruits to do anything, for a start... plus the risk of them doing something stupid because their mates in their car egged them on goes WAY down.

I've been contemplating getting a ute, to limit myself to one passenger. No one could argue me being unfair either.. only got one seat...

first of all i wont get started on cabbies, secondly what your point, those guys in the rex were probably 25 how do you know they were p platers, plus thats just sydney for ya, i have been there and im surprised all the young ppl down there arn't all in jail

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Steffo

A stock R33 GTS25t should be off the list. They have 187kW stock.. and they're faster then most BA's, GT aside. Plus, it's **** easy to make them chomp anything HSV and FPV have to offer.. simply fit a bleed valve (takes the boost up to the ECU limited 12 psi.. or was it 14? I can't remember, haven't been a Skyline nut for a while).. and tadda.. they've got a total sleeper, with inferior brakes, inferior rubber.. that can outrun HSV's and FPV's finest.. in a very unsafe manner.

Agree, simply because i have driven a R32 GTst and i know exactly where your commin from!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Heeno

first of all i wont get started on cabbies, secondly what your point, those guys in the rex were probably 25 how do you know they were p platers, plus thats just sydney for ya, i have been there and im surprised all the young ppl down there arn't all in jail

The WRX had P-Plates on it for a start..... they may not all have been, but there was at least one in there participating, doing the driving (and it wasn't that good).

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

All idiot will not crash at the same moment, work it out!
There will even be another car about to call the Ambos.... How the hell can anyone hope to learn or hone road skill in a packed car?

bored with this now... those who think they know it all are just telling the world they are unwilling to learn.

I don't disagree that P-platers with packed cars is a bad thing, even 4 quiet passengers talking amongst themselvs can be quite a distraction. By making them take multiple cars they will do silly stuff like race each other, weave through traffic to catch up to each other and run reds so they don't fall behind. I don't know which one is the better alternative. Id be inclined to think that the passanger restrictions would work but id like to see them investigate it properly.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

- Good drivers that stay out of trouble because of good behaviour but have poor driving skills can get into trouble when someone else does something stupid and they can't avoid them or brake properly.

- They banned alot of cars that are not some of the "most powerful cars on our road" like you said. Most of the performance cars driven by P-platers are not that powerful anyway, you don't see many 300kw HSVs or ferrari 360s with P plates, they are mostly in older V8s or R33gtsts both of which have less than 200kw.

-When they introduce a useless law like this it means they don't have to do anything about driver training or licensing because they can claim they fixed the problem with this law for a few years.

I'll differ here , my aged mom has just enough car craft to get a silver camry to church, the shops and back. Yet she is a good driver, excellent and a long history of safe incindent free driving across the state backs that up, I doub't she's a contender for bathurst this year or any of the sprint events. Yet she can go about her business avoiding incident and without being a hazard, she'll have enough road sense to know when to hang the keys up too.

I have no arguement with anyone saying the law as it is, is half assed, and I'm all for any training etc that can be implemented. but no 1 day course will be a replacement for the years of learning on the road, they just better equip you to continue learning.

Like it or not there is a problem, a problem that has been here for generations, it is compounded now by ever increasing congestion etc. I dont envy todays young drivers, but media and political hi jacking and ineffectual legislation do no change the basic facts.

Originally Posted by Steffo

A stock R33 GTS25t should be off the list. They have 187kW stock.. and they're faster then most BA's, GT aside. Plus, it's **** easy to make them chomp anything HSV and FPV have to offer.. simply fit a bleed valve (takes the boost up to the ECU limited 12 psi.. or was it 14? I can't remember, haven't been a Skyline nut for a while).. and tadda.. they've got a total sleeper, with inferior brakes, inferior rubber.. that can outrun HSV's and FPV's finest.. in a very unsafe manner.

But my gripe is with banning things like an EB Fairmont V8. An automatic, 165kW, V8 luxury sedan, that can't pull a 16 flat if its life depends on it, and is easy and safe to drive.. where's the logic behind that?

I have been in one but it was completely stock, it seemed very overrated to me, it had very little torque for a 6 cylinder turbo and felt like a lighter BA without the torque of the BA 6. I understand it doesn't take much to make them fast though.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

I have been in one but it was completely stock, it seemed very overrated to me, it had very little torque for a 6 cylinder turbo and felt like a lighter BA without the torque of the BA 6. I understand it doesn't take much to make them fast though.

They're in the 14.4 - 14.3s range stock. They're not very torque, you're right.. 187kW 287Nm. But they're only 1380kg. And making them fast is about as easy as writing this sentance was. And they're not very expensive anymore either - especially for a Series 1 R33, with no ABS or Airbags. (1993 - 1994).

[DivHunter]

Originally Posted by Steffo

A stock R33 GTS25t should be off the list. They have 187kW stock.. and they're faster then most BA's, GT aside. Plus, it's **** easy to make them chomp anything HSV and FPV have to offer.. simply fit a bleed valve (takes the boost up to the ECU limited 12 psi.. or was it 14? I can't remember, haven't been a Skyline nut for a while).. and tadda.. they've got a total sleeper, with inferior brakes, inferior rubber.. that can outrun HSV's and FPV's finest.. in a very unsafe manner.

Just thought I'd pitch in some info:
184kW stock (afaik)
12psi maxes out the ecu, 10-11psi is getting close to maxing out the AFM.
Bleed valves suck, there are much better manual boost controllers that are way cheaper.
They don't go THAT fast even on the higher boost (which won't last that long on the stock ceramic turbo anyway).
The brakes aren't bad at all and what inferior rubber? Seeing as the jap tyres are illegal (altough pretty good) they have to be replaced and that is up to the owner as to what kind of tyres they buy, same as any other car.
The R33 is MUCH more forgiving than the monty's were :

oh yeah and mines still stock and has not failed to get 500+Ks out of a tank yet :

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Steffo

A stock R33 GTS25t should be off the list. They have 187kW stock.. and they're faster then most BA's, GT aside. Plus, it's **** easy to make them chomp anything HSV and FPV have to offer.. simply fit a bleed valve (takes the boost up to the ECU limited 12 psi.. or was it 14? I can't remember, haven't been a Skyline nut for a while).. and tadda.. they've got a total sleeper, with inferior brakes, inferior rubber.. that can outrun HSV's and FPV's finest.. in a very unsafe manner.

But my gripe is with banning things like an EB Fairmont V8. An automatic, 165kW, V8 luxury sedan, that can't pull a 16 flat if its life depends on it, and is easy and safe to drive.. where's the logic behind that?

If you look closer at the new laws, you will see it is also going to be ileagale to mod a car for a p-plater. Seems to me that is a mod, I am not saying this won't happen, but if caught either by police of dept of RTA thats going to cost in both fines and points. Not to mention possible denial of an insurance claim.


Another argument I have heard is that some of the cars like the wrx are "safer" to drive due to the ABS, traction control, etc, etc.
If ANY driver has to rely on these systems in thier everyday driving, they should not be driving at all. You need to be able to control the car before it needs to make the descions for you.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Yaw

If you look closer at the new laws, you will see it is also going to be ileagale to mod a car for a p-plater. Seems to me that is a mod, I am not saying this won't happen, but if caught either by police of dept of RTA thats going to cost in both fines and points. Not to mention possible denial of an insurance claim.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it says no "high performance or 'souped' up engines." Nowhere do they draw the line at what's souped up and what isn't. So you could go and get any 90s Falcon 4.0, fit a JMM Dev5a package to it, go around hosing the V8 EB-ELs you can't buy, and argue that they weren't clear enough on the matter. Like I said though, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The WRX had P-Plates on it for a start..... they may not all have been, but there was at least one in there participating, doing the driving (and it wasn't that good).

fair enough then, you didn't state that befor, so i didn't know.
but once again we're not all like that

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Heeno

....well i can tell not all of us are like that, yes i see d!ckhead p platers all the time as well but i also see alot of old people just as bad in their merc's, bmw's porches and also you have to remember young ppl arn't as rich as the older folk, and not many have high powered cars and if they do its more then likely their parents bought it for them....

Yes i see the old people aswell like this. Spot on.

You know what the solution could be. IMPOSE HEAVIER PENALTIES. Wow lose your licence for 3 months. To me id hate it if i lost my licence and guarentee that i wouldnt be a ******** again if i did lose it not that i am that way anyways.

Ban them for a year or so for repeat offenders. Pfft fines can be paid. If all we had were fines i wouldnt care cause they can be paid. So they are not exactly a deterrent. Yes there are some who would still drive anyways.

My mate has lost his licence 2 or 3 times and he has learnt his lesson and that was in a XD falcon and a EB falcon. If it had of been a years disqualification in the first place i would highly doubt he would of reoffended.

I dont know bout other people but where i am its mostly drivers with s**t box falcons and commodores who are rapping the s**t outta them because they are cheap and so dont care.

Mostly those with imports cruise around, but may give it a burst every now and again but no way near the amount of people with s**t boxes as theyre imports are way more expensive.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I dont know bout other people but where i am its mostly drivers with s**t box falcons and commodores who are rapping the s**t outta them because they are cheap and so dont care.

Mostly those with imports cruise around, but may give it a burst every now and again but no way near the amount of people with s**t boxes as theyre imports are way more expensive.

lol yea that is true, me n my mates usually buy really dank old cars (usually lasers n vl's for about a couple of hundred) just so we can rape the hell outta them(on large paddocks) then that night all gather round and set it alight, makes for a good bon fire those old cars!

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it says no "high performance or 'souped' up engines." Nowhere do they draw the line at what's souped up and what isn't. So you could go and get any 90s Falcon 4.0, fit a JMM Dev5a package to it, go around hosing the V8 EB-ELs you can't buy, and argue that they weren't clear enough on the matter. Like I said though, correct me if I'm wrong.

If you go back to the very first post in this thread it states
Engine Modifications.

As for not being clear enough, if the car engine is not EXACTLY as it was from the factory that would constiute a Modification.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Yaw

If you go back to the very first post in this thread it states
Engine Modifications.

As for not being clear enough, if the car engine is not EXACTLY as it was from the factory that would constiute a Modification.

im not to sure so im hoping you can answer this for me, but under Engine Modifications does that also include aftermarket air filters as well.
cheers

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by Yaw

.... if the car engine is not EXACTLY as it was from the factory that would constiute a Modification.

I believe absense of compression however will generally be overlooked by authorities. :hihi:

[Yaw]

Originally Posted by Heeno

im not to sure so im hoping you can answer this for me, but under Engine Modifications does that also include aftermarket air filters as well.
cheers

I can answer from an insurance point of view. Aftermarket air filters are counted as a modifcation for insurance purposes. So I would summise yes they are by the RTA also. I am not saying a replacment non genuine filter for example a ryco filter that will replace a worn one and built to the same specs, but a retro fitted one which does not have the same specs.
Like RedXR8 said, some may be overlooked, but something like you suggested with the Skyline would not be, you have changed the specs therfore modified it.

[Heeno]

Originally Posted by Yaw

I can answer from an insurance point of view. Aftermarket air filters are counted as a modifcation for insurance purposes. So I would summise yes they are by the RTA also. I am not saying a replacment non genuine filter for example a ryco filter that will replace a worn one and built to the same specs, but a retro fitted one which does not have the same specs.
Like RedXR8 said, some may be overlooked, but something like you suggested with the Skyline would not be, you have changed the specs therfore modified it.

ok cool cheers