Positive Displacement VS Centrifugal Results

[XH5LWEPN]

First of all I thought I would post this in the AU section as both kits are based around an AU 5.0L engine dress setup (in an XG Ute)

Tony has been a customer of our for many years now. He first came to us with his XG ute running a std 185kw AU 5.0L engine/BTR auto/Engine-Trans Harness and a Kenne Bell 2.1L Flowzilla setup on 8psi making a dismal 288rwhp.
After an engine failure due to a corroded timing cover filling the sump with coolant he decided to get us to improve on his combo starting with a built motor.

We used a Fordstrokers Dart 8.2" short motor with Scat 4340 3.400" crank, Scat H-Beam 5.400" rods and Wiseco dished and forged pistons giving 9.4:1 comp with a 61cc chamber. From.there we assembled the top end with a set of Trickflow 170cc heads, Crane HR228 Hyd roller cam, Comp Shaft mount rockers, a Shuggski ported Explorer lower and the old KB setup on 9psi.
We fitted a full fuel system to support the change to E85 fuel and the BTR auto was ditched in favour of a C4 auto and convertor to suit.
Headers are Hurricane 1-3/4" Longtube 4-1's with 100cpi cats and twin 3" exhaust with 2.5" tailpipes.

First tune un-intercooled on 9psi saw 408rwhp and 11.19@116mph.

From there we looked at trying to control the high intake air temps being produced from the KB. After having great success in Dales KB blown 347ci EL XR8 with an Air to Air front mount cooler we decided to give a Frozen boost Water to Air a go on Tonys ute. With that all setup and running we added some boost with a smaller blower pulley and saw 10.5psi and 430rwhp. ET and MPH improved to 11.06@120mph.

Still chasing more boost Tony had a custom crank pulley mafe 1.5"s larger than the current pulley. Stepping up the crank pulley size was the best option due to the blower pulley already being so small and belt slip would soon become and issue. With 1.5"s added to the crank pulley we expected to see a substantial increase in boost. However 12psi is all that the KB delivered. At 12psi power ended up at 454rwhp and ET dropped to 10.97 and MPH increased to 126mph.

From here we began to suspect we were nearing the limits of the KB setup for the 5.0L based windsor. Whether it was the Flowzilla inlet (with 90mm T/B and 4" intake), the small discharge from the 2.1L head unit or the GT-40/Explorer lower manifold. Something was stopping this KB moving air.

After Tony saw my XC at the track, with such a basic std 351w bottom end, Vortech V1 S-Trim on 12psi with a Blo-Thru Carb on E85 running 10.39@131mph. Tony realised it was time to step it up and was all ears.

So just recently we have ditched the KB and Explorer Lower manifold and installed a Paxton Novi-1500 with a Super Victor Manifold with Wilson Elbow and 75mm T/B.
Personally I am not a fan of any of CAPA's kits for either E-series or AU 5.0L's with the little 8-rib belt setup. So we ditched that bracketry and ran an old school style windsor bracket (same bracketry as fitted to my XC) and Tony had custom 10-rib crank pulley machined up at 8" diameter.
We then designed and had laser cut out, a custom bracket to mount the AU power steering pump with resevoir below the blower.
We decided against the frozen boost W2A cooler that was used on the KB and went back to a 500x450x100 front mount air to air cooler and fabricated 3" aluminium pipework with a blo-thru MAF and a Tial Bypass valve to unload that blower at idle and cruise.
As said a Super Victor single plane manifold was used with a Wilson Elbow and a Trickflow 75mm T/B. The previous 1000cc injectors were reused but mounted with Edelbrock fuel rails to suit the manifold.
Other than that everything else in the combo is as it was, same headers, same exhaust, same long motor combo, same trans and convertor and same diff gears.

Just today we finished the first tune and using a 3.12" blower pulley with the 8" crank pulley we saw 16psi by 6600rpm.

Power is at 544rwhp@6600rpm with 16psi boost. So far that is a 90rwhp gain over the KB at 4psi more boost.

Below you will see the comparison graph of the two combos. The KB setup being the red line and the new Paxton combo being the blue line. You can see the KB is just infront up until 4900rpm and then the Paxton really takes over and shows that KB how you really move air!
The KB was a flat boost line @12psi all the way from coming off the 4600rpm convertor untill 6600rpm. The Paxton is at 10psi coming off the convertor so even though its 2psi of boost down it does a good job of holding its own untill it makes about 11.5psi which is the point it overtakes the KB.

Hopefully in about 4 weeks we will be at the track testing this new combo running the exact same 28x9" full slicks that the previous PB was ran with.

So for those interested, stay tuned and I shall update as we progress.

[347 mont]

Nice work Jeff. As you know I'm a fan of the centrifugal supercharger and from what I've read

they'll always make more top end power and should win in a drag race. I have no doubt the screw

type blower would be a ton of fun on the street with instant boost and huge low down torque but

for top end speed and power centrifugal all the way. Plus those air temps get hot with those PD's S/C's correct?

You know I'm lovin my Paxton Novi 2000, and running consistant 10.7's with a best of 10.59 how

could I not, and I always refer to the disadvantage I have of weight, I'd be at 1900kg(4150lbs) with driver,

I always wonder if it was the weight of those Fox Mustangs at approximately 3300lbs what would she run.

Just to add I find it remarkable how close those two power curve are, how do the torque of the 2 compare.

I think my next mod will be a Super Vic manifold Jeff, whats you reckon.

Great work as always coming out the Streetbuilt garage, I'm lovin it.

[BOTTLEDUP]

Originally Posted by 347 mont

...I think my next mod will be a Super Vic manifold Jeff, whats you reckon.

That's not even a question Wayne!

[347 mont]

Originally Posted by BOTTLEDUP

That's not even a question Wayne!

Lmao I'll need a good port job too

[XH5LWEPN]

You definitely need that Super Victor Wayne!
Kick that long runner RPM-II to the curb ;)

As for intake temps, comparing Tonys intercooled KB at 6500rpm vs the Intercooled Paxton at 6500rpm, the KB's IAT's were at 160*f and the Paxton's IAT's are at 100*f. Dont forget thats at 4 pounds of boost higher aswell.

Wayne your car was the first car we done that really changed my feelings towards Centrifugal blowers. Its the first one we had done that was pullied properly to bring the blower intonits efficiency range.

[XH5LWEPN]

UPDATE!!

Spent abit more time on the ute last night.
Run after run after run saw power figures consistently making 544, 546, 547, 542 rwhp.
This was on his Achilles 265/30/18 Semi-Slicks and by the end of the night I noticed they had started to ball up and get slippery.



So this morning I came in and changed tyres to some old 205/70/14's, the same tyres I dyno'd my XC with. The old hard compound works a lot better with the steel rollers.

A couple of runs this morning and this was the result!



Now with the tyres hooking up you can see we are above the KB from the get go now with both power and rear wheel torque!

[347 mont]

That torque gragh is surprising...a pleasant one

[LyleXR8]

Would the results be different with a manual trans having no stall to get the blower working up in the range a bit earlier than direct driven from a clutch?

[XH5LWEPN]

Originally Posted by LyleXR8

Would the results be different with a manual trans having no stall to get the blower working up in the range a bit earlier than direct driven from a clutch?

Correct. The KB would have it over the Paxton right down low from basically idle. The torque would be up having 12psi down its throat from the get go but I dont think it would be enough to hold its own once that Paxton starts to move air come 4000rpm.

[AGRO]

Good results fella's.
The 2.1 is way too small for what you are doing, hence the lack of power you made from it. They only rate them in base kit form to 300-350hp.
As you said, a larger 2.8 or there about would net a lot better gains, more so with a good intercooler installed. If only there was such a kit, as the market never really demanded it in the past.

How far you going to push this thing Jeff?
If the IAT's are only 100*f, it looks promising providing all stays together!

AGRO.

[Mainlube]

My 2 bob

I did the TT thing, hated the lag after a twin screw, understood twin screws running out of huff on the 1/4 mile . . so . .

I went a 4L twin screw (on the 454) so there is no way to run out of huff and I have 15 psi any time anywhere.

Cheers

Steve

[BOTTLEDUP]

Originally Posted by AGRO

How far you going to push this thing Jeff?
If the IAT's are only 100*f, it looks promising providing all stays together!

AGRO.

With the Dart block & forged internals I'd say it will reach the limits of the blower before the bottom end becomes an issue. The next step might be to look at a larger cylinder head, the baby 170cc Trickflows are doing well to reach these numbers as it is.

[brad24]

I saw this thing run last night on a terrible track,
It looked like a ****en hairy ride to say the least, with the track the way it was.
Even the bikes were turning the tyres out of the hole

[XH5LWEPN]

Not wrong Brad it was a very hairy pair of passes. The first one taking out the 1000' marker as I crossed the centre line yet still managed a 10.84@100mph (already faster than the KB combo).

The second pass was still very messy but managed an on and off throttle PB of 10.52@125mph!

Looking promising on a good track.

[XH5LWEPN]

For those interested we recently upgraded the fuel system on Tony's ute.
We swapped out the A-1000 for the Holley 12-1800-2 pump and added a -10 supply line, used the old -8 supply line as the new return and the old -6 return line was removed. We also swapped out the reg for one with -10 ports.

Clean up tune netted great results. 620rwhp on 17.5 pounds of boost.




We got it to the track last week and to say we are happy with the results is an understatement!!!