4WD Falcon?

[seXCmont]

hey guys i was wondering how many others out there have been dreamin about a Faclon (not terrirtory) with constant 4WD? i been in my mate suby and that goes and just corners and everything so well from the AWD that i was thinkin how cool it would b to see the likes of an F6 with AWD cainin on the track and alot easier in the wet.

[Ultimate]

I already have that project thought out mate. If i can raise the cash in the future i would try and make a awd typhoon. People rave about skylines and there awd so i thought yes f6 would be good. Oh yer skyline gtr for awd

[Big Mike]

Yes AWD is superior in every sense of the word; Mitsubishi, Subaru, VW, Porsché, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Toyota, Nissan, shall I go on? Sadly us Aussies are a bit slow on the up-take.

I remember a line from a movie "A person is smart. But people, are dumb". And that rings true I think in our situation in Australia where the cars we idolize (MYSELF INCLUDED) are old fashioned and inferior in one way or another, yet what is undoubtadly a better car in any real-world test - wears a badge like Magna or Camry and doesn't have any appeal in the very market it outshines!

A true constant AWD system, the likes of which Mitsi uses in Evo/Outlander/Old Magna, and Subaru uses accros the range; and can also be found in a humble VW Passat, is a marvellous system (in various forms) and I'm sure in time will ultimately start to appear in Fords and Holdens. Certainly, the claimed performance times of the AWD Turbo Territory are outstanding, and though I hate to mention the dreaded lion - the HSV Coupé 4 thing is now a highly sort-after V8, AWD, 2-door muscle car. (though the Holden/HSV AWD system in the Cross8 and other vehicles is a 30/70 split of sorts, not a true constant or balanced AWD system and is extremely different to drive on the limit)

There was an AWD turbo XF once... I'm sure the components can be manufactured easily enough - though a 6 allows adequate room, a V8 gets very difficult to maintain a good rideheight and accomodate the drive components... (Me thinks of an F-Series truck and whether its guts would fit under my coupe.....)

I haven't seen under an AWD Territory but I'd be keen to hear from people who have, whether they think the drivetrain could be accomodated under a Falcon with Falcon-ish rideheight? I believe the time is coming where Aussie's would buy an AWD Falcon or Commodore - though the bogans and their RWD arguments will always remain, I feel the popularity of existing AWD models in Australia and the number of people becomming aware of their advantages is nearing a point where Ford and Holden could seriously start applying some of this technology accross their products.

Maybe, just maybe, as the likes of Audi and VW have been doing for decades now, the time will come where only an XT, Fairmont and XR6 are 2WD, with Fairmont Ghia, XR6T, and all FPV cars being AWD without qestion or option.

[iTec]

ford did the original testing of the territory running gear in falcons as they both share the same platform, so it is possible to do.

[AU-MUSTD]

I think the weight , fuel consumption and cost to build would far out weigh the extra benefits of driving ability. Can you imagine a family car over 2 tonne that drinks the same as a v8 being a hit with middle class aus??? I dont think so.

[Matty4]

Originally Posted by iTec

ford did the original testing of the territory running gear in falcons as they both share the same platform, so it is possible to do.

Yeah but the mules also ran a much higher ride height to allow for the front drivetrain. An AWD Falcon that retains the same ride height would require a totally different engineering perspective to the current Territory, especially considering that even in the Territory AWD there isn't room for a V8.

Matty

[parawolf]

Problem with AWD in a car the size of a falcon is that unless it is perfectly implimented it can become an understeer pig. All the cars you have mentioned have a shorter wheel base and as such a natively smaller turning circle.

The Falcon is a "BIG CAR". I would want to see something as advanced as the GT-R ATTESSA Pro as found in GT-R VSPEC Nissans, which still gives the ability for throttle on oversteer. Perhaps at the same time they might need to look at four wheel steering also.

About the only other car with the size + performance of the Aussie Falcon that has AWD is the Audi A6/S6/A8/S8. Could you imagine paying that much for a Falcon?

[Twinpiston]

[QUOTE=Big Mike the claimed performance times of the AWD Turbo Territory are outstanding.[/QUOTE]

Where did you hear about this, have you got the times?

Cheers

Corey

[Twinpiston]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

the claimed performance times of the AWD Turbo Territory are outstanding.

Where did you hear about this, have you got the times?

Cheers

Corey

[OldManGhia]

The Holden Adventra AWD (Commodore Wagon) was underpowered in the V6 and a gas guzzler in the V8 version. Read this in a comparison between the Ford Territory, Toyota Kluger, Holden Adventra and another I cant remember. The Kluger won by the way with the Adventra in last place.

[nb_351]

ahhh just dreaming of a gtr beater typhoon 2 door...
imagine it, would be a hot looking car as a 2 door, slung low to the ground...
would need something like attesa as mentioned before, and of course a 6 speed... the gtr boxes are a big mother of a box... they are massive... and imagine the cost of designing/testing a system like that... highly unlikely it will ever pass the dream stage... would be ahit though if it came out though i think , if people bought awd magnas, theyd buy an awd falcon for sure...

[vztrt]

If Ford did release an AWD I6T Falcon I would be saving my money for one.

As for the system Ford could source the AWD system from Jag, I mean the IRS came from there so why couldn't they incorporate Jag's AWD system.

[LethalLeigh]

I'm curious as to how interchangable the Territory components are to the Falcon. I do recall reading clearance issues with the front drive shafts past the steering components which is why the Territory has a unique setup there. It might also mean that a V8, more importantly that gigantic Boss motor, would be ruled out.

Originally Posted by Big Mike

(Me thinks of an F-Series truck and whether its guts would fit under my coupe.....)

There's an XC coupe getting around Adelaide with a 4x4 F series chassis and a 429 with the plates BBWOLFE. He was featured in Street Machine about a year or two ago as well. It worked but god it took some engineering. He apparently cut about 150mm out of the chassis so it'd fit. There's also a Torana hatch that's done a simliar job although I presume it's got HiLux running gear or similar.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by vztrt

If Ford did release an AWD I6T Falcon I would be saving my money for one.

As for the system Ford could source the AWD system from Jag, I mean the IRS came from there so why couldn't they incorporate Jag's AWD system.

You mean the AWD on the X-Series jag which is based on the mondeo chassis? probably wouldn't handle the power output of a performance system or the torque of even the basic falcon.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by parawolf

You mean the AWD on the X-Series jag which is based on the mondeo chassis? probably wouldn't handle the power output of a performance system or the torque of even the basic falcon.

Bugger! I was sure there Jag had a AWD V8. Guess I mixed it up with another company.

[seXCmont]

mmmm hopefully one day in the future they might consider it whole new falcon new model, F6 Typhoon AWD would b sweet as. maybe even a new falcon coupe along the lines of XA-XC style where it is different to the normal 4 door that would be sweet also.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

Yes AWD is superior in every sense of the word; Mitsubishi, Subaru, VW, Porsché, Lamborghini, Bentley, Bugatti, Toyota, Nissan, shall I go on? Sadly us Aussies are a bit slow on the up-take.

I remember a line from a movie "A person is smart. But people, are dumb". And that rings true I think in our situation in Australia where the cars we idolize (MYSELF INCLUDED) are old fashioned and inferior in one way or another, yet what is undoubtadly a better car in any real-world test - wears a badge like Magna or Camry and doesn't have any appeal in the very market it outshines!

A true constant AWD system, the likes of which Mitsi uses in Evo/Outlander/Old Magna, and Subaru uses accros the range; and can also be found in a humble VW Passat, is a marvellous system (in various forms) and I'm sure in time will ultimately start to appear in Fords and Holdens. Certainly, the claimed performance times of the AWD Turbo Territory are outstanding, and though I hate to mention the dreaded lion - the HSV Coupé 4 thing is now a highly sort-after V8, AWD, 2-door muscle car. (though the Holden/HSV AWD system in the Cross8 and other vehicles is a 30/70 split of sorts, not a true constant or balanced AWD system and is extremely different to drive on the limit)

There was an AWD turbo XF once... I'm sure the components can be manufactured easily enough - though a 6 allows adequate room, a V8 gets very difficult to maintain a good rideheight and accomodate the drive components... (Me thinks of an F-Series truck and whether its guts would fit under my coupe.....)

I haven't seen under an AWD Territory but I'd be keen to hear from people who have, whether they think the drivetrain could be accomodated under a Falcon with Falcon-ish rideheight? I believe the time is coming where Aussie's would buy an AWD Falcon or Commodore - though the bogans and their RWD arguments will always remain, I feel the popularity of existing AWD models in Australia and the number of people becomming aware of their advantages is nearing a point where Ford and Holden could seriously start applying some of this technology accross their products.

Maybe, just maybe, as the likes of Audi and VW have been doing for decades now, the time will come where only an XT, Fairmont and XR6 are 2WD, with Fairmont Ghia, XR6T, and all FPV cars being AWD without qestion or option.

AWD on a Falcon would just add weight and do nothing for its performance.

It is not necessarily better, in some scenarios it can be, but for Falcon, RWD is just fine. Coupe4 was extremley heavy and very expensive. Therefore it was slower. It was slower with 270kW/475Nm then a 235kW VY SS. Both on track and in a straight line.

And it has been repeated by other similarly sized/powered cars time and time again. Audi RS6 is heavier then both the more powerful BMW M5 and Mercedes-Benz E55 AMG it competes with and is slower and doesn't corner or stop as well. It's AWD, the other two are RWD.

Even Porsche chooses RWD for its top-range models (911 Turbo is AWD... but the GT2 and GT3 are RWD, the 911 GT1 was RWD, the Carrera GT is RWD, the 962 LeMans road car was RWD etc).

An AWD Falcon would be heavy (like it already isn't), very expensive, and it would be a fruitless 'advance.' There is absolutley no need. Better spend their money in developing more advanced suspension technology then AWD.

[parawolf]

Originally Posted by Steffo

AWD on a Falcon would just add weight and do nothing for its performance.

Disagree. Wet weather performance would be better. 190kW + 383Nm in a base end product is a lot. There is only so much that Traction Control, and other control devices can actually do. There is no argument that AWD would improve wet weather safety in my opinion.

Originally Posted by Steffo

An AWD Falcon would be heavy (like it already isn't), very expensive, and it would be a fruitless 'advance.' There is absolutley no need. Better spend their money in developing more advanced suspension technology then AWD.

Agreed. For the minimal improvement in wet weather performance increase that AWD would give the Falcon it would be a waste of investment dollars. Ford would be far better putting money into NVH improvements (better differentials please) and better levels of interior trim, and better driver ergonomics (sight/sound/etc of the road around them).

[seXCmont]

a lot of good points but i kno if they made a new model and put alot of thought to it and conquered the bad points it would b sweet. anyway i'll keep dreamin

[Big Mike]

"Twinpiston" - No I don't recall the times though I BELIEVE (and I do stress that word) it was quicker than an XR6T - though with simillar outputs, and much more weight, the traction of the AWD enabled a sizeabley quicker quarter-mile sprint.

"AU98C-Wagon" and others - Yes the AWD Holdens are very thirsty and underpowered - a constant AWD (albeit a split-ratio) adds a lot of effort to the drivetrain - much like a regular auto has less rwkw than a manual, the AWD is substantially moreso. I base this on my personal and indepth experience with MMAL and the release of the AWD Magna back in TJ 2002. Despite contrary opinions, the Magna (was) a simillar sized car for chassis length comparisons, and in the heavier TL form did understeer a little much for my liking, though the TJ was tuned for a more snappy turn in. Power was zapped from the engine, though flywheel figures were the same, a quarter-mile in an AWD TJ was several seconds slower than the FWD; however the AWD would snap your neck, and could be floored from standstill - upon BEGINNING a U-turn, rather than completing it as in every FWD and RWD car. A silly thing to do perhaps - but a great way to demonstrate the aditional traction (performance, safety, whatever) should you ever "need" it.

"Steffo" - Ok I'm not up on all the Porsché models and specs, but certainly their supercar of yesteryear - the Porsché 959 was AWD. All present Lamborghinis are AWD, and as for very LARGE cars (I don't recall who made that comment), may I point you towards the likes of Bentley's Continental GT coupé and saloon equivelant? I understand they understeer - and weigh twice that of a Falcon...

Tuned properly (edit - balanced), an AWD car can be designed to turn-in correctly. Merely adding the drive to a RWD car will NOT suffice. As for Nissan's Godzilla system - whereby the vehicle is RWD until slip is detected - this is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS (from personal experience) where a smooth oversteer slide (NOT safe, but fun) can be induced, followed by a sharp snap as the front wheels kick in. One must be VERY aware of when and how the system operates in order to drive those things on the limit. My pilot that day was Jim Richards at the Malalla racetrack, where I managed to give myself a very dangerous fright. However, such a "temporary AWD system" will save on fuel/power, as its not drawing torque away from the engine to drive gears that aren't necessary under normal traction conditions.

An AWD Falcon could never sell at the price of those top-line Audis, however, the Passat with AWD is a similar price to a Fairmont (with a million more goodies inside too - just a little smaller) - and quite frankely the base Magna AWD was priced and marketted within Mitsubishi's range much like Ford's Futura - a few extra specs, a few extra dollars, and AWD. It was NOT a much more expensive vehicle - and I don't believe it would need to be in the Falcon's case. Though as evidenced with the Holden Adventra/Cross 8 etc., a much more efficient and direct series of shafts need to be put in place, to allow suitable ride height and as much fuel efficiency as possible. Perhaps, one might look to the Oldsmobile Toronado and Cadillac Eldorado of some 40 years ago, and see the drive shafts, trans, and sump all appearing to be incorporated together (they were FWD, and ran conventional North-South engines). Something with very little in common with the Holden system of obscure 90-degree universal joints and limited clearance.

Please excuse my long posts guys. Just so many points to mention dammit!!

[ClevlndStemer]

I would love to see an AWD performance Falcon. Something along the lines of the Atessa system, a partime AWD or even like Subaru where the centre diff is adjustable.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Big Mike

Ok I'm not up on all the Porsché models and specs, but certainly their supercar of yesteryear - the Porsché 959 was AWD.

Yes, the 959 was AWD because it was designed from the factory as a rally car. It competed in Group C Rally I believe.

The 1994 962 LeMans, a 404km/h road going LeMans supercar (and LeMans 24 Hours winner) which recieved its momentum from a 545kW 3.0 twin-turbo flat-six and weighed in at 1082kg was RWD. The 1996, 1997 and 1998 911 GT1 Strassenversions (Street versions), all of which were capable of 320-370km/h, out accelerating and out-cornering almost anything etc... also LeMans based cars and LM winners, were RWD. The Carrera GT, their latest supercar, designed as the ultimate road going sports car, receiving momentum from a 450kW V10, hitting a max of 334km/h and holding the record for being the fastest full bodied factory production car around the Nurburgring-Nordschleife, is also RWD.

Originally Posted by Big Mike

As for Nissan's Godzilla system - whereby the vehicle is RWD until slip is detected - this is EXTREMELY DANGEROUS (from personal experience) where a smooth oversteer slide (NOT safe, but fun) can be induced, followed by a sharp snap as the front wheels kick in. One must be VERY aware of when and how the system operates in order to drive those things on the limit. My pilot that day was Jim Richards at the Malalla racetrack, where I managed to give myself a very dangerous fright. However, such a "temporary AWD system" will save on fuel/power, as its not drawing torque away from the engine to drive gears that aren't necessary under normal traction conditions.

Extremley dangerous? Tell that to Porsche. Nissan copied that system from the 1987 Porsche 959. Porsche has sinced used it on 1993's 911 Turbo S (964), 1995's 911 Turbo (993), 1997's 911 Turbo S (997), 2000's 911 Turbo (996), 2004's 911 Turbo S (996), 2006's 911 Turbo (997), and the corresponding Carrera4 and Carrera4S model of each generation. And it is widely praised as being one of the absolute best AWD systems around, and it is claimed to make what can otherwise be a twitchy and dangerous design by nature (rear engine, no weight up front) quite safe and gives most anyone the chance to drive one safely on the limit.

Or Audi. They have been using a similar type of setup on the S3, S4/RS4, S6/RS6, S8, the Quattro A3/A4/A6/A8, the Quattro TT etc.

Or Bugatti. The same type of system is used on the 736kW, 407km/h EB 16/4 Veyron.

Or Lamborghini. The same type of system inhabits the 368kW Gallardo and 426kW Murcielago, and their new facelift models, the 383kW Gallardo SE and 471kW Murcielago LP640.

Then you have the Volkswagen Golf R32, Volkswagen Bora V6 4Motion, Volkswagen Passat V6 4Motion and W8 4Motion, all of which use a similar type of setup. A type of setup that varies drive front to rear, depending on situation etc etc. Can be FWD or RWD biased, doesn't matter, its the same technology and system at the core.

I don't understand how you figure it will save on fuel though. AWD = weight. Weight = fuel use. Not to mention that, the car is never 100% RWD. The AWD does not turn off.

For Falcon, AWD would be an unecessary expense. And as far as things are going, there's close to 100% chance of it not happening anyway.

[Big Mike]

I meant a temporary system will save fuel over a full-time system, though clearly less efficient than a 2wd system. I was under the impression the VW platform was much like the Subaru and Mitsubishi platform where the drive is constant to all four wheels, but can be biased fore or aft as the situation demands via a LSD centre diff, viscous coupling, electronics, or other methods. Certainly in the twitchy rear-engined Porschés the idea of heavy rear drive with on-demand front assistance makes perfect sense. It is perhaps why it was also so famed in Lamborghini's uses, though the more conventionally-weighted front-engined Nissan was NOT a pleasant experience, a harsh "snapping" in of front drive heavily disrupting the instinctive flow of things. However, I understand the Audi Quattro system to be biased fore or aft, but to smoothly alter the split as required - I don't see that being any more effiecient than a regulated 50/50 split, though the smoothness in transition may help to balance the car through turns, setting the car up for a corner and powering through rather than worrying about the positioning of weight and front-end gemoetries in a more 50/50 car?