Unfair fine?

TickedEFSix · 13-07-2008, 05:14 PM

Earlier this year my partner slid into the back of a ute after realizing that the ute that was in front of him had suddenly put on his brakes (and I mean suddenly) to come to a stop as the car in front of the ute had no working brake lights and was braking but because for whatever reason the ute driver didn't realize that the car in front of him (with no working brake lights) was slowing so of course he had to jam on his brakes which in turn my partner had to jam on his brakes....well the brakes in my partners ef gli locked up and we (I was in the car) slid/skidded up and eventually hit the back of the ute's tow bar and nothing else. The ute driver pulled over onto the side of the road in which we'd both been traveling and my partner also did the same.
The ute driver was shaken but not hurt as were we. We all asked each other if we were alright and then asked what happened (as above). We exchanged insurance information and phone numbers and were very glad no one was hurt and were quite confident that this was one of those unpreventable accidents as my partner was not speeding or tailgating and was well aware of what was going on around him at the time of the accident, so we were confident that because of the circumstances the police would be notified and they would come to the scene if needed they be and then we could organize pickup of the car because of the extent of the damage to the front of the car.
Police came and got statements from everybody (me my partner and the driver of the ute) , both drivers were breath tested, police were satisfied that we were traveling at a safe distance as said by ute driver and measurements of the skid marks (25 meters-this is with a set of 4 brand new yokohama tyres and new brakes infact we'd only just gotten the car back that day from tyrepower). Car carrier came and took the car to a holding yard to be assessed for damage (whether fixable or not) it was not, my partner got paid out.

Anyway.....Last week on Thursday my partner received a ticket from the post office to pick up registered mail.

Guess What!?? He got a fine for driving to close!! WTF? How the hell do that figure that? the officer who spoke to him said that it was possible that he might get fined for "undued care and attention" but that it was up to his supervisor if any fine was issued or not.

Unbelievable!

J_Tank · 13-07-2008, 05:19 PM

At the end of the day he hit the back of the car in front of him. COuld have been worse as the car was towed, could have been neg driving.

Jeeepers · 13-07-2008, 05:19 PM

Sounds spot on to me. If you run up the back of anyone, regardless of circumstance. It is driving without due care and attention. Pay up and move on I say.

TickedEFSix · 13-07-2008, 05:22 PM

But that's the thing. The officer who took my partners statement and the ute drivers statement said that they knew he was not traveling to close. So why should he have to pay for something he was not doing?

3vXT · 13-07-2008, 05:23 PM

If you can't avoid running into the vehicle in front of you when it stops suddenly then you are too close. Doesn't matter how good or bad your tyres are, or why the car in front is stopping so suddenly, its up to the driver to make sure there is enough distance between their car and the one in front in case of things like this.

I'm sorry, i know that sounds harsh.

EDIT: I'd assume the cop just didn't want to argue about it or didn't want to look like a . I've never heard of anyone hitting a car in front and not getting a fine when the police are called.

FPV GT40 · 13-07-2008, 05:25 PM

Well he must have been too close, traveling too fast, or not paying attention, otherwise he would have stopped in time, it is quite simple really otherwise he would not have hit the other car.

As usually if the car is not too close it will simply stop in time and all will be fine.......

FPV GT40 · 13-07-2008, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TickedEFSix

But that's the thing. The officer who took my partners statement and the ute drivers statement said that they knew he was not traveling to close. So why should he have to pay for something he was not doing?

If he was not too close how come he hit the other car, the act of hitting the other car shows that he was too close....

I am not really sure what you are trying to say. Are you saying he hit the car on purpose as he was far enough away to stop safely :togo:

TickedEFSix · 13-07-2008, 05:33 PM

nope not speeding, reaching up to 80ks as were about 200-300 metres from the traffic lights in which we were behind the ute at the time. We would have been roughly 3-3 and a half car lengths behind as verified by the ute driver and the skid marks.

Interesting that they took so long to fine him (happened in March)- the officer in charge didn't think that he was traveling to close either. Hence my writting this topic.

Just wanted opinions didn't seem fair to me..he will pay, thanks.

Jack91 · 13-07-2008, 05:33 PM

How much is the fine?

TickedEFSix · 13-07-2008, 05:39 PM

$175 plus one demerit point

For those of you wondering, The car was not in at all a bad shape afterwards.The utes towbar pierced the radiator which pushed up into some other stuff. It looked completely fixable from the outside! Alas no.

ratter · 13-07-2008, 05:42 PM

pretty much in Vic, if the cops are called to an accident scene, someone will be charged.

jaydee · 13-07-2008, 05:44 PM

Did you point out to the Police that attended that the brake lights weren't working?

I hear what you're saying but as pointed out by others, if you can't stop in time then you must be too close.

Thats why I keep a little bit further back from trailers/horse floats (lights usually not working) and EL Fords, look how many of them don't have working brake lights.

TickedEFSix · 13-07-2008, 05:46 PM

Yeah they knew, they also knew that the ute driver thought he clipped the car in front of him, but they failed to stop and pull over.

Such is life.

3vXT · 13-07-2008, 05:47 PM

I think the problem is that most people drive too close to the cars in front of them so our ideas about what is 'too close' are usually wrong. We see a few car lengths and think it looks ok but if the car in front stood on the brakes suddenly most of us would be in trouble.
Next time you go for a drive (especially in a city or built up area) have a look at how close people are to the cars in front, or how close the car behind is to you. If you stood on the brakes and pulled your car up as quick as possible, or worse, hit something that stopped your car on the spot, would the car behind be able to avoid you.

By the way, i'm not pretending to be better than anyone else at this. I clipped a car trailer a few years back so i'm guilty too.

EBTom · 13-07-2008, 05:50 PM

On a similar note, I had a bingle a few weeks ago. I came to stop on a small backstreet, waiting to turn right into another small street. I waited until two cars passed and I went to move off, but because of a number of reasons I didnt see the oncoming moped rider and consequently cut him off and he hit the side of my car.

I got an infringement notice for failing to give way. 3 Points and $182 fine.
Can someone explain the finer points of this charge? Should I have been given this fine even though I did come to a complete stop prior to hitting the other guy?

Im fully prepared to cop this penalty, but I dont think I explained the incident to the officer very well and obviously if I dont deserve the fine, I dont want to pay it.
I do courier type work as part of my job and in the last year ive also had one speeding fine about 10 months ago for which I lost one point. So for the next two months I'll only have 1 point before being suspended.

JG66ME · 13-07-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ORSMT

Sounds spot on to me. If you run up the back of anyone, regardless of circumstance. It is driving without due care and attention. Pay up and move on I say.

Sort of agree. In most cases this is true but some people like to pull into your brake gap then slam on the brakes. This is especialy bad when they pull in front of a truck or car with horse float or tandem in tow.

its not always as clear cut as the law seems to think it is.

Steve

jaydee · 13-07-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EBTom

On a similar note, I had a bingle a few weeks ago. I came to stop on a small backstreet, waiting to turn right into another small street. I waited until two cars passed and I went to move off, but because of a number of reasons I didnt see the oncoming moped rider and consequently cut him off and he hit the side of my car.

I got an infringement notice for failing to give way. 3 Points and $182 fine.
Can someone explain the finer points of this charge? Should I have been given this fine even though I did come to a complete stop prior to hitting the other guy?

Im fully prepared to cop this penalty, but I dont think I explained the incident to the officer very well and obviously if I dont deserve the fine, I dont want to pay it.
I do courier type work as part of my job and in the last year ive also had one speeding fine about 10 months ago for which I lost one point. So for the next two months I'll only have 1 point before being suspended.

There are 2 things you have to do at a STOP sign, accordinging to the driving manual, that is 1st to STOP and the 2nd to give way to any traffic.

So unfortunately it's not enough that you stopped, you also have to make sure it's OK to proceed.

phillyc · 13-07-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TickedEFSix

nope not speeding, reaching up to 80ks as were about 200-300 metres from the traffic lights in which we were behind the ute at the time. We would have been roughly 3-3 and a half car lengths behind as verified by the ute driver and the skid marks.

Interesting that they took so long to fine him (happened in March)- the officer in charge didn't think that he was traveling to close either. Hence my writting this topic.

Just wanted opinions didn't seem fair to me..he will pay, thanks.

Doing a bit of maths here. 3 or 3 1/2 car lengths is only 15 to 18mtrs.

1 metre per second is 3.6kmh. At 80kmh it is 80 divide by 3.6m/s that is 22mtrs of distance travelled each second. So, 15 mtrs is just two thirds of a second.

We all do it from time to time, particularly when its peak hour, but really it just shows that gap isn't far enough away. RTA suggest 3s which is a crap figure, catering for the lowest common denominator, but 30 odd metres is my preferred distance at that speed. About half of what the RTA suggest.

phillyc · 13-07-2008, 06:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG66ME

Sort of agree. In most cases this is true but some people like to pull into your brake gap then slam on the brakes. This is especialy bad when they pull in front of a truck or car with horse float or tandem in tow.

its not always as clear cut as the law seems to think it is.

Steve

I have run up the back of someone on my motorcycle and didn't get pinged. It was a self defence manouevre.

I had a clear lane with 40 odd metres of space in front. Until... a young bloke on his P-Plates in a you guessed it VL Commodore, on the gas, crossed unbroken lines, to veer into my lane before the 3 lanes became 2.

In the process, cutting off the 2 people in the merging lane that had slowed to get into my lane in the 40 mtr gap.

I had to either be bumped off and potentially into oncoming traffic and / or take the right lane which was already slowing and quickly. I took the right lane. That was the better option, though not having anyone veering illegally into my lane was the best option still!

Had he not changed lanes, the Commy would've rear ended one of the cars in his own lane. Instead, I was left with a bill. Him nothing. So, yes you can get away with it.

But it needs to be special circumstances. Potential death is a good one...

Jeeepers · 13-07-2008, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JG66ME

This is especialy bad when they pull in front of a truck or car with horse float or tandem in tow.

Tell me about it. I drive a B double. And braking distance is forever being invaded. Scary sometimes.

EBTom · 13-07-2008, 06:40 PM

Wasnt at a stop sign.
Not sure that the police officer knew I had come to stop before moving off and hitting him, rather than just coming along and turn straight in without slowing.
I accept I was in the wrong but if I can get out of the fine and points, IF i dont deserve it then why not?

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaydee

There are 2 things you have to do at a STOP sign, accordinging to the driving manual, that is 1st to STOP and the 2nd to give way to any traffic.

So unfortunately it's not enough that you stopped, you also have to make sure it's OK to proceed.

**Falcon Coupe** · 13-07-2008, 06:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EBTom

On a similar note, I had a bingle a few weeks ago. I came to stop on a small backstreet, waiting to turn right into another small street. I waited until two cars passed and I went to move off, but because of a number of reasons I didnt see the oncoming moped rider and consequently cut him off and he hit the side of my car.

I got an infringement notice for failing to give way. 3 Points and $182 fine.
Can someone explain the finer points of this charge? Should I have been given this fine even though I did come to a complete stop prior to hitting the other guy?

Im fully prepared to cop this penalty, but I dont think I explained the incident to the officer very well and obviously if I dont deserve the fine, I dont want to pay it.
I do courier type work as part of my job and in the last year ive also had one speeding fine about 10 months ago for which I lost one point. So for the next two months I'll only have 1 point before being suspended.

What has coming to a stop got to do with giving way, it doesn't matter if you were stopped for 2 minutes, you pulled out in front of the bike and caused him to hit you. Hence a charge of failing to give way.

Between you and the bike id say you got the better deal.

Rodp · 13-07-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TickedEFSix

But that's the thing. The officer who took my partners statement and the ute drivers statement said that they knew he was not traveling to close. So why should he have to pay for something he was not doing?

Perhaps he was suggesting that at least they weren't tailgating.

If you rear end another vehicle due to not being able to stop in time then quite simply you were driving too close for the conditions. You're meant to keep a safe distance between yourself and the car infront, and based on the fact that there was a rear end impact, clearly there wasn't a safe distance.

There's no way to get out of that one...

Kryton · 13-07-2008, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EBTom

Wasnt at a stop sign.
Not sure that the police officer knew I had come to stop before moving off and hitting him, rather than just coming along and turn straight in without slowing.
I accept I was in the wrong but if I can get out of the fine and points, IF i dont deserve it then why not?

you DO deserve it.
as mentioned above, it makes no difference that you stopped.
you FAILED TO GIVE AWAY.
YOU caused an accident which could have resulted in death.
your lucky you arent also charged with dangerous driving.
some people need to take responsibility for their own actions.
go ask the guy that you made smash into your car if you deserve it or not.

Rodp · 13-07-2008, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EBTom

On a similar note, I had a bingle a few weeks ago. I came to stop on a small backstreet, waiting to turn right into another small street. I waited until two cars passed and I went to move off, but because of a number of reasons I didnt see the oncoming moped rider and consequently cut him off and he hit the side of my car.

I got an infringement notice for failing to give way. 3 Points and $182 fine.
Can someone explain the finer points of this charge? Should I have been given this fine even though I did come to a complete stop prior to hitting the other guy?

The infringement seems pretty self-explaintory unless you're leaving something out. Doesn't matter if you stopped at an intersection, if you entered it when another vehicle was approaching it and you collided, clearly you didn't give way to that vehicle. If they had right of way, you're nicked.

Gammaboy · 13-07-2008, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

YOU caused an accident which could have resulted in your own violent death.
your lucky you weren't beaten to death by the rider with your own shoes

Fixed that for you

Honestly, EBTom, If you'd done that to me and I'd been capable of standing back up afterwards, you'd have been on the recieving end of some creative vengance...
Bike riders - Putting the cruel and unusual back into punishment.

EBTom · 13-07-2008, 07:59 PM

Settle down dude. It was an accident which Im sure even model citizens like you are liable to. There were a number of distractions for me at the time which contributed to the accident (rider was hidden by a-pillar, sun glaring in my face, car passing me on outside as it happened).
As Ive now said twice, I accept responsibility for what happened.
I was simply asking if anyone knew the specifics of the charge which has now been cleared up.
Thanks for your very constructive input.

Quote:

Originally Posted by davway

you DO deserve it.
as mentioned above, it makes no difference that you stopped.
you FAILED TO GIVE AWAY.
YOU caused an accident which could have resulted in death.
your lucky you arent also charged with dangerous driving.
some people need to take responsibility for their own actions.
go ask the guy that you made smash into your car if you deserve it or not.

snappy · 13-07-2008, 08:02 PM

I don't believe your at fault . If he had no brake lights then his car is unroadworthy and should not be on the road . More lickely having cost your partner the seconds needed to come to a halt.

2. Who called the cops . The law states an officer only needs to be called if some one is hurt or arguement could not be settled.

the fine is a joke . 70% of drivers would recieve a fine daily if they pushed that law.
But pay the fine its not worth the cost of fighting it

Feathers · 13-07-2008, 08:08 PM

My friend's brother had a similar accident, except he was behind the car with no working lights, and hit them.
Their car was uninsured, unregistered and clearly unroadworthy, which they did get fined for.
He still got fined for running into them.

boss 300 · 13-07-2008, 08:16 PM

i hallways,put my fist in the air,if somebody its too close,works all the time,some drivers are just plain moron,i keep 3 car space in front of me,but hie you got the @### the got to jump in front of you.because you got such gap,different story wen am driving my 25 t
truck.