Time to stand up

[Falcman0o7]

I know of way to many blokes that have taken thier own lives due to the mental tourment from a woman. Using the kids against the man is a huge one as the woman seems to have all the power over the children and the man knows the long wait ahead to even see his own kids. It would be painful. We have bugger all rights, And you can pretty much blame the men that are ****** for that.
My brother was in a very serious, abusive and dangerous relationship with a mentally insane woman!!!
He was a mess. The kids made him stay but he had no choice after a while and left. The kids were taken away.
He was the only one questioned most of the time when HE rang the cops.
It's the lack of rights we have to see our own children is what really upsets the bloke to the point of even pysical abuse against the woman. By the way i can't stand ****** that belt woman! Makes me sick. Some men are bloody pigs.

[Franco Cozzo]

You can see a line being drawn in the sand in this thread, i know with my business partner he holds that 'traditional' view of women and the never lay hands on one regardless of the situation.

Alright, no problems, that's cool.

But he will flat out refuse to hire a female apprentice, solely based on gender stereotypes and I raised the question if he had kids with his girlfriend but she was earning more $$$, if he would be a stay at home dad, and he also flat out refused saying its a mans job to be the bread winner, regardless if it would put his family in a worse position.

Seems to be the Don't ever hit women' group hold gender stereotypes close to heart.

Again in not advocating violence against anyone, just my observations.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

You can see a line being drawn in the sand in this thread, i know with my business partner he holds that 'traditional' view of women and the never lay hands on one regardless of the situation.

Alright, no problems, that's cool.

But he will flat out refuse to hire a female apprentice, solely based on gender stereotypes and I raised the question if he had kids with his girlfriend but she was earning more $$$, if he would be a stay at home dad, and he also flat out refused saying its a mans job to be the bread winner, regardless if it would put his family in a worse position.

Seems to be the Don't ever hit women' group hold gender stereotypes close to heart.
Again in not advocating violence against anyone, just my observations.

And there is no crime with this Big Damo. Stereotypes are a bad naughty thing for modern progressives who want everyone to be the same. But despite these assertions, there is a reason that stereotypes exist, because there is a whole lot of truth to them. Men and women are different and have different roles to play, even in today's confused society...

And yes, a man's job is to look after his family whether his wife also works or not. I have no respect for any other concept...

[jpblue1000]

And there lies half of the problem!

JP

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by superyob

And there is no crime with this Big Damo. Stereotypes are a bad naughty thing for modern progressives who want everyone to be the same. But despite these assertions, there is a reason that stereotypes exist, because there is a whole lot of truth to them. Men and women are different and have different roles to play, even in today's confused society...

And yes, a man's job is to look after his family whether his wife also works or not. I have no respect for any other concept...

How do you feel about women being out of the kitchen? Or being allowed to vote?

This isn't the 1950s you know...men and women play different roles, but they can easily be interchanged (a woman being the bread winner and a stay at home dad) or suppliment eachother (both earning the same amount, you know, equal....)

Half of the problem with male on female domestic violence is probably men stuck in the past who think women are there purely to serve them. Enforcing them is not helping the issue!

[russellw]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

How do you feel about women being out of the kitchen? Or being allowed to vote?

You mean they are allowed to do both these things?

Let's keep it civil please. Holding so-called traditional or modern views is not the catalyst for domestic violence as innumerable studies on the subject have shown both here and overseas and it's too important a topic to be sidetracked by such debate.

Cheers
Russ

[XG_Falcon]

I've been turning this over in my mind for most of the day.

Last night I was out late with friends having a few drinks in town, we had a good time but as the night went on we saw quite a few examples of partner abuse happening about the place. Ranging anywhere from verbal abuse (which often escalated) to physical violence.

What really struck me about witnessing it all was that when the police or security became involved the victim would often stand up for their abuser. This has got me thinking that a massive part of the issue is that a large number of people become afflicted by Stockholm Syndrome. Sometimes even understanding their attacker's perspective or making excuses for them. Reading statistics and reports on the topic only reinforce this idea in my head. In many cases, the abuse is allowed to continue because the victim is still in love...

Both men and women can be abused, that is obvious. What tends to differentiate the style of violence is that males and females are very different beings, so we naturally attack with different methods. This isn't a hard and fast rule but men usually use physical strength to dominate, women more often use emotional cunning to hurt their foes. Usually the two sexes employ very different methods to extract pain but both forms of violence are just as toxic as the other at their core.

Honestly seeing all this aforementioned stuff last night reminded me why I stopped going out drinking on the weekends. All of what I saw was alcohol and/or drug fueled. It seems like this is often the root of the issue, maybe we have a systemic cultural problem revolving around alcohol and binge drinking. I don't know, it just made me feel a bit sick to see a young lady get punched square in the face by her inebriated partner then see her defend him when he was in cuffs. I have a feeling he was actually glad the cops rocked up to stop him being torn apart by a group of blokes that witnessed it though.

Some people transform when they drink, it brings Kesey to my mind "...every time he put the bottle to his mouth, he don't suck out of it, it sucks out of him..." It's entirely possible that guy that hit his woman is a nice bloke when he's sober, he was about my age too that really worried me. Clearly the problem isn't going away if it's happening between such a young couple.

It's like pulling weeds - you can't get rid of them by focusing on the parts that are clearly visible, you have to dig a bit deeper and attack the root of the issue. Somehow, as a society we have to get a number of separate but related issues under control so that we can stop domestic abuse. Violence usually doesn't happen without a reason; mental illness, alcohol abuse and drug abuse stand out to me as major catalysts for domestic abuse. Having said that, there is no excuse for being a wife basher and we have to let it be known that if you behave like that we won't accept you to live in our society. I don't care what your story is, if you act like an animal you should be treated like an animal.

I'm also sick of hearing about the "cycle of abuse" - the notion that because a person was abused, they must continue the trend. That is a cop-out and this argument shouldn't hold a drop of water in court. When I was young and dumb, I had my day in court due to driving like a tool. My case was last and I sat there listening to every case that day. Two of the cases heard were domestic abuse cases. Both were men hitting their female partners, both men had been drunk and on drugs at the time, both of them were full of excuses and neither of them were sent to jail. The judge gave them both suspended sentences. Even the guy that repeatedly beat his wife unconscious, humiliated her in front of the kids and had a history of it got off with a slap on the wrist. He gave the thumbs up to his wife behind his back, she was crying the entire time. I wanted to break his thumb off.

Judges need to throw the book at these guys. Maybe it's different now, they might take a harder line on these scumbags. I don't know - this was three years ago.

I might think too much but some things are worth thinking about. Rant over for now.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by russellw

Holding so-called traditional or modern views is not the catalyst for domestic violence as innumerable studies on the subject have shown both here and overseas and it's too important a topic to be sidetracked by such debate.

Cheers
Russ

All due respect Russell I don't believe that to be true and to common a response to one of the deep seated problems in this debate. just because you've never hit a woman does not mean your attitudes haven't contributed to a society which accepts it

The concept of male entitlement created by gender roles is associated with domestic violence. Men have been taught through social roles modeling and the media that they are entitled to the attention and services of women. Women are required to listen, be supportive, enhance their partners’ status with other men, fulfill the man’s sexual needs, and care for their children. Traditional gender roles maintain the expectation that women are required to cook, clean and maintain the household. Gender roles have created a dynamic within intimate relationships that maintain women as subservient and men as power holders and decision makers, which is ultimately detrimental to the health and survival of women. Often in an abusive relationship, if a woman does not live up to these unrealistic and strict expectations, it is license for the man to be violent.

Gender roles are so pervasive and insidious that men (and women) don’t even realize how seriously they affect and inform our behavior.

Community attitudes on womens position and roles are an important barometer on gender relations. They illustrate the way people respond when they witness violence, whether victims feel confident to seek help, and whether perpetrators are likely to be excused or held to account for their actions. Changing attitudes is crucial to preventing crises in the longer term.
https://theconversation.com/uk/topic...e-in-australia

men are more likely to engage in domestic violence against their female partners if they hold negative attitudes towards women, hold traditional gender role attitudes that legitimise violence as a method of resolving conflict or as a private matter, or have low levels of support for gender equality.


Domestic violence committed by men against women is also greater in communities with more traditional (‘macho’) ideals of masculinity, and strictly defined gender roles around paid work (for men) and unpaid work (for women). Negative attitudes to women are stronger in particularly
masculine contexts, such as sporting subcultures, and are influenced by the media we consume, including pornography, television, music and film
wwww.vinnies.org.au/icms_docs192177_Submission_on_Inquiry_into_Domesti c_Violence.pdf




JP

[superyob]

So how are your progressive values working out for society JP? There is more frustration and unsurety than ever. Suicide rates are up, society is a fractured parody of what it once was, morality is an obsolete concept, yet you blame traditional values instead of looking at the abject failure of the ideology you espouse. People who were not even around in the 1950s point to this era with mocking contempt and blame its attitudes for every ill in society. So how do you explain the recent spate of violence against women by young males who should be a by product of a more 'enlightened' age? They were not around in the 50s. The 50s ended 55 years ago.

You state ' Traditional gender roles maintain the expectation that women are required to cook, clean and maintain the household. Gender roles have created a dynamic within intimate relationships that maintain women as subservient and men as power holders and decision makers, which is ultimately detrimental to the health and survival of women.' Are you saying that all women are somehow made to do this against their will and that us nasty evil men look down on this work? Have you asked the opinion of every man and woman that actually benefits from a working traditional arrangement and has no problem with it? Why is it still the predominant (albeit very much under leftist attack) arrangement in society? Could that be because it actually works? No, it is not perfect but it is far more preferable to the destruction that progressive values will wrought on society.

How about you ask a grub who hits women, why they do that instead of using fallacious post modern argument to attack the traditional cornerstone of society?

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by superyob

So how are your progressive values working out for society JP? There is more frustration and unsurety than ever. Suicide rates are up, society is a fractured parody of what it once was, morality is an obsolete concept, yet you blame traditional values instead of looking at the abject failure of the ideology you espouse.

So what you're saying is, this rock that i have keeps away bears, right? Because there are no bears near this rock?

Just becuase those things are happening, its doesn't mean the 'lack' of traditional values are the cause.

However there is a direct connection between 'you're my wife, make me a sammich' and domestic violence, in the very sense that some males think they own females, and that IS related to traditional values.

[jpblue1000]

Super yob, I make no comparison to any age, especially 1950's, perhaps you are projecting an ideal age for your life as being better. I also make no judgement on today but simply illustrate half of the problem being social gender roles and negative stereotyping. Perhaps the raw nerve that was touched helped you jump to conclusions.
I made no connection to todays perpetrator and an enlightenment of thinking suggesting simply those ideas of social gender bias prevalent in our culture contribute negatively to domestic violence triggers and factors.
Suicide is not rising per generation according to the Australian bureau of stats.
Most women are not forced into roles, they go freely into the role expected of them by society, that breeds into them from the day their sex is known. Baby boys and girls are treated differently, subconsciously and deliberately by people such that by a few years old they know their place and are learning their future. Now I will speak of an enlightened age and corners of our society, enlightened parents are raising their children differently to the 'norm' in an attempt to break social stereotypings effects on their futures.
I don't need to ask every man and women, there have been plenty of studies already, plenty of research, and its plain to see that gender stereotypes are half the problem of women's rights in our 1950's backwater culture!
I also don't need to ask the perpetrators of domestic violence why, that is also very well documented and freely available evidence should one wish to open their eyes to a challenging position on our culture, one whose 'cornerstone' is unequal rights and no equality between the sexes.
JP

[russellw]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Suicide is not rising per generation according to the Australian bureau of stats.JP

You are correct in saying that the suicide rate has largely been in decline from the 1963 peak of 17.9/100,000 to around 10.5/100,000 in recent years although the male percentage of the total has been rising since the mid 80's although I'm not quite sure that the correlation is between that and domestic violence.

However, what does seem clear to me is that if we accept the reasonable assumption that traditional role modelled relationships (which seem to be viewed as the culprit here) are considerably less prevalent than modern relationships how more than a third of Australian women have experienced domestic violence - or is it the case that traditional (let's call them unequal) relationships are still more prevalent than we might like to believe as a society?

Indeed, using the three major empirical studies that have been conducted over the last 20 years as a guide, the problem is getting worse with 23% of women having experienced domestic abuse in the 1996 survey and 34% in the most recent. Furthermore, while the rate of domestic homicide has been in decline during the last 25 years (although this year is likely to be an exception) from 1.8/100,000 in 1990 to ~1.1/100,000 in 2013 both these figures are significantly higher that the 0.7/100,000 rate during the 1960's which one would have thought typified the traditional domestic model.

My point, is that it isn't the domestic model that is responsible for domestic violence per se but rather individual attitudes and those can apply regardless whether the relationship is traditional or modern - whatever those two things actually mean anyway.

Cheers
Russ

[chamb0]

Russ the 'traditional' model isn't the culprit, or on its own responsible for, domestic violence but the research identifies unequal gender relations as being one of several risk factors. Both individual attitudes and wider social structures are both implicated.

Decades of research, including by the World Health Organisation, has demonstrated attitudes supportive of violence are linked with broader views endorsing gender inequality. In other words, the less support people have for equal gender relations, the more likely they are to hold attitudes that minimise and excuse men’s violence towards women and blame the victims.

https://theconversation.com/young-au...lso-hope-47405

Originally Posted by World Health Organisation

*Risk factors for being a perpetrator include low education, exposure to child maltreatment or witnessing violence in the family, harmful use of alcohol, attitudes accepting of violence and gender inequality.

*Risk factors for being a victim of intimate partner and sexual violence include low education, witnessing violence between parents, exposure to abuse during childhood and attitudes accepting violence and gender inequality.

[...]

Factors found to be associated with intimate partner and sexual violence occur within individuals, families and communities and wider society.

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs239/en/

Some abusers will seek out communities which espouse fixed gender roles and female submission to her male partner, because these communities will often help the man keep his partner in line.

[russellw]

"Unequal gender relationships" is an interesting term and one open to interpretation as to what defines unequal but I certainly wouldn't doubt that an absence of equality and the attitudes that can come with that (superiority/ownership) are a factor in domestic violence.

But then so too are economic pressures, alcohol or drug abuse and the other factors mentioned above and I frankly didn't like where the tone of this thread was heading with the view that a traditionally modelled relationship was, in itself, prima facie cause.

Somewhat ironically, the situation should have improved since the onset of the women's liberation movement as it largely removed one of the major obstacles to equality which was that of economic independence.

Certainly the 1960's model of one working parent (almost exclusively male), mother at home raising children and maybe working part time as they reached school age and the absence of realistic career paths for women because they were expected to marry and have children created a number of barriers (both economic and social) to equality.

Forgetting, for the moment, the arguments about whether we have achieved equality in the workplace; the fact remains that there are now career options for women; the norm is now a two working partner household (whether there are children or not) and women are generally more empowered in controlling their own lives yet the DV statistics continue to rise.

I'm not saying I have answers - I don't. I just don't want to see simple answers applied to a complex issue.

Cheers
Russ

[b0son]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

our culture, one whose 'cornerstone' is unequal rights and no equality between the sexes.

??? we have equal rights, equal pay, etc. in what areas are we lacking?

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by russellw

women are generally more empowered in controlling their own lives yet the DV statistics continue to rise.


Russ

The REPORTING of domestic violence has increased the actual rates now and through out history is unknown.

The fact that women are more empowered means they are more capable of reporting what is happening to them.

It was not a criminal offence to rape your wife in Australia until the 1980's

No point reporting DV to police in the 1960's as it was none of their business.

I don't hold the 'traditional' model of relationships responsible for domestic violence.

"For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong."

I was born in the 1960's it was a great time, but somethings have changed for the better.