When is a replica not a replica?

[jaydee]

Watching a show on SBS about rebuilding the E type jag lightweight race car called "The car money cant buy" (ironic, because they sold them for a million pounds and the originals are worth 5 million pounds).

So back in the day, 1960's, they were going to build 16 lightweight aluminium bodied E types for racing. They set aside 16 chassis numbers, but only ended up building 12, so now they're building 4 brand new ones. They're being hand built to spec as they were way back when, even found the original press to press out the bonnets.

So now we have 4 brand new E types built in 2015 but to exacting standards of the day with period correct chassis numbers.
The organisers of the Goodwood say they wont permit them to race because they're replicas.

Another automotive guru says "Unquestionably they are NOT a replica".
So if a guy does up an XY Fairmont as a GT, that's a replica or tribute car, but apart from year of manufacture, are these E types a replica?

Me, I don't think so, they're just built a bit later, if they'd been built a year after the originals, would that make them a replica instead of 50 years later?

[Bill M]

E type jag lightweight race car called "The car money cant buy" (ironic, because they sold them for a million pounds and the originals are worth 5 million pounds).

That is a clue as to what the market thinks. It still a 2015 Jag.

[Pepscobra]

If they are being built by the Factory and the factory wants to call them genuine, then that's what they are.
A replica would be something built by a third party.
That's my opinion.

[arronm]

They are genuine. The compliance plate says so and all the numbers match.

[Stefan]

Call them reissue...

Electric guitars are often reissued like a 1957 fender Stratocaster is worth 25-50k depending on condition. A guitar made now to 1957 specs is made by the same company and can be bought for 2500. They call it a 57 reissue.

Its not a 57 strat no matter what anyone says. Its a 57 reissue.

The jag is in the same vein me thinks

[FPV+fteT3]

Its not a replica its a new 2015 light weight Jaguar. A replica Jag light weight IMO would be a butchered 1960's E Type made to look like something its not.

[2011G6E]

You can in fact buy brand new Morris Minor, E-Type Jag, and MGB bodies from places in England. I think they're made in Singapore. They have all the known weaknesses and rust traps fixed and adressed, and will fit all original parts.
Given the huge numbers of new parts manufacturers in England, you can actually build a brand new E Type or MGB using all brand new parts. It is absolutely the same (with problems sorted) as an original one down to the nuts and bolts...just made with better materials.
This is just one company that popped up in a quick we search that does full brand new strengthened shells...http://www.martinrobey.com/body-shells/...but there are others I have seen in magazines.
In England it isn't a problem registering these, but in Australia I think you would find some bureaucrats demanding it meet all the standards of a brand new car unless you could convince them it's a kit car or something.

I think the Yanks do it with mid-50's Chevs and late sixties Camaros and Mustangs as well.
Once again, no idea what the authorities here would have to say about them...

[Sprint]

I watched the same program.

These are a replica to me if they haven't been built in the day on the factory floor.

[FairmontGS]

Heart says original but head says replica. There's more to it than just the same factory - 2015 isn't 1963 and the end products would reflect that. I mean if Ford has set up a side line and hand built 16 XB GT coupes last year and stamped them JG66 I would still want to own mine instead. Somethings can't just be reimagined..

[OzJavelin]

I watched that show too. I agree with FPV .. It's a 2015 (or whatever year it was filmed) release of a lightweight Jaguar. They are built by Jaguar, using as close to the original methods they practically can. Most importantly they are using the original, unassigned 6 chassis numbers for the planned remaining cars which weren't built originally.

Jaguar are just finishing the build series they started in the sixties. They are just a bit late

Unlike the original build run, these cars have no rich racing pedigree.

Good luck to anyone who has the $$$ to buy one. They look like an awesome car.

[LTDHO]

Original, just later build.

[JG66ME]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

You can in fact buy brand new Morris Minor, E-Type Jag, and MGB bodies from places in England. I think they're made in Singapore. They have all the known weaknesses and rust traps fixed and adressed, and will fit all original parts.
Given the huge numbers of new parts manufacturers in England, you can actually build a brand new E Type or MGB using all brand new parts. It is absolutely the same (with problems sorted) as an original one down to the nuts and bolts...just made with better materials.
This is just one company that popped up in a quick we search that does full brand new strengthened shells...http://www.martinrobey.com/body-shells/...but there are others I have seen in magazines.
In England it isn't a problem registering these, but in Australia I think you would find some bureaucrats demanding it meet all the standards of a brand new car unless you could convince them it's a kit car or something.

I think the Yanks do it with mid-50's Chevs and late sixties Camaros and Mustangs as well.
Once again, no idea what the authorities here would have to say about them...

Here is another.

http://www.bmh-ltd.com/index.html

http://www.bmh-ltd.com/mgbshell.htm

In the UK they don't bat an eyelid. Buy a rusty MGB. Transfer the vin to a new shell. Jobs a goodun. Enter a car show. Win concourse.

[ford71V8]

Originally Posted by Stefan

Call them reissue...

Electric guitars are often reissued like a 1957 fender Stratocaster is worth 25-50k depending on condition. A guitar made now to 1957 specs is made by the same company and can be bought for 2500. They call it a 57 reissue.

Its not a 57 strat no matter what anyone says. Its a 57 reissue.

The jag is in the same vein me thinks

i think this is a good way to look at it.

But your example should have used the Fender Jaguar

[Iggle Piggle]

Sounds like they are genuine MY15 E-types.

Originally Posted by Stefan

Call them reissue...

Electric guitars are often reissued like a 1957 fender Stratocaster is worth 25-50k depending on condition. A guitar made now to 1957 specs is made by the same company and can be bought for 2500. They call it a 57 reissue.

Its not a 57 strat no matter what anyone says. Its a 57 reissue.

The jag is in the same vein me thinks

What about a 1969 Fender Stratocaster, original pick-ups, maple neck, strung upside down for a left-handed...

[superyob]

This is not a case of trying to replicate a performance spec Jag from a base model one such as XY Fairmont to XY Falcon Gt. That is a replica. Surely these 4 new Jags are the real deal. They are factory built. They just have 2015 plates...

[Tex Scrotum]

I also watched this program and being a big E-type and Jaguar fan I was very interested in the builds.

Although I loved the way Jaguar went about making these "new" cars, I have to say that they are not in the same realm as an original.

The first reason is the way the new lightweights where built. The new cars were built to such a high standards, where as the originals were built to be raced and not to be concoursed.

Also obviously the new cars have no history and what history they acquire after a few decades will probably never match the originals early history.

The other reason I don't think they are a true lightweight E-type is the very reason they were built.
The originals were built for one reason and that was to win races!
The new cars were built because a big company wanted to cash in some of it's history.

These historic race cars are more than the sum of their parts, a lot of it's all about emotion and history, something replication can't produce.

Anyway it was an interesting exercise if only because the wife got to see what a $12 million dollar car looks like and the lengths even big companies will go to, to relive an era when some of the most beautiful race cars were produced!

[Peter B - CV8]

It's a "continuation model" & the only tenous connection to the original model is the fact that the chassis numbers are based on the original, unfilled, production run.

[Dr Terry]

A few essential points are missing here.

These new cars are NOT being made by Jaguar.

Most of the major mechanical components are NOT original, i.e. drivetrain & suspension, they are modern re-creations, again most NOT made by Jaguar.

So what do we have, a modern re-creation using SOME original dies, original design, originally 'assigned' chassis numbers, using modern materials & updated production techniques, bespoke built, but again NOT by Jaguar.

At best they are an authentic replica.

Dr Terry

[Xauterus]

Why the need to classify them into a category. They are nice recreations of interesting cars from the past. Maybe too much time has been spent creating their value.

[flooded one]

I think Genuine myself if Jaguar reissues it. where as the with someone buying a XY Fairmont and building it to GT spec is a replica.

[Dr Terry]

I got the impression that being Goodwood it would be all about racing 'historic' racing cars of a certain age, say over 40 or 50 years.

These new 'replicas' or whatever are neither historic or of a certain 'age'.

Dr Terry

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

What about a 1969 Fender Stratocaster, original pick-ups, maple neck, strung upside down for a left-handed...

That's kinda like a GTHO raced by Alan Moffat...versus just a GTHO. Just Makes it that much better.

It was JH's birthday last week and I did watch a few videos on youtube....one word "AWESOME"

[outback_ute]

There have been a few 'continuation' cars, eg Lola T70 or Aston Martin DB4 Zagatos in the 1980s.

I wonder if the cars can be registered, because they are 2015 manufacture not 1963-4, the tv show did not address this.

As for racing, Lord March can make his own rules. I can see the case though, you might compare it to the local Grp C & A cars where even a car that was built in period but not raced cannot be raced today.

Also a replica must be a replica in all aspects, eg there are Porsche 550 Spyders available now with Subaru engines. That is a kit car not a replica in my book.

[MrEL]

Why not do the obvious thing to see just how much difference new manufacturing methods have made.
Put an original original up against one of these new originals.
It would be an interesting race.

[nuthin' fancy]

The originl language out of the UK was that if, for example, a car won Le Mans and the factory then issued a car similar to the winning car, it was a replica (IIRC MG did this in the 1930s). So a replica was a factory produced product. Anything after that (such as an XY Fairmont to a GT) was a copy.

Over time, as long as the cars are a quality product, the market will be more accepting.

In 1965 there were 12 GT 350 Shelby Mustang convertibles made. In the late 1970s another six with continuation production numbers were produced by a company associated with Carrol Shelby. Now there is not much difference in the value of the original 12 or the subsequent 6.

[last fairlane]

When Jaguar made the E type I dont know how many
just say 100000 then they went to the XJS and built so many
they wouldnt have used the continuing VIN numbers of 100000+1
they would have started at number one then two and so on
so wouldnt it be the same as these six missing numbers aside
they could build any number of (new) E types and just
number them from 100001 to 2 and so on
as to how many they could sell
they would still have an official VIN number but just be 2015 models
so what do you call them
whats your thoughts
thanks John

[jaydee]

Originally Posted by last fairlane

When Jaguar made the E type I dont know how many
just say 100000 then they went to the XJS and built so many
they wouldnt have used the continuing VIN numbers of 100000+1
they would have started at number one then two and so on
so wouldnt it be the same as these six missing numbers aside
they could build any number of (new) E types and just
number them from 100001 to 2 and so on
as to how many they could sell
they would still have an official VIN number but just be 2015 models
so what do you call them
whats your thoughts
thanks John

Not quite, in this case they had the original old ledger where everything was written down in columns and they had 16 specific numbers only for these race cars but only actually built 12. So there were 4 numbers only left over still recorded but not completed. So in effect there could not be ever any more than 16 built with the correct chassis number. It had been ruled off after 16, hope that makes sense, hard to express.

[katefactor]

Wouldn't actually call them a replica just a 2015 model of the earlier car, can understand why they aren't eligible to race in the same class as the original 1964 versions as they are not old.
Not really a level playing field as if you bent the new one, no big deal, off to Jag for a quick rebuild lol

[jaydee]

So what about this guy in 2008 who built a whole brand new E Type from NOS parts,

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/08/m...d-factory-par/

Is that a replica? Would it have had a build/compliance plate?

[Jacko*]

Originally Posted by jaydee

Watching a show on SBS about rebuilding the E type jag lightweight race car called "The car money cant buy" (ironic, because they sold them for a million pounds and the originals are worth 5 million pounds).

So back in the day, 1960's, they were going to build 16 lightweight aluminium bodied E types for racing. They set aside 16 chassis numbers, but only ended up building 12, so now they're building 4 brand new ones. They're being hand built to spec as they were way back when, even found the original press to press out the bonnets.

So now we have 4 brand new E types built in 2015 but to exacting standards of the day with period correct chassis numbers.
The organisers of the Goodwood say they wont permit them to race because they're replicas.

Another automotive guru says "Unquestionably they are NOT a replica".
So if a guy does up an XY Fairmont as a GT, that's a replica or tribute car, but apart from year of manufacture, are these E types a replica?

Me, I don't think so, they're just built a bit later, if they'd been built a year after the originals, would that make them a replica instead of 50 years later?

Thanks for sharing this one jaydee, I enjoyed watching the video. The guys building these cars are craftsmen & are so passionate about what they do.
As for (is it a replica or not) I don't think the guy paying 5 million pounds believes it's a replica. He probably couldn't give a rats about what the snobs at Goodwood think either lol.