Rear-Wheel Drive More Fun Than Front-Wheel Drive?

[OzJavelin]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

I always wondered how it didn't rip the drivers arms off with torque steer with the big block torque off the line. How did they prevent this?

As far as I understand it, it was because the driveshafts were even length. The engine being N/S rather than E/W, with the auto tucked up under one bank with the diff allowed this.

Despite what people like to think, American's aren't / weren't stupid and Oldsmobile put a lot of thought into the Toronado. Until then, most people thought anything over 2-litres as FWD was impossible; a number of Toronados were apparently bought by other (European) manufacturers to reverse engineer what GM had done. Despite it's weight, size a torque apparently it was a good handling car .. only let down my the usual American drum brakes (front discs optional in 1967)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by XB GS 351 Coupe

Personal opinion and preference which one is more fun, which one is faster around the twists, no question the FWD.

We have 10km of twisty country road to get to the motorway on my drive to work, and I can guarantee that our $900 stock standard Toyota Starlet 1.3 litre manual FWD will pretty much eat any Falcon/Commodore even with modded suspension along that stretch of road.

That particular stretch does not really allow you to take advantage of the power, so 6 or V8 won't matter.

And that's coming from a person that has driver RWD V8's since the 80's, including XR8's and FPV's/GT's.

Funny you mention the 1.3 Starlet, we had a 1.3 5sp Echo and it was a hoot to punt around town. If I do like my fwd, it's in a very compact little manual car.

There must be an undercurrent of us around, cos Toyota still sell the setup in the 1.3 Manual Yaris over 20 years later. Get one while you still can!

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

This is the crux of it - weight distribution. People tend to focus on which wheels are doing the driving and how the car will behave when traction is lost, but that's only part of it. Weight distribution is a big factor when describing how a car will handle.

Then if you want to add AWD into the mix you have to consider that the majority of AWD cars start as FWD and have the AWD system "added on". But there are also cars, most of which we don't get in Australia, that start as RWD with the AWD system "added on" - Ford Territory was one example.

So forget about RWD v AWD v FWD for a second, and look at the chassis/drive train configuration - longitudinal vs transverse. All FWD and most AWD cars are transverse. Speaking from an enthusiast point of view, it's horrible. The engine and transmission are slung out over the top of the front axle line. Weight distribution is horrendous. That there are some seriously fun cars around like the Focus ST that have this layout is testament to the talented engineers who've refined what is undoubtedly a compromised architecture, from an enthusiast/performance point of view.

If that's not bad enough think about how many people bought diesel hatches. Heavy cast iron engine on top of the front wheels? No thanks.

RWD and longitudinal layouts allow the engine to be placed behind and below the front axle line, resulting in a long bonnet and usually less interior space, but it won't be any where near as prone to understeer. 50/50 weight distribution is far easier to achieve, but not the case in every RWD car.

Another thing complicating the argument is that there are some super-fun FWD cars around and some terrible RWD cars. (though not so many these days) It's pretty much impossible to compare apples with apples. Small hot hatches work well as FWD - adjust your driving style to suit and have a blast. But then again you can still buy a BMW M140i...

And then there's my pet topic - aesthetic proportions. Small cars and supercars aside, the car with a longitudinal chassis will always look better.

Great post, longitudinal drivetrain was one of the reasons the AWD Terry is such a good vehicle. These days you have to pay £££ €€€ for the same in a F-Pace, X5 or Porsche.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

Always had RWD stuff .. but a first gen Oldsmobile Toronado - FWD and 425V8 - is on my bucket list:

image

Look at the date of it, that marks the peak of the American superpower, when they made their large cars FWD. Thus began the decline...

[Sprintey]

Going back to the longitudinal drivetrain theme, maybe the Americans were onto something - longitudinal FWD does not have all of the compromises of transverse mounting.

This article was fascinating: meet the rare 'Fouranado':

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/1...mobile-a-body/

If you look at cars like the French Renault 12, it was exactly the same, fwd, north south motor and a great reputation for handling, chassis tune and comfort. I should know, as it was my parents car that got the surf track punishment as soon as I had my Ps. Great car.

[Maka]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Going back to the longitudinal drivetrain theme, maybe the Americans were onto something - longitudinal FWD does not have all of the compromises of transverse mounting.

This article was fascinating: meet the rare 'Fouranado':

https://www.hemmings.com/blog/2014/1...mobile-a-body/

If you look at cars like the French Renault 12, it was exactly the same, fwd, north south motor and a great reputation for handling, chassis tune and comfort. I should know, as it was my parents car that got the surf track punishment as soon as I had my Ps. Great car.

Nice link Sprintey, great read mate!!

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

A nice read imo (with thanks to Jack Pyefinch & carsguide.com.au) -

https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-adv...more-fun-36990

"Rear-wheel drive is pure and unadulterated, it is the balance that God Himself would have given cars"

"This ancient and revered set up allows you to get power down out of bends in a far superior manner, and provides better feel and feedback."

"Partly, it is oversteer that makes rear-wheel driven cars more fun, because there are few things as satisfying, and heart fibrillating, as catching and correcting an oversteer moment, or, if you're on a track and in possession of the necessary skills holding a rear-wheel slide."

A couple of nice reasons why Rwd is more fun than Fwd above, lets see if i can find some glowing Fwd stories to share lol!!

cheers, Maka

[Maka]

Well, in the name of balance & fairness, here's two interesting links giving Fwd the thumbs up lol -

https://www.carthrottle.com/post/why...than-a-rwd-v8/

https://carbuzz.com/news/fwd-cars-ar...-ever-beat-rwd

cheers, Maka

[tranquilized]

That Oldsmobile is crazy! Longitudinal AND FWD! How many of those old V8 FWD American tanks were longitudinal?

It's interesting how GM embraced FWD during that era. I remember reading it was in response to the oil crisis and the introduction of CAFE. At the time GM were loaded and pretty much re-engineered their entire range, big block tanks and all, to be FWD, just to gain a bit extra MPG. Ford didn't have the resources to do that though. Once the fuel crisis was over GM were left without any RWD platforms. There was even a Cadillac badged J car. (Holden Camira)
More recently though GM learnt the value of RWD with most Cadillac's now based on the RWD Alpha platform. Lincoln are only just getting their RWD act together now.

[solarite_guy]

Originally Posted by tranquilized

That Oldsmobile is crazy! Longitudinal AND FWD! How many of those old V8 FWD American tanks were longitudinal?

In the 69s and 70s there was the Toronado and Eldorado.

The Eldorado came with a 472 cid V8 then a 500.

Then things started downsizing.

[Sprintey]

Glad you appreciated the link guys, I learned a lot yesterday afternoon.

One point i kept coming across was how well engineered the GM FWD longitudinal setup of the 1960s was. They were very good engineers at their company's peak. So it was done well.

Second was the driving experience - smooth and powerful, and handling safer for the average motorist. Plus, a lot of the northern US gets snowy conditions and the setup is better for low traction ice and snow. Remember this is before widespread AWD and the 1970 Range Rover.

Thirdly, the history - racers in the states in the 1920s pioneered the FWD as one top driver believed being pulled through a corner was better than pushed and the concept was raced successfully. This setup saw commercial light of day as the 1937 Cord.

Minus points in owning these longitudinal FWD cars come in front tyre wear and any maintenance on the drivetrain.

Cheers