Ethanol Fuel NOT What The Government Spin Drs Tell Us !!!

[csv8]

Green fuel cooks a different race

* Paul Gover
* From: Sunday Herald Sun
* Sun Oct 11 00:00:00 EST 2009 Sun Oct 11 00:00:00 EST 2009


THE fastest fuel economy run in Australian history will be raced at Bathurst today.

A switch from premium unleaded petrol to renewable green E85 ethanol fuel has completely changed the pattern for The Great Race.

In previous years, teams had to re-fill their 120-litre tanks four times during the Bathurst 1000, with a final splash-and-dash top-up in the run to the flag.

For 2009, cars will stop at least six times for a major tanking and some teams are predicting seven stops.

And there will still be a splash before the final sprint to the chequered flag. If there are a lot of crashes and safety car breaks for clean-ups, the number of stops could jump to eight or more for some of the tailend cars.

"We think it will be six stops. But it will depend on the pace of the race and the number of safety cars," the team manager at the Holden Racing Team, Rob Crawford, said yesterday.



Teams are keeping their tactics secret until the race is running, with former winner Garth Tander of Team Red playing a straight bat to questions.

"We figure when it runs out of fuel we'll come in and fill it up. When it runs out again we'll stop again," Tander dead-panned during the lead-up to today's race.

But eventually he cracked.

"I'm not telling you what our economy is. Simple as that," he said.

Testing this week at Mt Panorama has revealed a massive difference in the number of laps between stops.

Most of the serious contenders could run 35 laps between refuelling last year, but this time the number of laps is likely to be somewhere between 22 and 25.

That's around five litres for every lap of the 6.2km course.

"We're still working on it. We won't finalise things until just before the start," said Roland Dane, who heads the Team Vodafone outfit looking for a record fourth straight win with Jamie Whincup and Craig Lowndes.

But the economy run is not just about the number of laps to a tank.

Teams have also had to re-tune for E85 and have been forced to make a compromise between power and fuel economy.

"A lot of effort has gone in since the start of the year looking towards Bathurst," Tander said.

"A lot of people are tossing up to use more fuel."

The difference between maximum power and maximum economy is more than 30 horsepower, which could easily make a winning difference in the final sprint at 4pm today.

A car that is detuned for economy will not be able to match a horsepower runner on the long drags up and down the mountain at Mount Panorama.

"You've got to feed the horses. It's going to be quite a different Bathurst than what we've seen before," said Jason Richards, who snatched provisional pole position in his BOC Commodore.

But it's not the drivers who have the worry.

Teams are tweaking and tuning and they know a single mistake can cost them an engine, and the race.

Team Vodafone, HRT and Jim Beam Racing have all damaged engines trying for maximum economy in pre-Bathurst testing.

Once the engines run too lean they damage valves.

"We will be keeping the power, because if you've got a car in the right place you will need every ounce of performance," said Adrian Burgess, team manager at Jim Beam Racing.

And Burgess, who is responsible for the Falcon of James Courtney and Steven Johnson, raises another problem.

"If you lean it out you can't get it off the starting line smoothly," he said.

"It also makes it hard to get it out of the pits, and with so many stops that could be a problem. You can't take too many risks."

On the tactical front, 25-lap runs also changes the way teams plan to use their drivers.

Instead of switching their drivers at each stop, keeping them fresh and fast, teams could be forced to "double-stint" drivers through the day. Particularly if there are a lot of safety car slowdowns.

It could work for mis-matched teams, which can double-up their ace drivers and minimise the track time for a slower co-driver.

But the big teams all want their best driver in the car for the start and finish. Making that happen will mean juggling in the pits.

"We'll be watching the other guys, to see what they do. You cannot afford to get out of phase," Burgess said.

"Some people are going to be doing more stops, just to keep the window open for drivers and refuelling," said Paul Morris, the Super Cheap Racing boss who is also driving one of his own Commodores.

"It will be another three stops, at least.

"And we might do something funny with our car to see what happens."

My comment : this proves that ethanol fuel is a big con. So why is the government spin drs pushing it ?????????????? I posted tis here and not in Pitstop as it is to show ethanol isn't what we are told..

[opto]

Not sure about other states but it isnt available in SA at service stations.
Supposedly it isnt an accredited fuel, can someone elaborate or correct.

[The Monty]

this was all said last year when they were talking about making the switch, so no new news really.

[KPOJ]

What about hrt using 50,000L of the stuff in pre season testing. Couldnt see the change over catch up to that much wasted fuel.

E85 is a short term fix to keep the greenies happy.

Pros is that you can make more powah with it or the same power and have a cooler running engine.

[Green X]

My understanding is in a High Comp or Forced induction engines you get more Power out of E85 but use more fuel, same as LPG.

So i guess you can't have you cake and eat it too, Power or economy.

What would make it interesting is if the teams could opt for what fuel they wanted to use.

[Romulus]

What I'd like to know is how much CO2 is created to produce Ethanol. The stuff doesn't come out of the ground, it has to be processed. This processing itself produces CO2.

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by TVS Super Pursuit

What I'd like to know is how much CO2 is created to produce Ethanol. The stuff doesn't come out of the ground, it has to be processed. This processing itself produces CO2.

I saw an Australian Story ep once on making ethanol, the amount of energy it takes to make the ethanol it was like why would you bother. You are making more pollution making the stuff.

[StealthAu]

Originally Posted by EDfutura25

I saw an Australian Story ep once on making ethanol, the amount of energy it takes to make the ethanol it was like why would you bother. You are making more pollution making the stuff.

I can't see it requiring more energy then is required for turning what comes out of the ground into what you put in your tank.

[kremmen]

surely growing, harvesting and all associated environmental damage - ie pesticides/fertilisers, must outweigh any good by miles.

but hey, don't let the facts disrupt new age latte yuppie hippies.

[BOSHOG]

Originally Posted by StealthAu

I can't see it requiring more energy then is required for turning what comes out of the ground into what you put in your tank.

what comes out of the ground is already a liquid. ethanol is plant based right? turning this product into a liquid puts you behind the 8 ball from the start

[PepeLePew]

Originally Posted by opto

Not sure about other states but it isnt available in SA at service stations.
Supposedly it isnt an accredited fuel, can someone elaborate or correct.

I thought that too, until I walked past a new United the other day with E85 signs out the front

[Green X]

Originally Posted by kremmen

surely growing, harvesting and all associated environmental damage - ie pesticides/fertilisers, must outweigh any good by miles.

but hey, don't let the facts disrupt new age latte yuppie hippies.

The crops are already there so all that stuff is already taking place.

Takes allot of energy and expensive gear to get that stuff outa the ground and turn it into usable Fuel more than ethanol i don't know.

I currently work in Oil and Gas so if anything I'm biased towards the greedy oil company that currently pay's me LOL

[ebxr8240]

If you guys think petrol comes out of the ground and arrives here without too much emissions.. Try running it on crude fuel.. I lived next door shell refinery in Rosehill. Every morning there was soot on our cars etc...
If its extracted from growing Green plants then any C02 generated is well and truly compensated.. It's a by product of sugar making at present using molasis which we used to feed to dairy stock to prevent acidosis after calving..
It's now used along with all the other green parts to make ethanol .. Much the same as spirit production making alcoholic drinks..
I would rather our farmers get the money and the dollar stays here in THIS country..
An argument may be that food will rise??
Well, well when companies like mcdonalds, Woolworths, Coles etc Pay less and less for a ton of potatoes WHY wouldn't they change to producing ethanol??
I don't see any other businesses stay in production just to keep the public happy with cheap food?? Why should a farmer be any different ??
He can make 10 times more selling his produce to make ethanol than sell potatoes or other food..
Notice some of these companies now have a mager foot hold on fuel sales also ??? Hmm ??
Yet these retail companies can rip them big time while they take the big profits!!
Once cars are tuned on it with high compression etc the economy should come back..
Hopefully direct injection will help here..
Beware of fuel companies propergander and city peoples limited knowledge..
In South America they use it without any issues...
Besides there was hardly a fuel issue at Bathurst...Yes some had better fuel economy and the rules should maybe designed to make engineers design / tune for better economy...

[TUF_302]

I dont see how they can tell us its better when we have to use so bloody much of it to go the same distance, that amount of pit stops made the race even more boring!, and barbequed the FPR car lol!

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by TUF_302

I dont see how they can tell us its better when we have to use so bloody much of it to go the same distance, that amount of pit stops made the race even more boring!, and barbecued the FPR car lol!

Yea they said fractured fuel line!!
They didn't say the alternator wasn't charging and they swapped another battery in there and DIDN'T tie it down properly !!!
It hit the filler tube and obviously caught on fire..
Nothing to do with the fuel they used..

[The Monty]

Ethanol fuel also made the Kelly boys car loose in the rear end, and made tyres delaminate......

[Nikked]

Ethanol = Renewable

Petroleum = Non Renewable

Thats a real big con eh...More Gover rubbish

[Burnout]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Ethanol = Renewable

Petroleum = Non Renewable

Thats a real big con eh...More Gover rubbish

Glover - th' Plover!

The largest ethanol still in Q'land is the CSR Job at Sarina, just south of Mackay, the whole kit n' caboodle up there runs on cane crushings. There is CO2 produced in the production of Ethanol.
Can't member how much, a fair bit though.

[Nikked]

I love how people think Ethanol is a bad thing.

-Ethanol will be cleaner to produce compared to Oil based products no matter what.
-Any Co2 produced is used by the plants in photosynthesis, in some cases creating the sugers that are used for Ethanol production
-Its naturaly high octane, and is used to boost octane ratings in petrol anyway.
-The Model T ford ran on it...
-Ethanol produces little or none Co (Carbon monoxide) unlike petrol. And CO is a way bigger worry then Co2

[Airmon]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Beware of fuel companies propergander and city peoples limited knowledge..
In South America they use it without any issues...

Apples and oranges there.

A country with a similar amount of cars to Australia but with 15x the sugarcane production.

I agree there is no harm in using ethanol, but with its lower energy content compared to regular unleaded its not going to be as efficient.
Its better octane rating will have an effect on performance but not range. As clearly shown.

Am I correct assuming the majority of our ethanol comes from sugarcane?
If so an increase in food prices wont be as profound as what we have seen in the states. Ethanol from sugar cane uses the waste product of the cane, as opposed to the US where they use Corn grain for ethanol which has a larger effect on food prices.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by Airmon

Apples and oranges there.

A country with a similar amount of cars to Australia but with 15x the sugarcane production.

I agree there is no harm in using ethanol, but with its lower energy content compared to regular unleaded its not going to be as efficient.
Its better octane rating will have an effect on performance but not range. As clearly shown.

Am I correct assuming the majority of our ethanol comes from sugarcane?
If so an increase in food prices wont be as profound as what we have seen in the states. Ethanol from sugar cane uses the waste product of the cane, as opposed to the US where they use Corn grain for ethanol which has a larger effect on food prices.

Sugar cane /beet increases by 500% when it became a profitable crop in Brazil.. I assume the same here ?? Much better than $2 a ton of potatoes to mcdonalds.. We have more land per person so I cannot see an issue..

[Jastel]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

If you guys think petrol comes out of the ground and arrives here without too much emissions.. Try running it on crude fuel.. I lived next door shell refinery in Rosehill. Every morning there was soot on our cars etc...
If its extracted from growing Green plants then any C02 generated is well and truly compensated.. It's a by product of sugar making at present using molasis which we used to feed to dairy stock to prevent acidosis after calving..
It's now used along with all the other green parts to make ethanol .. Much the same as spirit production making alcoholic drinks..
I would rather our farmers get the money and the dollar stays here in THIS country..
An argument may be that food will rise??
Well, well when companies like mcdonalds, Woolworths, Coles etc Pay less and less for a ton of potatoes WHY wouldn't they change to producing ethanol??
I don't see any other businesses stay in production just to keep the public happy with cheap food?? Why should a farmer be any different ??
He can make 10 times more selling his produce to make ethanol than sell potatoes or other food..
Notice some of these companies now have a mager foot hold on fuel sales also ??? Hmm ??
Yet these retail companies can rip them big time while they take the big profits!!
Once cars are tuned on it with high compression etc the economy should come back..
Hopefully direct injection will help here..
Beware of fuel companies propergander and city peoples limited knowledge..
In South America they use it without any issues...
Besides there was hardly a fuel issue at Bathurst...Yes some had better fuel economy and the rules should maybe designed to make engineers design / tune for better economy...

Go and look at your car after a cane fire, or try to see across the street during cane season when there is no wind

Plenty of pollution

In other countries they make ethanol from corn and wheat, leaving less product available for food, causing shortages and price rises

Agree with the rest of the post

So long as the cows have enough molasses may as well use excess for petrol

[ebxr8240]

The places I have seen said they don't burn them now ??.. Who's scared of snakes anyway.. Lol..
Besides they use the whole plant in ethanol production

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by opto

Not sure about other states but it isnt available in SA at service stations.
Supposedly it isnt an accredited fuel, can someone elaborate or correct.

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

I thought that too, until I walked past a new United the other day with E85 signs out the front

United sells it, but they only have 1/2 pumps in a state (Vic now has two). Apparently the LS1 boys are playing with it and are getting good power from it.

http://www.unitedpetroleum.com.au/di...-locations.asp

[Mr Hardware]

So 6x120L plus the original 120L = 84L/100klms.

[gtfpv]

i havent read this thread other than the 1st post . but simple mass tells us that 6 tanks instead of for , means 50% less economy . so to get the same economy from .
E-85 it would have to be 1/2 price at the bowser to match .
will this ever happen ???

[FreddyDUZ747]

United on Main North Road sell the 100octane aswell.(Pooraka)1 pump only.On the ultimate I get around 5-550kms and on the U100 I get 470-490kms.At 5c a litre cheaper it works out the same for me with better performance.

[KPOJ]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

So 6x120L plus the original 120L = 84L/100klms.

Thats about right, my old mans old windsor powered track car used to get 100L/100km making similar power figures.

[Bundy]

when I used to race speedway, a banked 400 meter dirt track, my modifed 265 Hemi running 100% Methanol use to average 1 litre per lap when racing!!

Heaps of HP, Plenty of FUN!!

[CAT600]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

If you guys think petrol comes out of the ground and arrives here without too much emissions.. Try running it on crude fuel.. I lived next door shell refinery in Rosehill. Every morning there was soot on our cars etc...
If its extracted from growing Green plants then any C02 generated is well and truly compensated.. It's a by product of sugar making at present using molasis which we used to feed to dairy stock to prevent acidosis after calving..
It's now used along with all the other green parts to make ethanol .. Much the same as spirit production making alcoholic drinks..
I would rather our farmers get the money and the dollar stays here in THIS country..
An argument may be that food will rise??
Well, well when companies like mcdonalds, Woolworths, Coles etc Pay less and less for a ton of potatoes WHY wouldn't they change to producing ethanol??
I don't see any other businesses stay in production just to keep the public happy with cheap food?? Why should a farmer be any different ??
He can make 10 times more selling his produce to make ethanol than sell potatoes or other food..
Notice some of these companies now have a mager foot hold on fuel sales also ??? Hmm ??
Yet these retail companies can rip them big time while they take the big profits!!
Once cars are tuned on it with high compression etc the economy should come back..
Hopefully direct injection will help here..
Beware of fuel companies propergander and city peoples limited knowledge..
In South America they use it without any issues...
Besides there was hardly a fuel issue at Bathurst...Yes some had better fuel economy and the rules should maybe designed to make engineers design / tune for better economy...

Great post, so many have blinkers on and allow themselves to be herded by the media.

E85 is not a "one size fits all application", the fuel has its uses and as it currently stands petroleum is easier to access and more readily available to the western world......... but everybody here knows what "peak oil" is right?

Daniel