Race legend Allan Moffat's safety plan to teach children to drive - Page 2

GT · 23-07-2010, 05:05 PM

Rather than have an opinion I will just speak from experience as I raised 3 sons who are now between 22 - 27.

In fairness they did have the advantage of a rural property in New Zealand and I do realise that this is not a luxury that most Aussie and Kiwi kids have.

My boys were on quad bikes at 8 years old and always wore safety gear and never had to be reminded. They all learned to drive by 13 and had been working on the tractor for a year or two at that stage. I bought a nice manual Mini and they would drive around the paddock in front of the homestead where I could see them and I cannot recall ever having to remove the keys for stupid behaviour - but they knew I would if there was anything out of order. They were definitely at an age where they still listened, didn't argue and hadn't stumbled across being bigger experts than me, on everything - that came later!

They got their Learners at 15 and the whole thing was just part of everyday life. There were rules and if they didn't adhere to them they knew the car would be confiscated so didn't go there.

The only drama I ever had was when no2 son at 18, decided to drag another idiot off at the traffic lights and a police car was behind him. His precious car was confiscated for 30 days, he had to go to court, pay a fine, pay the storage of the car and when the car was winched on the tow truck, they badly damaged the front bar. I refused to help him finance any of this drama and he learned his lesson.

My boys also paid for their cars. One cleaned the school toilets for 2 1/2 years to have enough to buy what he wanted and the youngest did tractor work - rain, hail and shine. Having worked so hard for these prize possessions they were very careful with them.

I am in favour of introducing everyday life skills as early as sensible while the kids are still co-operating and listening and have respect/fear for the parent. The laws in NZ also help parents deal with this transition.

Gaela

flappist · 23-07-2010, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

No straw grasping, I've just had enough with dealing with the constant increasing road toll, and now it will include 12 to 18 year olds.

FFS

The idea is to LOWER the road toll by teaching people to drive over a much longer period.

They will not get their licenses at 12 and go hooning down to a wiggles concert high on red cordial and jaffas.

Did it ever occur to you that a major reason why the road toll is climbing is because too many inexperienced people are getting on the roads who have been fast tracked to pass a driving test rather than trained to drive and the the whole road safety agenda has been hijacked to create a government revenue stream?

g220ba · 23-07-2010, 05:27 PM

Fantastic idea.

Also nowhere does it say children should be driving at 12 it says they should be trained to drive. This could involve an extensive theory based training program including driver etiquette, Road rules, Basics of vehicle handling and road sharing.

All it really needs is maybe 1-2 hours a week (It'll be more useful than some of rubbish they teach at schools at the moment), Do the theory from year 7-9 then introduce them to the basic driving techniques, Follow that with some basic vehicle control techniques in a controlled situation (Driver training centre etc.) in years 10-12, add to that the current system of training.

Something has to be done and to sit on a car forum and flat out reject positive moves forward in road safety is just ridiculous. The earlier they learn proper techniques the better they will be. The main issue i forsee is the parents poor driving techniques rub off onto their children therefore undoing any proper training.

I also firmly believe that a defensive or advanced driver training course should be mandatory before recieving your probationary license.

bungarra · 23-07-2010, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

No straw grasping, I've just had enough with dealing with the constant increasing road toll, and now it will include 12 to 18 year olds.

I was driving at 12 in various powered vehicles which my dad taught me in ranging from a 1.2lt Corolla to 360 CJ Chrysler. I also have done training with a government agency in defensive driving of vehicles inclusive of modified V8's. I have also seen the impact from drivers of all ages smeared across the tarmac, 50 year olds smear the same as an 18 year old.

I have only ever been involved in two accidents, 1 being hit in the rear by an inattentive Pizza delivery driver and the other was T boned by a mature driver who was looking at a road map as he ran through a red light at high speed.

The two questions I do ask of you, Who gave you qualifications to drive a high powered no doubt modified V8?? If you haven't been assessed as qualified by a statutory authority, please explain why you are qualified to drive the vehicle? Experience doesn't count under your own thinking based on the gunning down of the idea of Supervised Training.

To me, you sound like do as I say not as I do.

302 XC · 23-07-2010, 06:25 PM

There was some interesting topics skaife mentioned in his efforts to address this issue
One of them was looking at the way overseas countries train up there younger drivers
A major issue was the issue of driving newer/if not new cars for our young
The other issue was driver training
These people overseas are trained to control cars at speed
And a major issue,as ive said before
Parents teaching bad habits
What really annoys me about all this stuff is,
If the government was INTERESTED in training properly and not REVENUE raisin
WE could have some well trained/intelligent drivers
Instead of untrained/unintelligent revenue raisin monkeys

Franco Cozzo · 23-07-2010, 07:55 PM

I remember our "driver training" program in year 11 (2008). The Police came out and preached to us how speed kills and speed cameras save lives, the new P plate laws are already saving many lives, then we had some uni students come out and we got split into groups, then we threw tennis balls to each other in the room and that was our entire driver training day.

Everyone was so hyped up for it, that 150 kids took the day off, me and a mate where the only ones who went to it in our house group, we got jibbed.

SEZ213 · 25-07-2010, 12:18 PM

Hrmmm...seems there's a lot of discussion around why this isn't a good idea...I might counter with why I think this IS a good idea.

I learnt to drive when I was ten on the family farm, feet barely able to reach the clutch in a four wheel drive...the old man would let me change gears in his ute from about 7, but only up our road, I learnt to watch his feet and listen for when the revs dropped as he wouldn't tell me when he had put his foot on the clutch...

Yes, psychologists say we don't have the cognitive functions fully grasped until we're in our mid to late 20's, but I think if we could actually 'educate' younger children earlier, we wouldn't have these issues.

Get to them before they develop the whole 'I want to impress that girl/boy over there" - the truth of the matter is that younger minds are more maliable than those of a 16 year old...you still have the ability to 'educate' as opposed to 'preach'.

rodderz · 25-07-2010, 12:27 PM

Great that it's finally getting out there. I don;t know how you couldn't agree with earlier driver education and training.

It's the only real way of reducing the road toll- you have to get the mindset of a young person right BEFORE they get their license. Whats the use of them passing the test and getting keys with the only lessons being how to pass the test? It's ridiculous. If you teach them all facets, from car control, to defensive driving, attitude on the road, what happens in accidents, as well as the road rules, they will have 200% more education than what they currently have available now.

My school had a driver ed program when my oldest brother was there, that was over 20 years ago. They had a car donated from a local caryard, and groups in yr 9-12 would get taken on the oval with it in wet and dry to get an understanding of driving a car. There was also theory lessons as well. Don't see why every school can't do it.

uranium_death · 25-07-2010, 12:36 PM

Exposing children to cars and road safety from a young age may help to take the novelty away when they do receive their full licenses, potentially meaning they won't stuff around as much.

You can never solve that problem because let's face it, some young men at 18 are still little turds who care nothing about the safety of others, but for some, it may help them respect the road rules, as well as the vehicle they drive just that little bit more.

DanielXR8 · 25-07-2010, 03:40 PM

Well the Victorian Premier and indeed all the state leaders, will no doubt have two words for Moffat "Old Hoon". Some will even go so far as to accuse him of loosing traction during a Bathurst race, but nonetheless I am more inclined to listen to a professional driver like Moffat, then a politician who sees no problem with budgeting for increased revenues from road safety, nor feels they are part of the problem for doing so.

One wants to solve a problem and one makes a lot of money from it. Easy to see which one is concerned for the safety of my kids.

**Sorted** · 25-07-2010, 04:12 PM

I always remember this phrase:- If it saves just even one life then it's worthwhile!

This is usually what is said when any new road rule is brought in by the government.

The other side of it is that if you break the new road rule the government can fine you.

The government doesn't seem to use the same phrase when it comes to diver education as it doesn't line their pockets with extra cash.

It will cost the government money so maybe saving lifes without reward is not on their agenda.

SteveJH · 25-07-2010, 04:24 PM

How many Go Kart tracks are there in the country and would they be suitable for *basic* driver training if the aim is to do the training off public roads?

Other alternatives would be sports stadium parking lots when there is nothing on.

flappist · 25-07-2010, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

How many Go Kart tracks are there in the country and would they be suitable for *basic* driver training if the aim is to do the training off public roads?

Other alternatives would be sports stadium parking lots when there is nothing on.

How many skateboard parks were their in Australia 20 years ago?

phillyc · 25-07-2010, 04:39 PM

Well there is a reason why most succesful racers start at an early age. That is the same with just about any sport. They develop skills and have time to understand their actions and how to improve.

I grew up on a small farm and from age 6 would sit on dads lap as we travelled a couple hundred metres on the dirt/gravel driveway. Obviously too short to reach the pedals, I would control the steering only. With some experience gained, dad would drive up to about 40kmh. Which felt quite fast! I also got to drive the ride-on lawn mower which was great for learning manoevring.

A few months ago I took my nearly 3yo boy on a half hour ride in a 2 person Go-Kart up at Raleigh Park raceway which is about 1.2km long. He had a great time, but I told him, the only spot for going fast is on the race track.

He often mentions how much he loved that kart ride and when he rides his pedal cart up the footpath says "Look at me, turning left, turning right." and stays on the path or guiding it over the potholes in the rear lane. Clearly if my 3yo understands turning, there is capacity for 12yo to learn a life skill in a controlled environment. Lifes lessons/skills can start early and should be repeated.

IMO dealing with money/finance/investment, learning cooking and driving should be taught at schools.

Since 90% of the population is urbanised, you could build some driver training facilities every 100km or so apart and the general population wouldn't have to drive more than 50km to these facilities. If driver training was made compulsary to both obtain and maintain licences, these places could in fact become revenue positive and reduce road trauma. Sweden, Finland and germany have it right.

Well done Moffat, great to hear your voice on this issue of driver education!

phillyc · 25-07-2010, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SteveJH

How many Go Kart tracks are there in the country and would they be suitable for *basic* driver training if the aim is to do the training off public roads?

Other alternatives would be sports stadium parking lots when there is nothing on.

Yeah, the various levels of government have chipped in $35M to build new grandstands at my local stadium, but rejected (on dubious grounds) a self funded motorsport park 30km away. That aside, there is money to be spent on facilities available, it is just what facilities get built.

I reckon the multiple use of the stadium carparks would be a good start.

Go kart tracks could be okay. But the cars may damage the circuit ie shoulders so would need to be addressed on a case by case basis. Could be a good money spinner for suitable circuits.

phillyc · 25-07-2010, 04:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

How many skateboard parks were their in Australia 20 years ago?

Agreed. There is money available. But not many people would want a driver training facility near there house. Having said that, the Newcastle rider training facility is only 4 blocks from my house and situated next to the rail line. Excellent location with the off leash dog park being the other 'neighbour'.

phillyc · 25-07-2010, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sorted

I always remember this phrase:- If it saves just even one life then it's worthwhile!

This is usually what is said when any new road rule is brought in by the government.

The other side of it is that if you break the new road rule the government can fine you.

The government doesn't seem to use the same phrase when it comes to diver education as it doesn't line their pockets with extra cash.

It will cost the government money so maybe saving lifes without reward is not on their agenda.

I don't think that it necessarily has to. Yes there is initial and ongoing costs but i believe they could be self funding. If you have 10 million people who have a licence and need to re-new their driving skills every 5years, that is 2 million annually. Charge $100 per person. That is a solid turnover of $200m annually just for this function.

If they could deal with 40 people a day, you would only need 150 facilities.

SteveJH · 25-07-2010, 06:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

I don't think that it necessarily has to. Yes there is initial and ongoing costs but i believe they could be self funding. If you have 10 million people who have a licence and need to re-new their driving skills every 5years, that is 2 million annually. Charge $100 per person. That is a solid turnover of $200m annually just for this function.

If they could deal with 40 people a day, you would only need 150 facilities.

Might even help get the unemployment stats down a bit....

Plus if they had purpose built facilities, once a month they can open them up for the day, especially in places without proper tracks or drag strips.

bungarra · 25-07-2010, 07:35 PM

One thing is for sure, the more knowledge of driving the better. They could also include a compulsory night of helipng in the ER of hospitals on a Friday and Saturday night, will expose people to the other factors of when something goes wrong and also a few days community service in the rehabilitation centres. I did this in St Johns cadets as part of my qualifications and certainly opened my eyes up at 12 as to the consequences of being an idiot behind the wheel.

The more knowledge the better.

chevypower · 26-07-2010, 01:18 AM

Sorry, but if you think this is a bad idea, you are an idiot. People learn a lot faster and learn more at an early age than they would waiting till they are older. It is better to develop the skills and confidence at an early age. It is the kids that steered the family car sitting on dad's lap when they were little, and those that then drove tractors and cars on the farm that end up being better drivers later on. This is indisputable.

Look at musicians and athletes. The most talented are the ones that have spent more of their lives doing it..

Oh, and as far as gun safety, children here can do hunter's safety education when they are 12. My nephews and nieces have done it, the idea is EDUCATION. It actually dramatically REDUCED deaths and injuries from hunting accidents. I'm sure I have the figures somewhere to prove that. Any state Fish & Game Department would have that. I would trust them to handle a firearm before I would trust any Australian adult that has never handled one.
12 year olds should be getting experience driving cars around (just not on the road), pulling trailers and driving tractors and spending less time on the PlayStation. Anyone who thinks kids should not be getting these experiences and we should wrap them up in cotton wool to protect them for their own good needs a reality check. Education and experience in everything in life is the only way forward. This IS NOT the same as saying they should have experience with drinking, smoking, taking drugs and having sex. Anybody who tries to mix those things is a fool. Seriously, is there no common sense in the world anymore?

platinumXR · 26-07-2010, 02:39 PM

The more adverse variables you can remove from the crash (end result) equation the better. Red Mist, lack of skill or training / consideration and apathy are probably the most important in my book.

I have always advocated some kind of road rules / driver education in schools. The more information / education someone has cannot be a bad thing IMHO.

I first got my introduction to car control/road craft at the agfe of 8 (on a large sheep station albeit) and driving up & down a gravel mountain road in a EK with a tree-speed...and I would like to think that, that early introduction to vehicle control / dynamics saved me a couple of times later in life (around 17 yrs old).

Though I cannot help being apprehensive about the implementation of such a thing...Gummint's are renown for ad hoc band-aid applications to appease masses or vocal minorities.