Falcons towing Falcons - Legalities

[xeeclipse]

Originally Posted by FPV414

I towed a BA F6 on a trailer designed for plant equipment behind a 5 speed auto FG with no trans cooler from Mossvale NSW to Lilydale VIC. 690KM. Car was loaded backwards as it was smashed and couldn't be moved.

Almost cooked the gearbox and shat me dacks a few times. Was passed and seen by many a Highway Patrol but no one stopped me. So I guess that means it was legal?

I'll never do it again though. Just a good story to tell (y)

The most unsettling scenario is when the trailers leaves start to oscillate at opposing frequencies to that of your vehicles suspension. I've never been on a rodeo bull or brumby but the sensation would have to be pretty darn close!!!

At least you lived to tell the tale and are wiser for it!! We should have a thread dedicated to Tandem Bloopers. Life is so much richer and full of possibilities when behind a FALCON.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Sox

You shouldn't post if you don't know what you're talking about, you'll encourage dangerous tow rigs.

You're right, YOU shouldn't, since I can state, for a FACT, that you are wrong.

Who give's rats about Euros? WTF does that even mean? This thread is about towing a Falcon with a Falcon. Have you ever done that? Cos I have, numerous times.

By definition it's towing more than 100% of the weight of the tow-car, and that's iffy territory to begin with. Especially considering the dubious brakes on most hire trailers. As we have examined, with 1,600 kg car, and saya 700kg trailer, that's literally right on the max limit, and is also approaching 150%.

A car on a trailer isn't a flexible load, or even a caravan. There aren't may options. You can put it on forwards or backwards, with maybe a little wiggle-room fore and aft, that's it.

Originally Posted by Sox

It's equally unsafe to have too much ballweight as it is to have not enough

No, no it is not. That's a pig-ignorant pluralism from somebody without a clue.

As I have said from the start, technical legalities aside, this is something to be attempted only under the best circumstances and with extreme caution. That's a lot of mass behind you, and if you lose control the tail will most definitely wag the dog.

The first time I tried this, I loaded the Falcon frontways, didn't like the balance, so put in on backwards, thought that looked better.
Got up to around 60, carefully stopped, rolled it off again, and put it back on frontways.

It is absolutely imperative that you have the bulk of the weight forward of centre. If you have the room to play with, you might be able to finesse the balance a little, but yes I have always found it best with the car as far forward as possible. Ultimately the rear of a Falcon tow-car is rated for a decent load itself, and can usually handle the extra pressure.
Does that exceed the statutory ball-weight of 10%? I honestly don't know, I just know that it works. They're tandem trailers so most of the load is on the axles, and 10% would be a 230kg load, so I doubt it would be exceeding it by much.

The issue is partially that most trailers use over-rider brakes. If you had your own trailer, equipt with remote braking, it would certainly change things. As it is, the big danger is that, in some circumstance, the mass of the trailer will move the rear of your car sideways, potentially jack-knifing. This can happen due to speed wobbles, trying to brake hard in a corner, or simply losing traction on a bad surface. Put simply, the more weight holding your rear-end in place the better. I stress that this is not supposition, this is experience.

I suppose an alternative might be to have a better balanced trailer, but load your boot with cement slabs? Don't know, and I don't recommend it.

[73 4V XB]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

It is absolutely imperative that you have the bulk of the weight forward of centre. If you have the room to play with, you might be able to finesse the balance a little, but yes I have always found it best with the car as far forward as possible. Ultimately the rear of a Falcon tow-car is rated for a decent load itself, and can usually handle the extra pressure.
Does that exceed the statutory ball-weight of 10%? I honestly don't know, I just know that it works. They're tandem trailers so most of the load is on the axles, and 10% would be a 230kg load, so I doubt it would be exceeding it by much.

As far forward as possible...
That’s a pretty broad statement. This might work on your trailer but doubt it would suit most.
What would happen if your load was as far forward as possible, despite the fact you’ve overloaded your ball weight, what happens when you have to stop suddenly. Your load pushes down on your overloaded ball lifting the front of the tow car reducing your braking capacity and steering.
I’ve recently towed a tandem with a 8% ball weight on a round trip off 3700 K’s, this included the Putty Rd. If my load was as far forward as possible I wouldn’t be here today.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 73 4V XB

As far forward as possible...
That’s a pretty broad statement. This might work on your trailer but doubt it would suit most.
What would happen if your load was as far forward as possible, despite the fact you’ve overloaded your ball weight, what happens when you have to stop suddenly. Your load pushes down on your overloaded ball lifting the front of the tow car reducing your braking capacity and steering.

If you take the comments in context, what Crazy Dazz is saying is, on a traditional car trailer, there is very little room to move the car around. you may be able to move it a small amount forward or back. If you look at some of the photos on the first page you will see. This is in relation to having a falcon on a car trailer.

having it err on the side of 'forward' is better than 'rearward'. a falcon on a car trailer, as far forward as it can go, isn't going to raise the ball weight a substantial amount, given there is only about 1metre of spare room to play with (about half a metre each end).

the reason a car jack knifes or comes to grief while towing is largely caused by the rear grip of the tow car. straight line grip performance is irrelevant as weight transfer naturally goes that way. its lateral grip that is critical. if there isn't enough weight on the rear axle of the tow vehicle, and a lateral force is applied, things can get rather sketchy when towing something that weighs more than the tow vehicle. a tail wagging the dog scenario.

[Sox]

Originally Posted by prydey

If you take the comments in context, what Crazy Dazz is saying is, on a traditional car trailer, there is very little room to move the car around. you may be able to move it a small amount forward or back. If you look at some of the photos on the first page you will see. This is in relation to having a falcon on a car trailer.

I doubt Crazy Dazz even knows what he's saying in his last post...

The trailer I posted on the first page with the Sportsman on it was made by myself.
It has a comparably short bed at only 4m, and in that photo it has a long wheelbase Fairlane Sportsman sitting on it, so you could say it's an extreme example of having very little room to move, as you say.
Yet I have enough room there to provide less than neutral balance or as much as 12%.

In a nutshell, you're way off the mark.

FWIW I have it setup with around 5-6% when it's behind the wagon and about 7-8% behind the ute, with a Falcon sitting on it.
It's probably the most stable rig I've used with exceptional cornering and braking stability at all speeds and terrains.

the reason a car jack knifes or comes to grief while towing is largely caused by the rear grip of the tow car. straight line grip performance is irrelevant as weight transfer naturally goes that way. its lateral grip that is critical. if there isn't enough weight on the rear axle of the tow vehicle, and a lateral force is applied, things can get rather sketchy when towing something that weighs more than the tow vehicle. a tail wagging the dog scenario.

You do realise that cars jackknife just as easy with too much ballweight...

Originally Posted by 73 4V XB

As far forward as possible...
That’s a pretty broad statement. This might work on your trailer but doubt it would suit most.

Correct. The same rules can not apply in all cases, something which I've been saying all along in this thread.
Every case is different.

What would happen if your load was as far forward as possible, despite the fact you’ve overloaded your ball weight, what happens when you have to stop suddenly. Your load pushes down on your overloaded ball lifting the front of the tow car reducing your braking capacity and steering.

Yep, I'm tired of saying it in this thread, but an overloaded towball is equally as unstable and unsafe as one which is underweight.

I’ve recently towed a tandem with a 8% ball weight on a round trip off 3700 K’s, this included the Putty Rd. If my load was as far forward as possible I wouldn’t be here today.

Sounds pretty spot on to me.

[kypez]

I used to tow my race car with a G6E with a HR tow bar rated to 2300 kgs. I did run air bags and didn't have any issues towing. Towed it for years till I traded it on an Everest so I could carry more spares. This is a custom made trailer with electric brakes and Breakaway system as required when towing over 2000 kg.

2280kg with a 225 kg ball weight. The EcoLpi towed a dream with the extra torque and was cheap as chips to fuel. Taken it to PI from Sydney as well without issues towing.

Car is 1684 kg
Trailer is 535 kg
Fuel and a couple of spares

Total 2280 kg.



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