It apears that VE will be significantly heavier than VZ

[Falcon Freak]

Link to article

For those of us who have seen the prototypes the weight gain sounds correct as the VE is a larger car. Add to that all the extra equipment and new crash requirements and it makes for one heavy vehicle.

FF

[Redrum]

Will be interesting to see the outcome. I have heard many good things about Orion!!!

[Lukeyson]

the v6 is a dog with the current weight, slap another 150kg+ on it, will feel like it has less torque than it does now.

but i am looking forward to the VE, healthy competition is always a good thing !

[Dave_au]

Sounds like its going to be about the weight of the BA/BF falcon.

[MrSparkle]

Good lord! There's a news flash! Geez, I think I predicted this back on the old forums, when BA details were first leaked. My prediction was confirmed by a contact a month or two after that, but it's a little late now for me to tell all who doubted me, "I told you so!".

Nah screw it ... I TOLD YOU SO!

[gtfpv]

well it will be good weight is good if it is benificial .great to see holden chasing ford in some way .

[Kenster]

im sure Ford got something in mind to completit with the new commodore

[Bossxr8]

If Ford can make the Orion lighter than the BF then it will Holden a good kick in the nuts. The weight and fuel economy benefits would move Fords way.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If Ford can make the Orion lighter than the BF then it will Holden a good kick in the nuts. The weight and fuel economy benefits would move Fords way.

Not looking good unfortunately.

[EFFalcon]

who cares, BA weigh a tonne (or 1.8 to be exact :P) and in stock form they still kill the older lighter cars.

[Steffo]

Hmm. This is interesting.

BF FPV F6 Typhoon...

270kW 550Nm, 1775kg manual, 1805kg automatic

152.11kW/tonne and 309.85Nm/tonne manual
149.58kW/tonne and 304.70Nm/tonne automatic

VZ HSV Clubsport...

297kW 530Nm, 1696kg manual, 1702kg automatic

175.11kW/tonne and 312.5Nm/tonne manual
174.5kW/tonne and 311.39Nm/tonne automatic

Now the Typhoon's already proven to be as fast as, if not faster then the Clubsport.

Add 150kg to the HSV and...

1846kg manual, 1852kg automatic

With 297kW and 530Nm as per VZ...

160.88kW/tonne and 287.10Nm/tonne manual
160.36kW/tonne and 286.17Nm/tonne automatic

It's already around equal to the Typhoon (if not a tad slower). 150kg would give it a massive performance hit. Look at the decrease in torque to weight! And it doesn't have the flat curve of the F6 either. Looks like HSV/Holden have seen the last of their dominance for what looks like it will be a long while.

Even the GT will have a chance to match them now. It'll be LIGHTER, with similar power and torque. How about that.

[GTS_300_Coupe]

It would've been good if aluminium had become easily accessible by now.
Weight is a car's worst enemy as we all know.
The more weight, the less acceleration, the harder cornering, the more fuel consumption, the greater wear and tear in general. (tyres, transmission, engine)

BMW have been using aluminium shells in their cars for quite some time now and they can easily save 200kgs on weight.
Too bad about the nasty price tags though.

[danv8]

Originally Posted by XR8fella

the v6 is a dog with the current weight, slap another 150kg+ on it, will feel like it has less torque than it does now.

but i am looking forward to the VE, healthy competition is always a good thing !

I blame the gearing for the lack luster performance of the V6 the diff ratio really needs to be 3.46 or similar.

The 3.6L V6 in my Rodeo is pretty ballsy thanks to its being a manual and has good gearing. Certainly feels quicker than the Commodore despite having 157kw instead of 170ish and 190 kw.

[Homer1]

Originally Posted by GTS_300_Coupe

It would've been good if aluminium had become easily accessible by now.
Weight is a car's worst enemy as we all know.
The more weight, the less acceleration, the harder cornering, the more fuel consumption, the greater wear and tear in general. (tyres, transmission, engine)

BMW have been using aluminium shells in their cars for quite some time now and they can easily save 200kgs on weight.
Too bad about the nasty price tags though.

Well its not about accessibility but rather cost. Ford and Holden can easily deign cars incorporating aluminium body panels but the cost will skyrocket. BMW can afford to do that because they charge more.

[MITCHAY]

You get what you pay for. Guys really a Commodore and a Falcon is designed primarily as a family sedan. When you talk about HSV/FPV that's when you should start to worry about weight.

I do realise that they are based on the same platform, but I bet there is a way to make it lighter although the cost would be insane. It depends on how much you're willing to pay for saving weight.

The cost would be (as mentioned previously) INSANE! to make the car lighter, so why would they bother when people are still going to buy them even when they're this heavy.

By the time Ford and Holden catch up to lightweight materials BMW,Porsche and the like would already be using something else. And that's what you would expect as you pay for the privilege.

[McobraR]

You guys gotta remember that this is what happened from the change to VS to VT. same engine, with an extra 180kg or so. I think performance was only cut by like less than a second so i dont think it'l be any different in this case. Actually, just thinking about it, it probably wont lose much performance since a 5/6speed auto might be standard and maybe a new diff ratio?
As to what Steffo said about power to weight ratio of a 150kg increase in an HSV, you have to remember that once the VE line of HSVs hits the road, theres gonna be a power increase, so to put it simple, even tho i dont wanna admit it, its probably going to get a little faster, overshadowing the GT and F6.
I reckon in the times ahead, the VE will totally outsell the falcon until the Orion arrives. The current VZ is still outselling the BF, so the VE is just gonna add more salt to the wound

[Ringo]

The 6 speed auto will probably become standard across the range just prior to the VE & Aurion launch. Fuel ecomomy across a fleet is within about 5% in favour of the C'dore but that going to change with the extra weight.

Ford will expand the E-Gas in April 2006 to include Fairmont, XR6 Ute (Auto only) which is a good thing - E-Gas is a real commercial edge for Ford at present as Holden and LPG are so far behind its not funny. E-Gas models are getting better used car prices and have bucked the trend of 6 cyl cars dropping in value.

LPG is all about costs and E-Gas makes a Falcon $100 less per month to lease than ULP versions (roughly) which really gets the attention of big fleet operators and Company Financial Controllers. Holden Dual Fuel actually costs more on lease by about $150 per month (roughly) than a ULP C'dore.

Fleet operators have watched values of used BA's drop $3000 and fuel prices rise by 15% which has them all looking around for cheaper options. 4 cylinder cars are good on paper but mass employee backlash is a real risk (Coke discovered this when they went to Camry and then Corolla from Commodres for their reps - Coke's rep tried as hard as they could to destroy those toyota's with some isolated success) What the Solution ? Tell your employees that they can continue to have a 6 cylinder but it has to be LPG.....

Ford E-Gas production has gone from 5% to 10% of production and it will only grow in 2006. When a E-Gas Territory is going to arrive is anyone's guess but I'd have one. Gas isn't just for BBQ's anymore sunshine !!!

Holdens gaining weight is a wonderful thing.......he he he

[Bucket]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Will be interesting to see the outcome. I have heard many good things about Orion!!!

: DETAILS! ....(please)

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

If Ford can make the Orion lighter than the BF then it will Holden a good kick in the nuts. The weight and fuel economy benefits would move Fords way.

Ford US reackons it will use lighter materials by 2010.

Originally Posted by McobraR

I reckon in the times ahead, the VE will totally outsell the falcon until the Orion arrives. The current VZ is still outselling the BF, so the VE is just gonna add more salt to the wound

Technically in OZ the BF outsold the VZ in 2005. They get the extra sales due to exports.

[ClevlndStemer]

it could be the EL vs VT all over again.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by McobraR

As to what Steffo said about power to weight ratio of a 150kg increase in an HSV, you have to remember that once the VE line of HSVs hits the road, theres gonna be a power increase, so to put it simple, even tho i dont wanna admit it, its probably going to get a little faster, overshadowing the GT and F6.
I reckon in the times ahead, the VE will totally outsell the falcon until the Orion arrives. The current VZ is still outselling the BF, so the VE is just gonna add more salt to the wound

Don't be so sure. HSV do not modify their engines in any way shape or form.

They get the LS2 from America making 400hp 400ftlbs (299kW 542Nm). They put it in the Commodore that's gonna become some sort of HSV, and due to the different exhaust setup in the Commodore to Corvette, it goes down to 398hp 391ftlbs (297kW 530Nm). If the LS2 is only at 400hp in the way they get it, who's to say they will get more? HSV just slots engines into cars. They don't actually DO anything to them.

[Big Mike]

And the engines are slotted into the cars at Elizabeth - not in Melbourne. So tell me, what DO they do at HSV?

[Falcon Freak]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Technically in OZ the BF outsold the VZ in 2005. They get the extra sales due to exports.

It is not a technicality - it is a fact that the BAII/BF outsold the VZ in 2005.

FF

[OzJavelin]

VE heavier than VZ .. now that's a surprise ..

The biggest gripe I have with the VE is that anyone who remotely likes Holdens seems to think that it will be the be-all and end-all of cars .. the greatest thing since sliced bread. I think there will be a LOT of dsappointed people who have been holding off buying a car waiting for this "automotive mesiah" ..

Personally I'd wait until the VE comes out then buy a bargain-basement VZ .. if I was that excited about buying a new Holden.

[MeestaNob!]

Guys, anyone who thinks Orion or any future Falcon will EVER outsell a Commodore is dreaming. Fact is, Ford dont make as many Falcons as Holden do Commodores meaning supply issues. Secondly, the majority of the car buying public judge a vehicles merits by the badge resting in front of the vehicles grill. Everything else (speed, chasis agility, looks, etc) is subjective (ie about as scientific as 'whats your favourite colour').

If the AU had a lion on the front it would have outsold the Ford Commodore 3:1. Its just the way it is.

All we can do as Ford people is enjoy the cars we have, let the Holden guys enjoy the cars they have, and hope Ford stays profitable whilst the rest drive Toyotas.

Holden means a great deal to Australia, buggered if I know why though.

[JPFS1]

Interesting thread....

All i can say is wait for Orion... ;)

VE is so last year already!

[BENT_8]

I just came back from a holiday on the gold coast where i had a VZ as a hire car. with the missus and three kids in it i found it to be gutless. Infact to get any performance at all i had to wring its neck(sorry avis).
I guess these things must have adaptive autos coz when i cruised slowly around suburbia it wanted to behave as though i was still on the throttle and made harsh changes
I drove my BA to wagga and back and had no trouble passin anything in my way and still got good milage with a cumfy ride too.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Ford US reackons it will use lighter materials by 2010.

I'm not talking about using lightweight alloys, I mean by designing weight out of them and by using tailored blanks that put more metal where its needed and less where it isn't. I believe the Territory was the first Australian car to use tailored blanks. I think they were used in the pillars. Smart designing can reduce the overall weight by removing weight from where it isn't needed and by removing items that aren't necessary.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by MeestaNob!

Guys, anyone who thinks Orion or any future Falcon will EVER outsell a Commodore is dreaming. Fact is, Ford dont make as many Falcons as Holden do Commodores meaning supply issues. Secondly, the majority of the car buying public judge a vehicles merits by the badge resting in front of the vehicles grill. Everything else (speed, chasis agility, looks, etc) is subjective (ie about as scientific as 'whats your favourite colour').

If the AU had a lion on the front it would have outsold the Ford Commodore 3:1. Its just the way it is.

All we can do as Ford people is enjoy the cars we have, let the Holden guys enjoy the cars they have, and hope Ford stays profitable whilst the rest drive Toyotas.

Holden means a great deal to Australia, buggered if I know why though.

That may have been the case but Ford have been cutting production numbers due to lower demand. Supply caught up with demand more than a year ago. You are correct about the one eyed Holden buyers though, most of the sheep would buy a Commodore no matter how bad it was.

[Brute6]

I guess Holden are just realising what it takes to build a decent car...... :