AFF's second annual brake test day.

EFFalcon · 14-05-2006, 10:14 PM

Copied from Caspers AU post

Well, its on again, the AFF brake test. Last years was very interesting with a number of suprise results. This year the E-Series gets to make an appearance.

The details are:
Date will be mid to late June
Location is Heathcote raceway
All cars will be driven by our nominated driver on the day
4 speeds to test braking from

The cars needed:
We will need a couple of cars for this one and, to keep things relatively even, we would like them to be V8's if possible (to keep similar vehicle masses)
E-Series Stock Brakes
E-Series Upgraded Brakes (DBA/RDA uprated rotors etc)
E-Series Premium Brakes (EL GT Spec or better)

Cars chosen will end up needing to be similar masses, and must be able to attain high speeds relatively quickly.

As this is in preliminary planning right now the sooner you respond the better.

Cheers,
EFFalcon

Casper · 14-05-2006, 10:15 PM

lol.. well written John

niko · 14-05-2006, 10:22 PM

wooooooooooooohooooooooooooooooooo 50cent peice comfort

Poetic Justice · 14-05-2006, 10:41 PM

I have dba slotted discs - Ill be in it

Barry_v · 14-05-2006, 10:46 PM

how about we retrofit an EA with XK drum brakes and 13" crossply tyres. DRUM BRAKE PRIDE!

volcom20 · 15-05-2006, 10:23 AM

Where would we have to meet? I own a EF Fairmont with stockers (Ie, the 299mm rears and ... 27-something? at the front)

I'd be happy to perticipate

EA2BA · 15-05-2006, 10:28 AM

Can we do an I6 as well as a V8 one at the same time.

Kenaz · 15-05-2006, 11:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EFFalcon

must be able to attain high speeds relatively quickly.

Well that rules out a lot of the 6cyl guys

: haha j/k

I assume this will be a Saturday? I'll need to organise the day off work, but that should be ok

EFFalcon · 15-05-2006, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EA2BA

Can we do an I6 as well as a V8 one at the same time.

i'd say if they can get enough people to do it they'd do it.
how ever considering the only difference between the V8 and I6 is the weight, theres not much of a point.
the only reason it was stated V8 was due to having to get the car to a high speed, then stop again within the allotted space.

**russellw** · 16-05-2006, 04:44 PM

Date has been set as June 10th.

All of the cars will be driven by our nominated professional driver through a cyle of six stops - 2 each from 60 km/h, 80 km/h and 110 km/h. Each set is cycled with the only cool down time being the return run down the unused lane at Heathcote.

Data acquisition will be via both a radar operated Stalker ATTS set up behind the start line to record the entire run plus in car data acquired with a VBox mounted via suction cups to the inside of the windscreen. The aim is not for flat out acceleration but to test the braking capability in an ABS (where equipped) activated stop for each vehicle.

Photography for the day will be handled behind the staging area.

As the purpose is to establish the differences between various models and the braking options in the aftermarket those with non standard brakes are particularly invited to attend. Each set of runs should take no more than 15 minutes but you are welcome to stay and assist with the testing.

Regards
Russ

mcflux · 16-05-2006, 05:38 PM

I'm waiting for the physics specialists to start bashing me here (I have a feeling I'm about to ask a dumb question...)

Here goes:

Would the tyre type/quality and amount of tread impact greatly on the braking distances/times achieved?

I'm out (not that I'd put my name up yet), I've got an exam on the 9th and another on the 12th. I'll need my ugly sleep over that weekend.

LUXO_8 · 16-05-2006, 05:41 PM

should be a good day, good to see some different events being organised as well..... (not that the other events are boring or anything - far from it, just good to see some more variety

)

Stevo · 16-05-2006, 07:05 PM

I have crappy tyres on (new, but cheap). But id be interested in know breaking distances (ie how crap it is).

Im interested

FordFan86 · 16-05-2006, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghia5L

Would the tyre type/quality and amount of tread impact greatly on the braking distances/times achieved?

Yes...
Bald tyres v brand new tyres would make a *small* difference
there will only be subtle differences between similar tread/different brands i'd assume..

Aaron_EF8 · 16-05-2006, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by D4V3

Would the tyre type/quality and amount of tread impact greatly on the braking distances/times achieved?

It would depend on the tyres. E-Series brakes are that poo-like they won't lock up a 235/45R17 at all on a good surface, but you should be able to do it with a 205/65R15.

How are things like weight transfer, wheel alignment, ABS, tyre type/condition etc standardised in the brake tests?

**russellw** · 16-05-2006, 08:52 PM

In this situation (with older models) we are unable to remove the variables such as suspension state, tyre wear and even weight thus we have to accept that the direct comparative data is of less value than it would be with 3 nearly new vehicles on identical tyres and at similar mileage as we had last time. None the less there is still some value in the model to model and stock to aftermarket comparative as we can apply an equalisation factor to the data anyway.

Statistically the potential error introduced could be as high as 10 % but that is an acceptable level given the age and condition of the vehicles.

Cheers
Russ

Poetic Justice · 16-05-2006, 08:54 PM

When are you letting anyone know who's in?

Walkinshaw · 17-05-2006, 11:11 AM

Why not have a "control" tyre and rim.

Specify a set of 17x8 or 18x8(to clear any brakes) with control rubber for all the tests.

Tyre compound can have a larger impact on braking distance than pad/disc composition (seing as the tests more than likely will not show up much "fade" problems having only 6 stops with a reasonable cooldown time)..

**russellw** · 17-05-2006, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walkinshaw

Why not have a "control" tyre and rim.

Specify a set of 17x8 or 18x8(to clear any brakes) with control rubber for all the tests.

Tyre compound can have a larger impact on braking distance than pad/disc composition (seing as the tests more than likely will not show up much "fade" problems having only 6 stops with a reasonable cooldown time)..

This is probably a reasonable suggestion. I shall rattle around and see if we can scavenge a set of suitable tyres/rims.

Cheers
Russ

**russellw** · 09-06-2006, 09:08 AM

We have a schedule conflict that means we will have to postpone this event. I will arrange a suitable date with HPR and repost it here.

Cheers
Russ

sam12h · 09-06-2006, 10:42 AM

[QUOTE=Aaron_EF8]It would depend on the tyres. E-Series brakes are that poo-like they won't lock up a 235/45R17 at all on a good surface, but you should be able to do it with a 205/65R15. [QUOTE]

Then your brakes (and most other peoples I suspect) are in serious need of some maintenance! This would have to be the most needlessly neglected parts on an average E-series. These cars are at least 8 & up to 18 years old!

At wakefield, in the EB1 GL V8, I had no trouble at all locking 235/45/17 Michelin Pilots with simply standard discs, lines, booster, fresh castrol dot 4 fluid & Bendix Metal Kings. In fact, approaching the sharp left of turn 8, particularly on laps 2 & 3 as the pads reached optimal temperature, I had to be VERY careful NOT to lock up. GOOD CONDITION standard brakes with decent quality pads & grippy front tyres are more than enough for an emergency stop, especially if you have optional abs.

The tyres (size, condition, compound, temperature, pressure) will affect braking distance more than anything else with a 1 stop. (Big influence on hot stops & lap times too). If you are gonna do repeated hot stops then bigger discs, braided lines, high temp pads etc will help, but not on a cold stop.

Walkinshaws idea is great. Good rubber will always have an advantage (shocks & springs will help too if the surface is not perfect). As with any test, unless as many controlable conditions are equal (tyres compound/condition/pressure etc, pads, fluid, recent maintenance, shocks, springs etc) & non equal items noted (driver, vehicle weight/model/odo reading etc) then the results will mean very little.

Aaron_EF8 · 09-06-2006, 11:49 AM

I know what stock E-Series brakes should feel like, E-Series haven't always been 8-18 year old cars...

Again there's variables in your instance, having added -ve camber will greatly reduce the tyres braking ability, as well as extra inflation, weight transfer, a bumpy corner, trail braking etc. My comments were regarding stopping in a straight line on a smooth road, like Heathcote Park. Michelin Pilots are also towards the cheaper end of the 'performance tyre' bracket, although you haven't said which model Pilot it is (there are 3 available in Australia).

Back to the brake testing day, there are some other factors that could be standardised, such as wheel alignment and spring type. The most common springs used by E-Series members on here are King Superlows, so if there is enough volunteers with Superlows and a recent wheel alignment spec sheet, their vehicles could be used?

sam12h · 09-06-2006, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron_EF8

I know what stock E-Series brakes should feel like, E-Series haven't always been 8-18 year old cars...

Again there's variables in your instance, having added -ve camber will greatly reduce the tyres braking ability, as well as extra inflation, weight transfer, a bumpy corner, trail braking etc. My comments were regarding stopping in a straight line on a smooth road, like Heathcote Park. Michelin Pilots are also towards the cheaper end of the 'performance tyre' bracket, although you haven't said which model Pilot it is (there are 3 available in Australia).

Back to the brake testing day, there are some other factors that could be standardised, such as wheel alignment and spring type. The most common springs used by E-Series members on here are King Superlows, so if there is enough volunteers with Superlows and a recent wheel alignment spec sheet, their vehicles could be used?

I was merely stating that it could be done easily & demonstrated that I know from experience. My car does not have much camber (yet), but at least we can agree that there needs to be as much standardisation as possible to make the results as useful as possible.
As i read once in an article, "sometimes testing raises more questions than answers"