ABC 4 Corners, investigation into animal cruelty

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Breeding them and killing them isnt the issue. They arent there to be tortured. They are still a living, breathing animal that has a brain and knows whats going on and can feel pain and fear. Just kill them quick and get it over and done with.

Actually ,a post that sums up a lot of juxtaposition in this thread.
My take on this ,is that "breeding them and killing them" actually is the issue here. I too ,like many here ,have worked ,at some stage of their careers, as casual labour in a food processing environment and been part of a culture that didn't care too much about animal welfare or rights or feelings or such. It was good money on school holidays, or between trade jobs ....whatever reasons that people take casual jobs in abbatoirs, or piggeries or cage hen batteries,feed lots ...hey the list goes on.
Animals are bred to be slaughtered, humanely or not ,the end result is the same. I have seen enough in my experiences in food processing, and seen enough docos on SBS.ABC,Nat.GEO...or any other number of "mobs" that want to show this sort of shock reality to know that this doesn't just happen in Indonesia..(I actually was more apalled with a show I saw not so long ago about a guy who went undercover in a yankee piggery and shot scenes that were comparable to anything being discussed here). A lot here are quick to jump on what is happening "over there" without giving too much thought that, on a (quantum based) measure of cruelty..the same thing is happening anywhere that we believe it is ok to breed /slaughter animals.
We build a multi million(billion)dollar industry around the concept of breeding and killing a (lesser) animal than ourselves, and are then indignant enough to complain when someone kills that animal(read slaughter/butcher) somewhat differently to the way "we" deem as humane.
To say "just kill them quick and get it over and done with" is like asking "is a hanging or bullet more humane because it is over a lot quicker, than having to endure the wait for the effects of a leathal injection to do it's ultimate work" The end result is the same ,yet there are many here among us who probably wouldn't care less which method was used as long as "we" retained the right to pass that judment on to anybody (or animal) we deem lower on "our" scale.
We (consumers..read in this instance"meat eaters") are the end user..we have a say in the matter, and that is not just to flame our indignation at someone who does exactly the same thing as we do ourselves,(just using a different manner) If you don't like the fact that we breed animals to eventually slaughter them....don't feed the machine. Yes I know the response to that..what of the jobs, the farmers, the truckies...we have built an industry around this (and every other multi billion dollar industry), to line the pockets of the the people who really don't care if you or I are particularly distressed with the way the Indonesians slaughter their cattle.
Despite the outcry over this(and I won't add to any religious debate going on here)..and the fact that an investigation has shown some dispicable handling of a slaughter, there actually is some sensibility of ritual in the halal slaughter, and I wonder do we have (if not show) the same reverence to another living thing when we slaughtewr and butcher our livestock to feed our need for meat.
Three more things very quickly..
I am not a green left wing vegitarian
I wonder why the same indignation as shown here hasn't been shown towards the way we process Indonesian (and other foreign) "meat"
And...I promise the next post I make will be car related!!!

[The Monty]

Im so glad all the aussie farmers, and people in the meat industry have now been cast up crap creek with no form of propulsion.

I love animals as much as the next person. But gee whiz guys, each one of you is on here every other day saying how these current affair programs are so sensationalised, and it is taken way out of context.
Yet you all jump on the bandwagon when one of them release footage of a handfull of the many Indonesian Abbotoirs doing something extremely nasty to an animal. The thing here is, it is an animal. Do you think that the halal way of killing them over here is any less distressing for the animal?
Do you not think that the condition of the ships is bad for them either?
The thing is, they are animals, bred for one purpose, and that is to be food. Yes, what we saw was inhumane, yes it is horrendous, but they are animals for food. We mustnt forget that.

Also, Im prepared to cop whatever criticism is thrown at me.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Im glad about the ban, but now we have the whinging from everyone who is going to lose a buck out of it wanting compensation.

yeh, people whinged when they shut down the asbestos mines too, the usual suspects taking up the case Barnaby Joyce etc.

So the farmers didnt know(or was it didnt want to know) what was happening to their precious animals, out of sight outta mind, very convenient.....

I will say that you are consistent in a most unhelpful way. As usual you seek to blame someone. This time it is Barnaby and the farmers, I'm surprised you haven't mentioned Alan Jones or Andrew Bolt.

I guess you have answers for:

• Australian workers/companies left in limbo whist this mess gets sorted
• Thousands of livestock in holding yards left in limbo whilst this mess gets sorted
• Probably thousands of Indonesians now facing the prospect of not being feed the protein they were hoping for whilst this mess gets sorted out.

So why don't you for once get out of your established mode of operation and surprise the forum, instead of bagging people, what is your solution?

Eagerly await your thoughtful wisdom.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by cheap

I will say that you are consistent in a most unhelpful way. As usual you seek to blame someone. .

isnt that the problem here, all the people in the affected industry want to have either the rest of us bail them out(effectively blaming me) for not looking out for their own business, or continue the cruelty as usual until they have worked out another way to earn a buck.

[Cooper69S]

Originally Posted by The Monty

The thing is, they are animals, bred for one purpose, and that is to be food. Yes, what we saw was inhumane, yes it is horrendous, but they are animals for food. We mustnt forget that.

Also, Im prepared to cop whatever criticism is thrown at me.

I don't think you need criticism. the idea of "humane slaughtering" is a bit of an oxymoron in itself. they're being killed anyway - nothing particularly humane about that, and it's what they were bred for - to be killed and eaten. in any case, animals have been slaughtered "inhumanely" for thousands of years (and mostly not by people) and to some extent its just the cycle of life. animals get treated worse in the wild than anything humans are likely to do to them. by all means try to improve things, but this national outrage and full export bans and whatever is over the top, IMO

[The Monty]

Originally Posted by sudszy

isnt that the problem here, all the people in the affected industry want to have either the rest of us bail them out(effectively blaming me) for not looking out for their own business, or continue the cruelty as usual until they have worked out another way to earn a buck.

But why is it the farmers fault and the workers in the Australian industry that have to suffer? Your saying the Beef industry deserves to crash, and that anyone who looses money along the way, thats good?

[Road Games]

After watching numerous doco's on this subject i am actually speechless ...

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by zdcol71

Actually ,a post that sums up a lot of juxtaposition in this thread.

I know the idea of breeding and killing probably isnt the most humane thing but we are the top of the food chain and eating other animals will go on forever. If we are going to breed and bring new life into the world for the purpose of food then the least we can do is give them a decent death. I will die someday but that doesnt mean I deserve to be tortured and die a slow death.

[Romulus]

Originally Posted by The Monty

But why is it the farmers fault and the workers in the Australian industry that have to suffer? Your saying the Beef industry deserves to crash, and that anyone who looses money along the way, thats good?

No, absolutely not. I feel for the pastoralists and graziers who raise these animals to be sold, who now have their livelyhood thrown up in the air. Farmers should be compensated for the incovenience for what has occured. Many are aware this treatment has been going on for years with their animals. MLA, Livecorp and the Australian government (both sides of politics) have been aware of the goings on within the live cattle and sheep exports for many years. The Howard government introduced a ban of live sheep exports to the Middle East in 2006 due to the poor treatment of sheep. It's rich to hear the Nationals up in arms when they were in a coalition with the Libs when live sheep exports were halted.


From an article from The Age, 19 November 2009.
Eid al-Adha, or the Festival of Sacrifice, is to celebrated soon, and again Australian sheep have been sent en masse to the Middle East for slaughter. The live export industry is becoming increasingly irrelevant yet the Australian Government continues to bow to the live export lobby at the expense of animal suffering.

Last year 40,000 sheep died on their way to slaughter in the Middle East. It's not a quick death — they died from such things as starvation, disease, injury and pneumonia. Australia's live exporters measure their success by the number of animals still standing at the end of the sea voyage. They tout mortality statistics as though they are something to be proud of, using percentages rather than the real numbers that tell a side of the story that they don't want people to think too closely about. The reality is that tens of thousands of animals that embark on these sea voyages out of Australia every year will not walk off at the other end.

For them at least, the ordeal is over. For the others, it's just the beginning.

Those that do disembark, some 4 million sheep every year, may continue to suffer from illness and heat stress. They arrive in countries with few or no animal welfare laws to protect them and are often handled, transported and slaughtered in a way that would be considered unacceptable in Australia.

This November again marks one of the worst periods for animal suffering in the Middle East. During the three-day Islamic Festival of Sacrifice thousands of sheep are slaughtered in homes, on footpaths and in overcrowded abattoirs. The Australian Government condemns sheep to this fate with full knowledge of what occurs. They do it despite the fact that live sheep exports can no longer be defended on religious, cultural, ethical or economic grounds. Perhaps most insulting; they do it knowing that our involvement in this trade is not only costing Australian jobs but is making just a token contribution to the economy.

This year has been a turning point for the RSPCA's campaign to end the live sheep trade because the final argument to continue it – economics – is now effectively off the table. Independent economists, ACIL Tasman, have revealed that live sheep exports are actually costing jobs and stifling our meat processing sector. Contrary to industry claims, we now know that farmers don't need live sheep exports and in fact many are already moving into other, more lucrative areas; live sheep exports do not underpin the price of sheepmeat domestically; and phasing out the trade would have a modest impact on farmers and the economy. In fact, Australia is missing out on potential value-adding opportunities because our meat export industry is being forced to unfairly compete with live sheep exports, which are heavily subsidised in the Middle East.

The live export lobby talks about the industry as if it is an entrenched Australian tradition. It isn't. Live sheep exports represent one market opportunity. But it is a market opportunity that comes at a huge cost to the animals involved. It has never made sense to the RSPCA why we would force animals to endure the stress of long distance transport overseas, just to be slaughtered when they get there. Not when our sheep meat exports are four times more valuable to the economy than live sheep exports ($1.5 billion versus $341 million in 2008). Australia has Halal-certified export abattoirs supplying Halal meat to customers throughout the Middle East and there is remarkable opportunity for growth. Meat processors in Western Australia have signalled that if the live sheep trade ceased they could increase their capacity almost immediately, creating 2000 jobs in that state. These are jobs that truly support Australian regional communities.

Unfortunately, it seems that there is too much reliance on information provided by live exporters – a group acting solely in their own interests. They do not represent the interests of farmers and they certainly do not represent the interests of animals. Their efforts to improve the welfare of sheep traded in this market will only ever go to the extent that they do not impinge on profits. Regardless of these efforts, no amount of regulation will change the fact that sending sheep over such long distances is stressful and inhumane. Nor will it change the fact that we relinquish all control over Australian animals as soon as they get off the ship.

It's time for a positive discussion about new opportunities for Australia's sheep industry. Australian opportunities that will create jobs, boost the economy and markedly improve animal welfare. A future free from live sheep exports is achievable but it will take political courage. We hope it comes from this Government and before one more animal is sacrificed to this cruel trade.

Heather Neil is chief executive of RSPCA Australia.


The above article could just as well be applied to the cattle industry. MLA argues the cattle sitting in holding yards may have to sent off to Australian abattoirs and will flood the Australian market with cheap meat. Wait, what? They'd rather have the cattle sent overseas, inflating local prices and at the expense of Australian industry and Australian jobs? Who's interested do they serve?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by sudszy

isnt that the problem here, all the people in the affected industry want to have either the rest of us bail them out(effectively blaming me) for not looking out for their own business, or continue the cruelty as usual until they have worked out another way to earn a buck.

So that I understand, you seem to be suggesting:

The rackaroo working 16hr days in the outback, he is part of the problem, and now he's blaming "you"
And
The station owner trying to keep his business running, his family fed + say 60 rackaroo's in work, he is part of the problem and now he's blaming "you"
And
The truck driver hauling the beasts to the holding yard, he is part of the problem and now he's blaming "you"
And
The captain of the ship (and his crew), he is part of the problem and they're blaming "you"
And
The Indonesian workers who do their job properly, but now haven't got any beast to work with, and face unemployment with hungry kids, they're part of the problem, blaming "you"
And on and n...

Once again, you've managed to focus the problem, when will you provide a solution?

Eagerly awaiting a small part of your hard earnt wisdom to show itself.

[zdcol71]

I read an interesting article quite a few years ago ,where the French (of all peoples') government had come down hard on a multinational fast food outlet (narrows it down a bit ,hey) who had asked to get on board with another multinational electronics company(who has some of the biggest defence contracts going), in utilising laser technology to "beam" their golden ar...(whoops,sorry nearly gave away their corporate identity)....logo onto clouds! The same two companies will be the ones whose names will be international headlines when we realise the most radical dining/eating revolution in mankinds history...by that, I mean the first extra terrestrial restaraunt. A Mc Donalds dinner on the moon or Mars ( with the assistance of General Electrics) is not the realm of marketing wet dreams or pure sci-fi any more ...it is discussed reality..and the point I make is that anyone who thinks that these two companies will treat the product which will enable this marketing/sales opportunity to flourish, as anything more than a product to be butchered /slaughtered as quickly and efficently as is economically possible, is kidding themselves. I've seen a feed lot in Roma...how many of us has seen a feed lot in what used to be the Amazon rainforest? A couple of abbatoirs in Indonesia is not really the problem. (albeit..very distressing and contemporary)

[Scott]

I'd not seen this thread til now but I am not surprised to see the reaction of "ban the exports, that'll fix them"...

The media have sensationalised what is a truly barbaric and inhumane practice being practiced by a few to represent all.

The cattle shown had obviously not just hopped of a boat from Australia, they had been Indonesian residents for at least 5-6 months. Who knows if it was Australian beef, they could have come from anywhere.

Are our people and Government so arrogant as to think that our moral stand will do anything to curb their ways? I guess so. Reality is that if we hold up supply, they will source it from South America... or South Africa.. or wherever they feel like it. The only pain they will feel is the lack of supply of about the cheapest meat on the planet.

When a beast leaves Australia, we have no idea or control over where it goes, who it goes with or what its future holds from our last wave goodbye. For all we know our cattle are taken to a resort to give rides to disadvantaged kids from Beverly Hills.

My point is this - Yes it is horrible to see and we should try and stop it. Doing what we have done is meaningless and self sabotaging. The fact that our Government has acted so quickly on this is embarrassing to me but not quite as much as the fact that our own Minister for Agriculture can act so surprised. Seriously - he didn't know?

You must be joking. Wake up Australia, the Government have known of these practices for ever. Their refusal to acknowledge the matter until a groundswell of support is mustered is damning evidence that they only care about grabbing some votes, albeit at the expense of a multi-billion dollar generating industry.

Get on with it and try to fix the problem - cut the bull **** smoke and mirrors.

edit - Anyone got a plan for the thousands of animals heading back from the port? How about the next shipment that were still packing their bags?

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

I know the idea of breeding and killing probably isnt the most humane thing but we are the top of the food chain and eating other animals will go on forever. If we are going to breed and bring new life into the world for the purpose of food then the least we can do is give them a decent death. I will die someday but that doesnt mean I deserve to be tortured and die a slow death.

Again, a somewhat contradictory idea...we tell everything that we believe needs to be told, that we are the top of the food chain!! We get pretty ****ed when a tiger or lion decides they are the top of the food chain and eats us
"Eating other animals" has no relevance to any argument when (if we accept we are living in a modern world),... we do not need to live on animal flesh.
You certainly don't deserve to be tortured and die a slow death but you weren't bred for the end result of just that, and I guess that is my point...
(my job is pretty stressful and sometimes I wish I was "just" a cow in a paddock ready for the slaughter, but I'm not sure that that makes any of us smart enough to make that call)

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by cheap

Once again, you've managed to focus the problem, when will you provide a solution?

Eagerly awaiting a small part of your hard earnt wisdom to show itself.

Dont see anyone here with a solution - other than giving my money away.

I feel sorry for some of those affected who had no idea, but that's unfortunately how the cooky crumbles in the business world. But really anyone involved in this industry should have been asking themselves what is happening to these animals(im sure even truck drivers notice they are transporting live cattle!) when they deliver them to the ships? (going to a nice hobby farm in Indonesia to provide milk for the rest of their days?.....get outta here)

There are no guarantees a market is going to remain like it is forever or that governments, including our own, wont shutdown industries because of health reasons, humane or animal cruelty reasons.
The government didnt offer compensation for James Hardie investors when the **** hit the fan on asbestos, nor did it compensate the guys that drove the trucks from the mine to the factory.

I suppose you want to see compensation for those that will lose their jobs in the cigarette industry, or compensation to Coles and Woolies for not being able to flog as many ciggies when sales eventually plummet due to the brown packaging too?

Im the one that's meant to fix the everyone's problems?.... the only thing you are doing is attacking me, perhaps you can get out your cheque book and throw your money at all those affected.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by Scott

The cattle shown had obviously not just hopped of a boat from Australia, they had been Indonesian residents for at least 5-6 months. Who knows if it was Australian beef, they could have come from anywhere.

You might want to watch the four corners episode, again. They referred to an animal with Australian tags on it.

Originally Posted by Scott

Are our people and Government so arrogant as to think that our moral stand will do anything to curb their ways? I guess so. Reality is that if we hold up supply, they will source it from South America... or South Africa.. or wherever they feel like it. The only pain they will feel is the lack of supply of about the cheapest meat on the planet.

Drug dealers justify their practices using similiar logic, it aint right either.

[Auslandau]

So thats what it has come to ......

Cattle Farmers = Drug dealers, James Hardie and the Marlboro man ..... I find that offensive and cannot find the comparison that you have clearly stated and I do not want it discussed further.

Just to add ...... while some of these very topical discussions are enjoyable and allow people to have a say and state an opinion .... AFF is first and foremost an automotive forums and threads such as these will not be a spring board for some members to constantly use it as their own soap box with absolute minimal contribution to the rest of the Forums.

If people want to push their own agendas and have no interest in the rest of the community I suggest they do a search on Google and find a more appropriate Forum.