LPG versus Petrol. What's your view

[johnydep]

I can't help myself, I've tried to keep out of the 'LPG is enviromentally friendly' talk, hoping that someone could share some info to counteract the miss-information that is being put out.

LPG vehicles are not 'more' enviromentally friendly compared to a well maintained late model petrol engine.
LPG does make old style engines less poluting than when running on petrol.

New engines have been designed to limit the amounts of expelled exhaust polutants through the use of computers monitering sensors such as oxygen sensor, knock sensor, air flow, temperature, etc & then distributing the correct amount of fuel for as complete a bun as possible, then the exhaust is chemically changed through the catalytic exhaust converter.
Some LPG systems bypass most of the above, the better quality systems use some of them.

The LPG industry spend a small percentage of dollars on emission control, whereas the worlds vehicle manufacturers spend huge amounts of dollars on improving emissions from petrol & diesel engines.

LPG use in high performance motors may be better for the enviroment, but not by much. Your high lift large overap cam shafts are letting huge amounts of unburnt fuel into the enviroment, not to mention the amounts on NOx gas being produced.
Having LPG on a performance engine is no guarantee that it will pass government emissions regulations.

So please don't tell me that your LPG vehicle is more enviromentally friendly that my ULP vehicle.

What you can say though is that; LPG is a great fuel for vehicles designed to run on Lead petrol as it is enviromentally friendly in these engines, it offers fantastic savings for people who travel more than 20,000km a year, dual fuel vehicles are a compromise, but the savings I make are worth it, my performance vehicle runs smoother on gas, but it doesn't rev as hard but I don't mind.

And I'll say yes that is great for you, have you thought about natural gas, it offers better enviromental benefits and more power, but stick with what you know.

http://www.nett.ca/faq_lpg.html

LPG provides about 8% more energy per unit weight (LHV = 19,757 BTU/lbm) than gasoline. Theoretically, vehicle operation with LPG should be more efficient than with gasoline, i.e., the vehicle should attain better specific fuel consumption and improved mileage. However, this will only happen if the engine design is optimized for LPG fuel. If a gasoline engine is converted to operate on LPG this increased efficiency will not be realized due to the lower density of LPG compared to gasoline and also its slightly higher oxygen demand (LPG stoichiometric A/F = 15.8). The lighter density fuel displaces air in the intake manifold, and thus, less air per cycle is induced to the cylinders. This translates to a decreased volumetric efficiency and a loss of power compared to the original gasoline rating of the engine

The major harmful emissions from LPG engines are similar to those from other internal combustion engines:

Carbon monoxide (CO)
Hydrocarbons (HC)
Nitrogen oxides (NOx)

LPG was introduced to the market as a "clean-burning" fuel. Is it still clean today, many years down the road? LPG definitely had the potential to become a clean fuel. The reasons for the superior emissions performance were the following:

Reduced emissions of carbon monoxide compared to gasoline engines (but not as low as in diesel engines).
No heavy hydrocarbon emissions. HC which are emitted, are of short carbon chain and low ozone-forming reactivity.
Low emission of toxic air contaminants such as benzene and 1,3-butadiene.
Low cold-start emissions.
Likely better emissions durability than that of gasoline engines. LPG emissions should not increase as dramatically with the engine wear and deposit build-up.
Zero evaporative and running losses due to the sealed fuel system.
For a variety of reasons LPG is not considered the alternative fuel of the future any more. Its place has been taken by natural gas competing with diesel and biodiesel. Consequently, there has been little development in dedicated LPG engine technology. On the other hand, gasoline engines and their emissions improved tremendously over the last decade. As a result of that development, some of the used-to-be advantages of LPG fuel, especially the low CO emissions, are now less pronounced.

Essentially all LPG engines are gasoline engine conversions. As such, they are not engineered to take advantage of the low emission potential of LPG. Their engine/fuel control system is not optimally calibrated for the new fuel, often sacrificing performance, fuel economy, and emissions. The performance and emissions vary between different engines and conversion kits. Electronic LPG conversion kits are available now which should provide the lowest emissions and best fuel economy, but little data exists so far to verify that statement. Many of the mechanical conversions produce engines not even remotely resembling the ideal, low-emission LPG picture. It is wise to request emission data from the vendor when buying an LPG vehicle for indoor application. Unfortunately, brand new LPG conversions emitting CO levels of 2 to 4% are not uncommon. As a generous guideline, an acceptable LPG engine should have exhaust CO concentration of less than 1% under any steady-state condition.

Emissions from LPG engines depend also heavily on engine tune-up. An example plot illustrating the CO levels for different air to fuel ratios is shown in Figure 4. Carbon monoxide emissions skyrocket when the mixture becomes rich. The importance of proper engine tune-up and maintenance for low emissions can not be overestimated.

[deankdx]

Originally Posted by johnydep

have you thought about natural gas, it offers better enviromental benefits and more power, but stick with what you know.

]

if you could fill up with natural gas as easily as we do with LPG and the running cost was similar, i'm sure there would be many people interested.
especially if there was a compressor to fill youre car from the house supply

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by johnydep

LPG vehicles are not 'more' enviromentally friendly compared to a well maintained late model petrol engine.
LPG does make old style engines less poluting than when running on petrol.

The fact that you need to compare a late model technology rich ULP engine to a technology lacking dinosaur engine to me makes it pretty clear LPG is more environmentally freindly.

Put another way, if the same emmision reducing technology levels are utilised for both the ULP and LPG run engine, the LPG engine will always emit less emmisions and burn "cleaner."

I don't doubt that your new Territory might be more environmentally friendly than my 28 year old falcon though.

Interesting how people notice the different notes from the exhaust the two different fuels! I think this has more to do with tuning as many cars have had their timing advanced a little to help improve the LPG burn and get greater economy.... this tends to make the note more "throaty" on petrol.

[Steffo]

http://www.ford.com.au/landing/egas/co2calculator.asp

Originally Posted by Ford Australia

The Falcon E-Gas emits 10% less carbon dioxide at the exhaust pipe, up to 30% fewer smog forming emissions and up to 80% less harmful air-toxic emissions* compared to the equivalent petrol fuelled vehicle.

Putting into Ford's calculator a vehicle travelling 30,000km per annum, for 3 years, 1 vehicle... c02 emissions reduced by 1,364 cubic metres.. or the amount absorbed by 10 native trees...

[Casper]

I'll make sure I plant 10 trees... there ya go, my greenie luvin for the next 3 years is done.. pass the DDT.

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Casper

I'll make sure I plant 10 trees... there ya go, my greenie luvin for the next 3 years is done.. pass the DDT.

Everytime I use LPG i save more C02, but i end up killing more cows.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Everytime I use LPG i save more C02, but i end up killing more cows.

I prefer Pork snags myself. :

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Casper

I prefer Pork snags myself. :

Rubbish. Nothing beats a 2 inch thick pepper steak. Cept maybe a 3 inch thick pepper steak.

[Bluehoon]

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Rubbish. Nothing beats a 2 inch thick pepper steak. Cept maybe a 3 inch thick pepper steak.

No way, 21 piece feed from KFC!!!! : :

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Steffo

http://www.ford.com.au/landing/egas/co2calculator.asp



Putting into Ford's calculator a vehicle travelling 30,000km per annum, for 3 years, 1 vehicle... c02 emissions reduced by 1,364 cubic metres.. or the amount absorbed by 10 native trees...

That is a purpose built LPG engine.

Has any of the LPG greenies read up on LPG?

Just admit it, LPG is good & cheap, but it wont save us :evil3:

Most of the up to date info about clean air refers to LPG being a cleaner alteranative to Diesel.

Vehicle manufacturers build cars to meet emission laws, when they sell an LPG equiped vehicle it also meets emission laws.

http://www.greenhouse.gov.au/transpo...tvehicles.html

Exbodied LPG emissions are below those of the equivalent class of petrol vehicle for all types of fuels (propane and autogas) and for all emissions except for carbon monoxide. The equivalent class of petrol vehicle means that second generation LPG vehicles1 are compared with ULP vehicles, whereas third generation LPG vehicles are compared with PULP vehicles. These findings refer to dual-fuel LPG vehicles manufactured on the production line or post-equipped under the control of the car manufacturer. We expect after-market conversions to LPG to perform more poorly, but would also expect dedicated single-fuel LPG to perform better...

.......It is for this reason that we expect that dedicated LPG vehicles should be able to be more tightly designed and thus have lower emissions than dual-fuel vehicles

Originally Posted by Pilch

The fact that you need to compare a late model technology rich ULP engine to a technology lacking dinosaur engine to me makes it pretty clear LPG is more environmentally freindly.

Interesting how people notice the different notes from the exhaust the two different fuels! I think this has more to do with tuning as many cars have had their timing advanced a little to help improve the LPG burn and get greater economy.... this tends to make the note more "throaty" on petrol.

Compare? Of course, if people are going to throw the term 'enviroment' around like they own it beause they use LPG, I'm going to compare.

The different exhaust notes mentioned was for the same vehicle using dual fuel, is that the fuel burns differently (slower) & the engine is designed for petrol, dual fuel is a compromise.

[Pilch]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Compare? Of course, if people are going to throw the term 'enviroment' around like they own it beause they use LPG, I'm going to compare.

The different exhaust notes mentioned was for the same vehicle using dual fuel, is that the fuel burns differently (slower) & the engine is designed for petrol, dual fuel is a compromise.

The reality is LPG is a more environmentally friendly fuel type, so it's gonna be pushed as one of the pro's of the fuel. It's no different to everyone that prefers petrol coming back to it's inherit ease compared to LPG for generating power from combustion engines.

The difference in note is due to the difference in the burn characteristics which I believe is matched with ignition timing. When you advance the timing for LPG so it burns more completely, the sound created on petrol will be different...... vise versa if tuned to suit petrol. As you say, it's caused by a compromise in dual fuel setups!

mmmm..... 3" inch thick pepper stake! As a side note the loss of cows will reduce emmisions that add to greenhouse gases anywho! :

[Sourbastard]

Originally Posted by Pilch

As a side note the loss of cows will reduce emmisions that add to greenhouse gases anywho! :

Not according to my wife.

[Pilch]

Put some 98 octane petrol in the car today, $1.409, and also some LPG, $0.459. Just 5c off being a $1 difference!!!!!!

98 octane has gone up 10c since I last bought it, sh!t it hurt watching the price go up :(

For 50L of each that comes out to LPG = $22.95 and 98 octane = $70.45

[deankdx]

Originally Posted by Pilch

Put some 98 octane petrol in the car today, $1.409, and also some LPG, $0.459. Just 5c off being a $1 difference!!!!!!

98 octane has gone up 10c since I last bought it, sh!t it hurt watching the price go up :(

For 50L of each that comes out to LPG = $22.95 and 98 octane = $70.45

thats probably payback for the email not to buy petrol yeasterday,
i filled up with gas Wednesday $0.369 not complaining Yet

[*rayman*]

i'd like to see them convert some of the v8 supercars over to lpg..... prolly wouldn't ever happen cause of the risk of explosion, but would be interesting in regards to race results between lpg and ulp cars.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by *rayman*

i'd like to see them convert some of the v8 supercars over to lpg..... prolly wouldn't ever happen cause of the risk of explosion, but would be interesting in regards to race results between lpg and ulp cars.

The LPG supercars would lose every time. :SaiyanSmi

[*rayman*]

The LPG supercars would lose every time.

Not if they were optimised to run on lpg

dude, you have so just set yourself up for a flaming....

offtopic slightly, is there any way to fill your car if you run out of lpg on the side of the road with an lpg only system? I'm guessing tilt tray to the nearest servo. I guess this is another minor drawback for lpg. My ute is on lpg, i'm yet to give an opinion on it.

in nz lpg's the go if your running a v8, gas just went up to $1.53 for 91 so lpg the go for sure, keep it serviced and shes all good in my books!!

rayman, get someone to make you a double ended fitting, with a 9kg bottle u should be able to put at least half into your ute tank if not more till the pressure equals, ive seen it done before and it gets you out of the sh#t!! lol!!

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by *rayman*

Not if they were optimised to run on lpg

dude, you have so just set yourself up for a flaming....

offtopic slightly, is there any way to fill your car if you run out of lpg on the side of the road with an lpg only system? I'm guessing tilt tray to the nearest servo. I guess this is another minor drawback for lpg. My ute is on lpg, i'm yet to give an opinion on it.

You can buy gas bottles with filler hoses to do this...

[deankdx]

Originally Posted by *rayman*

i'd like to see them convert some of the v8 supercars over to lpg..... prolly wouldn't ever happen cause of the risk of explosion, but would be interesting in regards to race results between lpg and ulp cars.

there was one team a few years back, running gas but i'm not sure whether it was the same series
they changed the whole bottle in the pitstop i think it was at bathurst. it wasnt the slowest car on the track from memory either

[Casper]

Originally Posted by *rayman*

Not if they were optimised to run on lpg

dude, you have so just set yourself up for a flaming....

Couse they would lose every time. The would need almost 1/3 more pitstops to start with. To get the same performance from LPG as from PULP you need to burn a hell of a lot more of it.

[347Stroker]

The way I see it, untill Ferrari, Maserati, Porche, Lamborghini and all other performance manufacturers make PERFORMANCE cars that run of gas, its restricted to the BBQ in my world.
Its great to cook a steak with though.......maybe a performance BBQ conversion is in order....pmsl

[GreenMachine]

Knew a bloke with a bbq made out of the front end of a Torana... Best use I've ever seen for

a) Torana's

and

b) Gas in cars...

[347Stroker]

Hmmmmm, Torana with a gas kit, I have heard of that before.....out Ipswich way alot of them are like that I hear....lol

[pandaman]

Originally Posted by johnydep

That is a purpose built LPG engine.

Just admit it, LPG is good & cheap, but it wont save us :evil3:

Only a few misguided hippies are touting LPG as the be all and end all of eco-friendly fuels. From what i've seen, in terms of compounds of nitrogen and other little nasties it's slightly better than petrol in most situations though. But hey, fact is, it's still a fossil fuel and hence, burning it produces a) greenhouse gases and b) noxious poisons.

And you are right, LPG is good and cheap. This is why most people use it. I don't why so many people have such a huge problem with it. "bbq fuel only" yeah right, it's the same damn thing as petrol, merely in the form of a slightly shorter carbon chain AND A THIRD OF THE FREAKING PRICE! So get over it guys, you dont want it, dont use it just don't bother whinging when petrol gets over $2 a litre and lpg still costs a third or less.

[pandaman]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The LPG supercars would lose every time. :SaiyanSmi

Maybe not, would depend on a lot of factors. Most importantly, who's behind the wheel. Also would the LPG cars be given a handicap to account for the lower efficiency of their fueling system? Would they be allowed to run a bigger tank to accomodate for the higher fuel usage? etc etc.

It's a stupid idea anyway, In a series like the supercars everything is so standardised that the governing body would crap their daks if anyone suggested a deviation from the norm. heh besides which, as has already been expressed in this thread (I think) petrol technology is much more advanced than LPG tech, so for ultimate performance petrol is the way to go. LPG is a compromise further in the direction of economy.

[bindi]

Originally Posted by pandaman

Only a few misguided hippies are touting LPG as the be all and end all of eco-friendly fuels.

And you are right, LPG is good and cheap. This is why most people use it. I don't why so many people have such a huge problem with it. "bbq fuel only" yeah right, it's the same damn thing as petrol, merely in the form of a slightly shorter carbon chain AND A THIRD OF THE FREAKING PRICE! So get over it guys, you dont want it, dont use it just don't bother whinging when petrol gets over $2 a litre and lpg still costs a third or less.

Hmmm... I'm not a misguided hippie because if there were other fuels to choose from that really are just as cheap AND as readily available, I would choose those over LPG. I would like to try CNG and may convert when I see it at more servos.

Your last statement though Pandaman, WOOHOO I AGREE WHOLEHEARTEDLY!

Geez John, chill a bit mate

Ummm if you don't like it, don't use it. Simple. Leave us who wish to keep on paying a third of the price of petrol do so, don't vilify us for our choices.

ALSO see that line, you stepped over it *Bindi goes off to join John for the hunt for a serious chill pill...................*

[347Stroker]

Originally Posted by bindi

ALSO STOP WITH THE F#@&ING BBQ FUEL JOKES YOU LITTLE DICKED MORONS! : *Bindi goes off to join John for the hunt for a serious chill pill...................*

But just reading your response has had me laughing hysterically this morning.....its all in good fun...

[bindi]

Originally Posted by 347stroker

But just reading your response has had me laughing hysterically this morning.....its all in good fun...

Yeah I too meant it to be all in good fun (sometimes it's hard to portray this stuff over the net).