My views on the Performance Car Market

[RedHotGT]

My views on the Performance Car Market

Well.... firstly let me say I'm looking forward to re-reading this thread in 6 months to see what really becomes of my theories, but thats well into the future... lets talk now....

The Performance car market is in trouble... and will continue to decline for the remainder of the year. Not exactly going out on a limb am I? Considering the worldwide financial situation - blind freddie could make this prediction - accepted. But the Performance car market will be worse than the base-model market - and here's why.

Why is it that we buy a Performance car?? We can't *legally* drive faster than 110km/h, hoon laws restrict 'spirited' driving, and basically they cost money to buy/maintain/garage.

We buy them because we love cars. We like going fast. We like looking cool. We like being unique. We like being different. We like pulling up next to young 'backwards hat types' at lights in their Honda Civics with fullsick 4" exhausts, knowing that they're only really going to appreciate the rear end of our car.

BUT sadly at the moment there is a lot of people out there that are struggling financially, or will lose there jobs soon. So therefore our money spending will need to be a bit more restricted and a bit more sensible.

So when it comes time to re/lease the company vehicle, we will need to think twice about which vehicle we lease. Maybe less money from my weekly pay going into the car is better? Maybe less fuel? Maybe the company won't spend as much this time?
Or when it comes time to upgrade/replace the 'old' performance car we currently have, the re-sale will be lesser, maybe I shouldn't spend as much....

Personally, if I was spending my own money RIGHT NOW on a performance car, my choice would be simple. F6X in 3 months time. Why? Because they'll be dumping them cheap, their different, and i've got 3 kids....
BUT what car would I WANT to buy? Probably the GT-P... Its awesome...

I think that the other problem will be all the CLOWNS that got rolled by clever marketing and 'hype' surrounding the Performance/Muscle car market, holding on to their impossible dream that these cars will make money for them in the future. The BF Cobra's, the W427, the 40th Anniversary BF GT... IMO these were hopeless attempts to move cars.
The Cobras? Stupid and poor attempt of a tribute. The XC Cobra was a coupe... So why did FPV 'tribute' the car with a Ute and a Sedan? Also, you could already get a white GT with Blue decals? Not unique enough for me....
The BF GT 40th, again you could already get a GT with gold stripes? Whats the big deal? If you want to make something limited edition, make it appealing and different.
The W427? The most overpriced Australian car ever made perhaps? At least this has something that nobody else has got, 7lt of tyre-tearing power.... But come on, we've even used the leftover walkinshaw paint to coat it... And after looking at it today at the motorshow - the front is unique, but the rear and sides - its just another clubby....

And then there's the classic/muscle car market - which will continue the downward spiral as well.... because there are way too many alternatives to getting a cool muscle car, rather than paying $100,000 + for Monaros, Toranas, GTs, Coupes, etc....

Again, these are only my opinions and of course everyone else is welcome to their own thoughts and ideas of the car market....

After driving past the FPV day today in C/field I also noticed something.... There are a lot of people that share our passion in Performace/Muscle cars. I saw so many BA/BF GTs, F6's, mixed with a few custom EB/EF/EL/AU's, and some oldschool XR/XW/XY GT's, and some XA/XB/XC's too... and this was just in the streets where I *COULDN'T* get a park....

Anyways, i've probably posted the longest post in a while.... but I don't apologise for that....
Thats the thing about opinions - you're always welcome to them....
So now I've had mine...

Lets hear yours....

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by loftie

Personally, if I was spending my own money RIGHT NOW on a performance car, my choice would be simple. F6X in 3 months time. Why? Because they'll be dumping them cheap, their different, and i've got 3 kids....
BUT what car would I WANT to buy? Probably the GT-P... Its awesome...

GT-P can easily fit 3 kids in the back seat and the seats are arguably more comfortable than the bench style seats you get in the Territory (previously had a Terry Ghia AWD and those seats sucked). F6X is going to chew through as much if not more fuel than the GT-P. I think resale is going to be shot on the F6X... Nobody wanted them now, why would they want them later? Good deals are to be had on the GT-Ps at the moment too.

Go get the GT-P! You know you want to!

[paule11]

I agree got an email the other day showing cars stockpiled all over the world . I will start looking for 1968 firebird should be some good buys in the next few years

[SM1DY]

With-in a matter of years, FPV have released the 40th anniversary, Cobra and 5th Anniversary GT's. That's a total of 900 FPV's in time 3 years time, it seems to me that FPV themselves are destroying the exclusivity of these cars and only have themselves to blame if the resale on these car arent where they should be.

[cs123]

Agree with what you are saying. Especially the classic muscle car scene. The stupid prices were fueled by easy credit and people in artificially high paying jobs. I think people will start wondering about the wisdom of these investments but won't be prepared to let them go for a loss just yet. It might take 12 months but I think the price of these will be in for a major correction.

IMO the Cobra and 40th anniversary are worth about as much the the decal kit they put on them. Collectable cars are more than stickers and a paint job.

[SM1DY]

Originally Posted by cs123

Collectable cars are more than stickers and a paint job.

Very true, FPV should have confined the BOSS 302 to the Cobra, that may have made it appear more of a collectable item.

[FPV+fteT3]

FPV will trim more models from the lineup the f6x is gone soon one of the gt's will go why you need 3 models in the one type of car is beyond me gt, gt-p and gt-e all v8 and similar something has got to give, we will not only see fewer HP cars but fewer models as the financial situation takes it's course. Maybe you all get a base model GT and option it up, Brakes, leather,sunroof, sound, blower etc.... HSV will do the same IMO you get a clubsport standard and option it up....all the way to an omega.

Japanese manufacturers dont have a HP arm toyota did but it died. RIP TRD. Not enough sales to justify having a performance arm there decision was based on costs and sales figures not on the nostalgia of the old GT and Monaro.

Changes will need to be made at FPV and HSV to weather the storm fewer cars will be made and various models dropped to save money mabe even built to order cars will be on the cards. Order your FPV pay a deposit and wait till it's built could take weeks.

[mr smith]

Originally Posted by SM1DY

Very true, FPV should have confined the BOSS 302 to the Cobra, that may have made it appear more of a collectable item.

Yup, one of the reasons I pulled the pin on my Cobra order.
As for muscle and collectible car prices, only the very best original cars will keep any value. Prices are already on the down and will only keep going that way for a while yet.

[Iggypoppin']

flame suit on. IMHO i believe the market for V8s is crumbling and the best placed company to weather this storm is ford, as they have a much better and cheaper to run HP car, the F6(and XR6t). i personally cant understand holdens view of "bigger V8s and lots of em" while the fuel prices stay high and obviously wont be dropping too soon. but thats beside the point. ford have done the right thing utilizing turbochargers on the I6's and they should continue to do so to save the HP market but have a reasonably fuel efficient car. my 2c

[Powdered Toast Man]

Originally Posted by loftie

The BF Cobra's, the W427, the 40th Anniversary BF GT... IMO these were hopeless attempts to move cars.
The Cobras? Stupid and poor attempt of a tribute. The XC Cobra was a coupe... So why did FPV 'tribute' the car with a Ute and a Sedan? Also, you could already get a white GT with Blue decals? Not unique enough for me....
The BF GT 40th, again you could already get a GT with gold stripes? Whats the big deal? If you want to make something limited edition, make it appealing and different.

I assume you are aware that the original Cobra was just an attempt to move excess coupe body shells, so why is the BF Cobra any different (apart from the colours already being available on the regular range). They just ran the regular standard engines too.

I did get your point but it really just was an attempt to sell some cars.

I actually think there are almost too many performace cars to choose from and they are so affordable they have now blended into the streetscape. You can get a variety of V8 muscle from Ford, FPV, Holden, HSV, Chrysler plus the turbo muscle from Ford and FPV too. Then there are the turbo 4s like Rexes, the new Lancer, Golfs and Jettas, Audi's etc. There is so much to choose from that having a performance car is now the norm instead of it being unique.

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by SLWXR6

flame suit on. IMHO i believe the market for V8s is crumbling and the best placed company to weather this storm is ford, as they have a much better and cheaper to run HP car, the F6(and XR6t). i personally cant understand holdens view of "bigger V8s and lots of em" while the fuel prices stay high and obviously wont be dropping too soon. but thats beside the point. ford have done the right thing utilizing turbochargers on the I6's and they should continue to do so to save the HP market but have a reasonably fuel efficient car. my 2c

Petrol price not an issue for the average Joe buying a V8 performance car Biggest issue for them is having it keyed in a car park by some jealous punk.

Resale not a real issue either unless you only plan to hold onto it for a short period of time. In any event change over prices from model to model (say moving from a BA GT to an FG GT) haven't changed a great deal given you can pick up an FG for close to $55k OTR...around $10k off RRP.

I agree on old school muscle....Big market correction happening there....Whether those that paid top dollar for them a year or so ago hold on to them will be dictated by whether or not they can hold onto their job through the current economic decline, or have enough cash reserves to ride it out

[4Vman]

With respect to the premium Australian performance segment if V8's are dead why do FPV continue to sell roughly 2 V8 powered cars to every 1 I6T powered car? and its been the same since the I6T powered cars were released.
Why do HSV continue to outsell FPV by a fair margin year in year out with ONLY a V8 option..?
It doesnt sound like the V8 is dead to me, nor on its way out...
Nobody from the "V8 is dead" camp can explain it, they usually just dismiss it with wild claims to the contrary.... (despite sales figures supporting it) or try to flame me for pointing it out....

[xr6turbo2005]

Originally Posted by fpv84d

FPV will trim more models from the lineup the f6x is gone soon one of the gt's will go why you need 3 models in the one type of car is beyond me gt, gt-p and gt-e all v8 and similar something has got to give, we will not only see fewer HP cars but fewer models as the financial situation takes it's course. Maybe you all get a base model GT and option it up, Brakes, leather,sunroof, sound, blower etc.... HSV will do the same IMO you get a clubsport standard and option it up....all the way to an omega.

whats it going to matter if there is 3 models of basically the same car. If they say pull the GT-P and GT-E and stick with the GT but give you the option to option back up to say GT-P spec, whats the difference? Isn't the GT-P basically a fully optioned GT anyways ???

i could understand if they were significant differences to engine and drive train etc and therefore more development costs, but i wouldnt think there would be any higher costs. I could be wrong, certainly no expert, but just my thoughts

[vanman_75]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

With respect to the premium Australian performance segment if V8's are dead why do FPV continue to sell roughly 2 V8 powered cars to every 1 I6T powered car? and its been the same since the I6T powered cars were released.
Why do HSV continue to outsell FPV by a fair margin year in year out with ONLY a V8 option..?
It doesnt sound like the V8 is dead to me, nor on its way out...
Nobody from the "V8 is dead" camp can explain it, they usually just dismiss it with wild claims to the contrary.... (despite sales figures supporting it) or try to flame me for pointing it out....

i hope your not basing this on facts again :

[Iggypoppin']

Originally Posted by 4Vman

With respect to the premium Australian performance segment if V8's are dead why do FPV continue to sell roughly 2 V8 powered cars to every 1 I6T powered car? and its been the same since the I6T powered cars were released.
Why do HSV continue to outsell FPV by a fair margin year in year out with ONLY a V8 option..?
It doesnt sound like the V8 is dead to me, nor on its way out...
Nobody from the "V8 is dead" camp can explain it, they usually just dismiss it with wild claims to the contrary.... (despite sales figures supporting it) or try to flame me for pointing it out....

its interesting to note that! and your 100% correct! i suppose australias love of V8s isnt going to die in the bum. well, maybe not soon at least. i confess, despite loving F6's and XR6t's, i would rather a slightly slower 8 over them anyday. just cant get away from V8 rumble can we? my previous comments about the V8 market crumbling should have been better phrased...i believe in 5-10 years there wont be quite as much a market for 8's as there will performance 6's, but that will only be speculation until that time reaches us.
till then, i say buy the gas guzzlers, guzzle the gas, enjoy it while it lasts. jeez you only live once.

[azaxr8]

we all know the v8 is the Australia icon.

[Iggypoppin']

if the V8 goes down in a ball of 98ron fuelled flames, i dont want to see weak replacements using 1litre motors and running off sunshine dust and kitten farts.

[schnoods]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

With respect to the premium Australian performance segment if V8's are dead why do FPV continue to sell roughly 2 V8 powered cars to every 1 I6T powered car? and its been the same since the I6T powered cars were released.
Why do HSV continue to outsell FPV by a fair margin year in year out with ONLY a V8 option..?
It doesnt sound like the V8 is dead to me, nor on its way out...
Nobody from the "V8 is dead" camp can explain it, they usually just dismiss it with wild claims to the contrary.... (despite sales figures supporting it) or try to flame me for pointing it out....

Absolutely spot on.

In a time where V8's are getting bigger and global warming is an issue, it is as popular as ever.

Why is it that we buy a Performance car?? We can't *legally* drive faster than 110km/h, hoon laws restrict 'spirited' driving, and basically they cost money to buy/maintain/garage.

Why do people smoke?, Why do we drink? Why do people gamble?

Its the feeling you get from planitng the foot, hearing the idle or roar, its a social life for some, a hobby to modify, its something you can set goals to, a initiative to work overtime, A reward for working hard, etc...

We buy them because we love cars. We like going fast. We like looking cool. We like being unique. We like being different. We like pulling up next to young 'backwards hat types' at lights in their Honda Civics with fullsick 4" exhausts, knowing that they're only really going to appreciate the rear end of our car.

hehe even better reasons.

I agree with you, even more so with the classics and muscle cars. BUt alot of people who own their GT's, toranas, chargers, etc are generally people who can afford them, people who are reliving previous memories, enthusiasts/fanatics and some people who are collectors investors.

Generally i dont see the prices coming down on the Rarer or more desired models like the phase 3 or a big tank E49. They will hold their values, they just wont be sold or changing hands quickly if at all.


Absolutely correct about the alternatives though, thats why i have kept my panel van, it is rarish but not sought after compared to a charger. It helps.

[Buzz Box]

The V8 are the same as bugattis and M divisions there will ALWAYS be a market for them no matter what.

You may loose a small percentage of sales that were people who had money to burn but HSV and FPV and AMG and M will ALWAYS sell and ALWAYS have a market.

Its more the classics that will really lose there value because they are a hobby an extra at least a HSV/FPV/M/AMG is drivable and is a car you can use everyday so alas justify its expense.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

With respect to the premium Australian performance segment if V8's are dead why do FPV continue to sell roughly 2 V8 powered cars to every 1 I6T powered car? and its been the same since the I6T powered cars were released.
Why do HSV continue to outsell FPV by a fair margin year in year out with ONLY a V8 option..?
It doesnt sound like the V8 is dead to me, nor on its way out...
Nobody from the "V8 is dead" camp can explain it, they usually just dismiss it with wild claims to the contrary.... (despite sales figures supporting it) or try to flame me for pointing it out....

I am not going to say that I disagree with you because in many ways I don't.

I think the important thing to realise is although the V8's are still outselling the 6T, this is happening on a market where large car sales in general are on the decline. So really the V8's are maintaining the same proportion of a smaller market, something that is not demonstrated in your example. Yes the V8 will continue to sell because those that are financial enough for a FPV or HSV are from the V8 era. Look at me, I have had two FPV's, one XR8 and one HSV in the last 15 years. I grew up in a time that boys at school used to talk and dream of monaros, ford coupes, chargers and SLR Toranas. We used to refer to engines as the 308, 350, 351 and 360 etc. We had V8's ingrained in our psyche at a young age so therefore we still buy them.

Now look at the kids of today, most of them dream of R33/R34, WRX, Evo lancer and Golf GTi etc. They now longer refer to motors in terms of CI or capacity, now it is "its a 4GE" or some other form of engine code I do not understand. What are these kids going to be buying when they are financial enough to fund a performance car? What they have been raised on, which is the smaller capacity turbo charged performance car. This is a trend that will continue for as long as the general public trend of moving to smaller sized cars continues. Will that trend ever reverse to larger cars dominating the market again, no it will not, therefore the large performance market (read as V8) will decline proportionately.

If you don't believe me, think back to the 80's-90's, nearly every house had at least one commodore or falcon parked in the driveway. Medium to small cars were the domain of the wife's car, for example the wife drives a laser and the hubby has the falcon, that was the aussie driveway. Now have a look around at the suburbs and many houses have a camry or mazda 6 etc for a large car, with a focus sized as the second car. The trend is there that the cars are getting smaller and this is shown in the sales figures. In the early eighties the biggest seller in australia was the commodore, end of last year it was the Mazda 3. This will continue and therefore the sales of the v8 will continue to decline until it becomes a specialist niche market, simple fact.

This is why the aussie performance marques (HSV and FPV) must plan for future small and medium size models (eg focus and mondeo), market them at the 20-30 year olds and take it to the import performance cars if they are to survive. For as long as they focus all their attention on the large car only, they have a limited life span and I can not see them being viable in the next 10-20 years.

[Cookie-XR8]

Originally Posted by fpv84d

.... HSV will do the same IMO you get a clubsport standard and option it up....all the way to an omega.

[flappist]

FPV are designing cars to sell to the majority of "australian preformance car enthusiests". They are selling fairly well although there is always background grumbling that "they are not hard enough" and "they are not fast enough".

This is all just a smoke screen as the average FPV buyer has no real interest in actually driving fast for long distances or amateur motor sport they just want to "look good".

The most compelling evidence of this is that the lesser performing engine outsells the greater by a significant margin, the buyers are quite happy to pay $1,000 for stripes and decals but not $3,000 for upgraded brakes and conversations about FPVs revolve around heritage, exhaust note, dyno charts, colour/stripe combinations, badges etc.

There seems to be very little about lap times at lakeside/QR/wakefield et al. or participation targas, rallies, sprint days etc. and even the drag strips are visited more than once by only a small number.

I once tried to organise a cruise up to NT before the speed limits so there would be a group instead of my usual single car blasting about. This was a few weeks before the end and the last chance for anyone to feel the freedom for driving their XR/GT/F6 as fast as they wanted to legally.
I got one person who was interested but could not make it. Other than that NOT ONE SINGLE AFF member was even remotely interested. There was lots of talk about stone chips, cost of fuel, putting too many kilometres on the car, wearing out tyres and all sorts of other excuses that seemed typical of pretenders and "look at me's".

So that is where FPV is, lots of stripe packages because stripe packages rather than performance is what actually sells........

[GT0132]

Originally Posted by flappist

There was lots of talk about stone chips, cost of fuel, putting too many kilometres on the car, wearing out tyres and all sorts of other excuses that seemed typical of pretenders and "look at me's".

So that is where FPV is, lots of stripe packages because stripe packages rather than performance is what actually sells........

Pretty provocative statement you make there

Hang on a minute?

So the bloke who tarts up his NA XR6 with stripes, lowers it with 19" copy rims but does no performance enhancing mods is labelled an FPV wannabe because he has the show but not the go and the guy who buys the real deal gets labelled a "pretender" because he orders the stripe package instead of bigger brakes ???

One of the reasons you may not have had a good response from AFF members is the distance to get there for most and the boredom factor.
If i'm taking a week off work I'd rather spend it on a beach in Fiji.. drinking beer and cocktails, maybe a surf or two than driving to the back of Goodndawindi to see how fast my car will go.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

FPV are designing cars to sell to the majority of "australian preformance car enthusiests". They are selling fairly well although there is always background grumbling that "they are not hard enough" and "they are not fast enough".

This is all just a smoke screen as the average FPV buyer has no real interest in actually driving fast for long distances or amateur motor sport they just want to "look good".

The most compelling evidence of this is that the lesser performing engine outsells the greater by a significant margin, the buyers are quite happy to pay $1,000 for stripes and decals but not $3,000 for upgraded brakes and conversations about FPVs revolve around heritage, exhaust note, dyno charts, colour/stripe combinations, badges etc.

There seems to be very little about lap times at lakeside/QR/wakefield et al. or participation targas, rallies, sprint days etc. and even the drag strips are visited more than once by only a small number.

I once tried to organise a cruise up to NT before the speed limits so there would be a group instead of my usual single car blasting about. This was a few weeks before the end and the last chance for anyone to feel the freedom for driving their XR/GT/F6 as fast as they wanted to legally.
I got one person who was interested but could not make it. Other than that NOT ONE SINGLE AFF member was even remotely interested. There was lots of talk about stone chips, cost of fuel, putting too many kilometres on the car, wearing out tyres and all sorts of other excuses that seemed typical of pretenders and "look at me's".

So that is where FPV is, lots of stripe packages because stripe packages rather than performance is what actually sells........

Thankyou.. im glad someone else has noticed, or more to the point understands....

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by flappist

FPV are designing cars to sell to the majority of "australian preformance car enthusiests". They are selling fairly well although there is always background grumbling that "they are not hard enough" and "they are not fast enough".

This is all just a smoke screen as the average FPV buyer has no real interest in actually driving fast for long distances or amateur motor sport they just want to "look good".

The most compelling evidence of this is that the lesser performing engine outsells the greater by a significant margin, the buyers are quite happy to pay $1,000 for stripes and decals but not $3,000 for upgraded brakes and conversations about FPVs revolve around heritage, exhaust note, dyno charts, colour/stripe combinations, badges etc.

There seems to be very little about lap times at lakeside/QR/wakefield et al. or participation targas, rallies, sprint days etc. and even the drag strips are visited more than once by only a small number.

I once tried to organise a cruise up to NT before the speed limits so there would be a group instead of my usual single car blasting about. This was a few weeks before the end and the last chance for anyone to feel the freedom for driving their XR/GT/F6 as fast as they wanted to legally.
I got one person who was interested but could not make it. Other than that NOT ONE SINGLE AFF member was even remotely interested. There was lots of talk about stone chips, cost of fuel, putting too many kilometres on the car, wearing out tyres and all sorts of other excuses that seemed typical of pretenders and "look at me's".

So that is where FPV is, lots of stripe packages because stripe packages rather than performance is what actually sells........

LOL bingo. How many posts past before the complaints about no new mags on new issues.

[GT450]

And Ferarri/ Aston drivers buy them for trackwork too. Yeah right! Flappist if you had one your pessimistic comments might carry a lot more weight. People buy what they like and can afford , so what if dosent have big brakes so what if it does or doent have stripes.The maximum limit is 110 kmh and a fiat 500 will do that.people buy what they feel good in and that's an FPV so be it, but get off your high horse and stop the criticism. There is an hsv forum i believe.
Cheers
GT450

[colossus]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

I am not going to say that I disagree with you because in many ways I don't.

I think the important thing to realise is although the V8's are still outselling the 6T, this is happening on a market where large car sales in general are on the decline. So really the V8's are maintaining the same proportion of a smaller market, something that is not demonstrated in your example. Yes the V8 will continue to sell because those that are financial enough for a FPV or HSV are from the V8 era. Look at me, I have had two FPV's, one XR8 and one HSV in the last 15 years. I grew up in a time that boys at school used to talk and dream of monaros, ford coupes, chargers and SLR Toranas. We used to refer to engines as the 308, 350, 351 and 360 etc. We had V8's ingrained in our psyche at a young age so therefore we still buy them.

Now look at the kids of today, most of them dream of R33/R34, WRX, Evo lancer and Golf GTi etc. They now longer refer to motors in terms of CI or capacity, now it is "its a 4GE" or some other form of engine code I do not understand. What are these kids going to be buying when they are financial enough to fund a performance car? What they have been raised on, which is the smaller capacity turbo charged performance car. This is a trend that will continue for as long as the general public trend of moving to smaller sized cars continues. Will that trend ever reverse to larger cars dominating the market again, no it will not, therefore the large performance market (read as V8) will decline proportionately.

If you don't believe me, think back to the 80's-90's, nearly every house had at least one commodore or falcon parked in the driveway. Medium to small cars were the domain of the wife's car, for example the wife drives a laser and the hubby has the falcon, that was the aussie driveway. Now have a look around at the suburbs and many houses have a camry or mazda 6 etc for a large car, with a focus sized as the second car. The trend is there that the cars are getting smaller and this is shown in the sales figures. In the early eighties the biggest seller in australia was the commodore, end of last year it was the Mazda 3. This will continue and therefore the sales of the v8 will continue to decline until it becomes a specialist niche market, simple fact.

This is why the aussie performance marques (HSV and FPV) must plan for future small and medium size models (eg focus and mondeo), market them at the 20-30 year olds and take it to the import performance cars if they are to survive. For as long as they focus all their attention on the large car only, they have a limited life span and I can not see them being viable in the next 10-20 years.

I completley agree with this entire post - the market place will change as the Gen X, Y's and beyonds come into full time jobs, pay off houses and buy new performance cars. They have no ingrained love of V8's, to them turbos are king - its not their time yet though it wouldnt hurt for FPV and HSV to start marketing to them and appealing to them with hero models (The Focus XR5T and HSV VXR are good starts but they lack AWD and many don't like hatches - they want coupes.)

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by GT450

And Ferarri/ Aston drivers buy them for trackwork too. Yeah right! Flappist if you had one your pessimistic comments might carry a lot more weight. People buy what they like and can afford , so what if dosent have big brakes so what if it does or doent have stripes.The maximum limit is 110 kmh and a fiat 500 will do that.people buy what they feel good in and that's an FPV so be it, but get off your high horse and stop the criticism. There is an hsv forum i believe.
Cheers
GT450

Making an educated observation about the way things REALLY are isn't a criticism....
Its a fact: the I6T powered cars are better performers than the V8 powered cars.. no big deal, but its also a fact their sales don't reflect it, they're simply not as desirable.
The point that's being made is for the wider broader market outright performance is secondary to the "feel good" things like stripes, spoilers, exhaust note and BRAND LOYALTY.
Why else do you think HSV/FPV.V8 sales continue to to be so strong relative to the I6T powered cars that clearly out perform them.?

Here's a question that's sure to raise the blood pressure for a few:
What will happen to the f6 should FPV get a turbo V8 option in 2010....???????

[platinumXR]

Some very good points made by all.

My 2c worth is that the V8 as a performance version or a "muscle car sentimental derivative" (like the Cobra or GT) will be around for a while yet while ever someone will buy them.

Really...does 1 second (calm down just an analogy) on paper REALLY count in real world? "Geez...V8 is 1.32654856598 seconds slower than the I6...must be a dud mate..." ...or..."the I6 is slightly better ballanced for track work...V8 must be a pig mate" Who are you John Bowe? I know guys that can flog WRX, GT and SS owners consistently around most of NSW tracks...in a Mazda 6 of all things. Just because you got it, doesn't mean you know how to use it (yes waiting for responses to that one).

We always compare stock factory models and when we get hold of them...we recalibrate, supercharge etc. etc. so what difference does it make? Can you really compare a modified 450Kw supercharged XR8 or GT to a stock R8 or WRX? It's all relative and personal preference. But as others have said they are not exactly in the exclusive pigeon hole any more. There are more GT's and derivatives floating around now than there ever was and this does not exactly make for a good investment. I'd buy a T3 if I could find a bl**dy manual you soft marshmallows.

FPV and others have used our sentimental memories of improved production racing to shift stock and nothing more. If they were serious about true performance you would see a lot more W427 style FPV's floating around...but hopefully not at 6.3257854 Million dollars each.

Me personally, I will probably just update the XR8 to whatever Ford is offering at the time when the time comes. Simple, humble, expandable (as mentioned earlier I can hot it up to blow a GT into last April - supercharger, Alcon's or whatever)....or invest in EFI for the XB...
Ford have definitely won my admiration as well with their world beating I6 technology and tuning and if I could afford it I would probably splash out on an F6 and if the Focus RS was AWD? then yep would have one of those in the shed (but blue...really) but I digress...

Australia's performance car market or niche - call it what you will - WILL be around for some time yet, scaled down perhaps yes; but this only adds to the exclusivity, would you not agree?

[platinumXR]

Originally Posted by flappist

FPV are designing cars to sell to the majority of "australian preformance car enthusiests". They are selling fairly well although there is always background grumbling that "they are not hard enough" and "they are not fast enough".

This is all just a smoke screen as the average FPV buyer has no real interest in actually driving fast for long distances or amateur motor sport they just want to "look good".

The most compelling evidence of this is that the lesser performing engine outsells the greater by a significant margin, the buyers are quite happy to pay $1,000 for stripes and decals but not $3,000 for upgraded brakes and conversations about FPVs revolve around heritage, exhaust note, dyno charts, colour/stripe combinations, badges etc.

There seems to be very little about lap times at lakeside/QR/wakefield et al. or participation targas, rallies, sprint days etc. and even the drag strips are visited more than once by only a small number.

I once tried to organise a cruise up to NT before the speed limits so there would be a group instead of my usual single car blasting about. This was a few weeks before the end and the last chance for anyone to feel the freedom for driving their XR/GT/F6 as fast as they wanted to legally.
I got one person who was interested but could not make it. Other than that NOT ONE SINGLE AFF member was even remotely interested. There was lots of talk about stone chips, cost of fuel, putting too many kilometres on the car, wearing out tyres and all sorts of other excuses that seemed typical of pretenders and "look at me's".

So that is where FPV is, lots of stripe packages because stripe packages rather than performance is what actually sells........

Well lookie here...actually agreeing with the FLAPPIST. You are spot on.

I gave up on car clubs years ago (20 to be exact) for pretty much the same reason: because no one actually wanted to drive their cars anywhere. Too collectible, too fragile, might get a stone chip, a bird might sh&t on it, petrol is too dear...boo hoo why didn't I buy a Hyundai, brakes don't last long, my missus won't come, don't want to wear out the gear knob, the wipers need changing...the sky is too blue...