'Major announcement' from Toyota this afternoon

[Gadgetman]

[QUOTE=johnydep;5021689] Will the Government give my business a hand out if I can't make a profit? Will it help me pay the wages of my staff? Will you?

Therein lies my question. Have Ford, Holden and Toyota pretty much spelt out to all other Australian business owners that you are better off organizing production of you goods in asia and retailing them here. Our country like any other does need a good balance. At the expense of lower priced consumables, I don't think what's been allowed to happen is going to have a positive effect long term.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

suppose you're gonna tell me next that a LX570 is a completely different car to a 200 series Landcruiser. Release the grip from your finger and palm mate.

So based on your "logic" Saleen, Hennessey, etc should also be categorised the same as FPV, HSV, Abarth, etc.
Yeah

Obviously you can't tell the difference between a manufacturer and a performance tuner. Like I said you have a problem with it I suggest you contact VFACTS and other such organisations and tell them what is classified as a marque vs model. Obviously you know so much more.....

That's my final response to you...to the ignore list you go.

[johnydep]

[QUOTE=Gadgetman;5021708]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Will the Government give my business a hand out if I can't make a profit? Will it help me pay the wages of my staff? Will you?

Therein lies my question. Have Ford, Holden and Toyota pretty much spelt out to all other Australian business owners that you are better off organizing production of you goods in asia and retailing them here. Our country like any other does need a good balance. At the expense of lower priced consumables, I don't think what's been allowed to happen is going to have a positive effect long term.

Build, manufacture and sell what people want. It's that simple.

It started in the late 60's early 70's - consumer wanted to travel across Australia to places that a sedan/wagon struggled, they wanted to tow a big caravan or boat. The Landrover was the vehicle of choice but price and rarity kept it out of reach of most. Along came Toyota with the Landcruiser, a cheap 4WD for the masses, for our miners, for outback industry.

Where was Ford and GM-H? Imagine if they'd introduced a proper 4WD to sell along side the usual sedans.

They both tried re-badging, but that's just another sale for the opposition that has built it.

Ford finally got it's act together with the Territory; sales were outpacing manufacturing.

What did Ford do? They rested on their short success. No diesel engine, which the consumer was screaming for. Slow to rectify quality control issues. Slow to fix and improve.

Is ti OK to sell a substandard vehicle? No! But if you force a tax on imported vehicles, there becomes no reason to build better cars and build what people want. This is what happened during the 70's and 80's.

The Button Plan was designed to wean the auto industry off of protectionism and start becoming competitive. It almost worked. Except everyone became complacent during the boom years, lost sight of their goals and dropped the ball.

We can't blame wages, but we can look at the high costs of living - Electricity, gas, local Council rates, Superannuation, Work Cover, Health, industrial disputes, transport, travel, etc.

We lost the opportunity, we lost an industry. Goodbye Ford, goodbye Holden, goodby Toyota.

Now lets look at the next opportunity for the future. We have a clean slate.

[Gadgetman]

[QUOTE=Lexus is a completely different manufacturer to Toyota, just like Lamborghini is to Audi is to Volkswagen.[/QUOTE]

You made the correlation between Lexus and Toyota being completely different vehicles which contradicts your theory. Ignore the facts pal. Suppose an Infiniti is not a glorified Nissan either??

[Gadgetman]

[QUOTE=johnydep;5021725]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

Build, manufacture and sell what people want. It's that simple.

It started in the late 60's early 70's - consumer wanted to travel across Australia to places that a sedan/wagon struggled, they wanted to tow a big caravan or boat. The Landrover was the vehicle of choice but price and rarity kept it out of reach of most. Along came Toyota with the Landcruiser, a cheap 4WD for the masses, for our miners, for outback industry.

Where was Ford and GM-H? Imagine if they'd introduced a proper 4WD to sell along side the usual sedans.

They both tried re-badging, but that's just another sale for the opposition that has built it.

Ford finally got it's act together with the Territory; sales were outpacing manufacturing.

What did Ford do? They rested on their short success. No diesel engine, which the consumer was screaming for. Slow to rectify quality control issues. Slow to fix and improve.

Is ti OK to sell a substandard vehicle? No! But if you force a tax on imported vehicles, there becomes no reason to build better cars and build what people want. This is what happened during the 70's and 80's.

The Button Plan was designed to wean the auto industry off of protectionism and start becoming competitive. It almost worked. Except everyone became complacent during the boom years, lost sight of their goals and dropped the ball.

We can't blame wages, but we can look at the high costs of living - Electricity, gas, local Council rates, Superannuation, Work Cover, Health, industrial disputes, transport, travel, etc.

We lost the opportunity, we lost an industry. Goodbye Ford, goodbye Holden, goodby Toyota.

Now lets look at the next opportunity for the future. We have a clean slate.

Nothing but facts there. I agree. I don't like it but its true. Problem is as a country we need to now be inventive and bring new ideas in on what makes consumers tick. You cant rest on the fact that the public will pay a premium for Australian built products as the masses simply don't buy into this theory.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by johnydep

But if you force a tax on imported vehicles, there becomes no reason to build better cars and build what people want.

why is it that whenever people mention that the industry protection is too low, that people like you automatically go to the other extreme??

are you also suggesting the govt got zero return on their investment?

why is it that exports fail due to other countries having tariffs and taxes imposed on them, but its not ok for australia to have tariffs to protect its own industry?

auto industry the world over is protected by their own govts. no doubt state govt's also have policy to buy local. not australia. no, apparently we're smarter than that. we have state and fed govt avoiding buying local for fleets, and no protection of the industry, and in a couple of years we will no longer have an industry. yep, australia are the smart ones. the rest of the world have it wrong.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by prydey

why is it that whenever people mention that the industry protection is too low, that people like you automatically go to the other extreme??

are you also suggesting the govt got zero return on their investment?

why is it that exports fail due to other countries having tariffs and taxes imposed on them, but its not ok for australia to have tariffs to protect its own industry?

auto industry the world over is protected by their own govts. no doubt state govt's also have policy to buy local. not australia. no, apparently we're smarter than that. we have state and fed govt avoiding buying local for fleets, and no protection of the industry, and in a couple of years we will no longer have an industry. yep, australia are the smart ones. the rest of the world have it wrong.

Fair enough. While you're asking questions, how about answering some.

What is the total dollar value of protectionism for each country and their car manufacturers?

What is the make and percentage of Australian government fleet?

What is the percentage of return on our Tax dollars, that you hint the Governments received?

While your at it - What has the documented facts been on the effects of the closures of Nissan and Mitsubishi?

And lastly - if the consumer stops buying a product, is it the Governments duty to force them to purchase? How many purchases should a government make? What is an acceptable level of tax on imported cars? Why stop at cars, why not clothing, shoes, furniture, car parts, fuel? What happens when production outstrips sales?

[Gadgetman]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Fair enough. While you're asking questions, how about answering some.

What is the total dollar value of protectionism for each country and their car manufacturers?

What is the make and percentage of Australian government fleet?

What is the percentage of return on our Tax dollars, that you hint the Governments received?

While your at it - What has the documented facts been on the effects of the closures of Nissan and Mitsubishi?

And lastly - if the consumer stops buying a product, is it the Governments duty to force them to purchase? How many purchases should a government make? What is an acceptable level of tax on imported cars? Why stop at cars, why not clothing, shoes, furniture, car parts, fuel? What happens when production outstrips sales?

In relation to your last point about Governments forcing the public, In only the last 6 months have Govt depts been given a mandate to buy local where they can!! *******!!!!!

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Wretched

I would consider FPV, HSV and Abarth models and not marques.
They're not seperated by VFACTS and come under the parent organisation as they should. Otherwise you'd need to have AMG, M sport, Quattro.

so is the cruze a holden or deawoo?

HSV: different suspension, engine, gearbox, diff, bumper, 3/4 panel, beaver panel, electronics, seats, interior, wheels...

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by johnydep

We lost the opportunity, we lost an industry. Goodbye Ford, goodbye Holden, goodby Toyota.

You forgot: Goodbye BMC/Leyland, Nissan and Chrysler/Mitsubishi.

There was also LNC which built Volkswagens, and AMI which built many cars including Triumph, Mercedes, Rambler, Toyota and Vanguard before Toyota took over.

Would be interesting to see a full list of makes and models built in Australia, from ckd to those fully designed and built here.

It was a big industry years ago, people have forgotten how big it was.

[Wretched]

Originally Posted by burnz

so is the cruze a holden or deawoo?

HSV: different suspension, engine, gearbox, diff, bumper, 3/4 panel, beaver panel, electronics, seats, interior, wheels...

Daewoo no longer make cars. You're referring to GM Korea.
To answer your question, Cruze is a MODEL sold through the MARQUE of HOLDEN in Australia.

HSV != a MARQUE/MAKE it is the performance arm of Holden vehicles. Like I said in my earlier posts, just like AMG, FPV, M Sport, Quattro GMbH, etc. Not a MARQUE/MAKE.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

You forgot: Goodbye BMC/Leyland, Nissan and Chrysler/Mitsubishi.

There was also LNC which built Volkswagens, and AMI which built many cars including Triumph, Mercedes, Rambler, Toyota and Vanguard before Toyota took over.

Would be interesting to see a full list of makes and models built in Australia, from ckd to those fully designed and built here.

It was a big industry years ago, people have forgotten how big it was.

Mostly all CKD...that used to be simply massive business in the old days. Our daughters first car was a tiny little old 1969 Corolla KE20 coupe (wish we still had it) that had "AMI" badges on the sides and rear.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by johnydep

What is the percentage of return on our Tax dollars, that you hint the Governments received?

graziano claimed that for every $1 they received from the govt, they put $6 back in to the economy.

i believe GMh and toyota would have been similar. falcons were 70% australian content. losing the auto industry will have a massive flow on effect as that spending disappears from the economy.

all 3 manufacturers aren't 'australian' manufacturers. they are outposts of the parent company. the factories here are largely making cars in a segment that has tanked over the last decade or so. the parent companies aren't going to start making cars from more popular segments here when those cars are already being made in other factories around the world, far cheaper than what australia could make them.
one question is, who were once one of the biggest supporters of that large car segment. the answer - the govts, state and federal. fleets etc. the push to 'greener' vehicles by annoying minority groups that get listened to almost killed that segment overnight. its only recently the spotlight has once again turned to supporting local built, but alas, it was all too late.

i wonder how much govt spend via centrelink payments for unemployed?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

You made the correlation between Lexus and Toyota being completely different vehicles which contradicts your theory. Ignore the facts pal. Suppose an Infiniti is not a glorified Nissan either??

The difference is that Lexus and Infiniti actually design and build cars from the ground up, whilst Abarth, FPV, AMG and the like are limited to modifying the cars supplied to them from the head manufacture. However, Abarth are treated as separate in some countries if I'm not mistaken, even though they are basically Fiat 500's.

It could be argued that with FPV (before the sale) and HSV being co-owned and run separate from parent companies, they could be listed as there own. However, they technically do not manufacture cars, rather are the manufacturer, supplier and fitter of performance parts to GM-Holden manufactured products.

Originally Posted by burnz

so is the cruze a holden or deawoo?

1. Daewoo Motors doesn't exist anymore.
2. Holden manufactured the car, come 2017, Holden will continue as a sales brand for cars under the GM empire.


So, I really don't know your point?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Nikked

1. Daewoo Motors doesn't exist anymore.
2. Holden manufactured the car, come 2017, Holden will continue as a sales brand for cars under the GM empire.


So, I really don't know your point?

GM korea does exist,

so whats my point you ask.

there is less work in a badge engineered cruze hatch, than a HSV badged unit.
the cruze hatch carries the deawoo VIN, not holdens.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by burnz

GM korea does exist,

so whats my point you ask.

there is less work in a badge engineered cruze hatch, than a HSV badged unit.
the cruze hatch carries the deawoo VIN, not holdens.

GM Korea, not Daewoo.

The cruze is a global developed car, built on a General motors platform developed buy Opel in Germany.

Any car sold in Australia carries the Vin that the car is sold under, the VIN is a Holden number. The compliance plate that carries this number varies depending on the source of the car, a Cruze still has a typical Holden plate, while something like a Captiva first had "GMDAT"...

Either way, GM Korea is under the control of GM Holden...

[Ghiaman]

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

Mostly all CKD...that used to be simply massive business in the old days. Our daughters first car was a tiny little old 1969 Corolla KE20 coupe (wish we still had it) that had "AMI" badges on the sides and rear.

You mean like this?

[GT2]

Originally Posted by Gadgetman

We as a country are stupid to not protect our industry. When you take into account the import tariffs most countries have that protect their local producers.

I think we as a country do protect our industry.
Korea has a 500% tariff on Australian tuna, they have a 300% tariff on Australian potatoes and wine. These tariffs will disappear as part of the agreement.
This is true Australian industry that other countries can't take from us.

These are just a couple of examples.
There are tariffs on sugar which will disappear, tariffs on rice, and even financial services.

Let them knock themselves out building cars, we have their food security.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by GT2

I think we as a country do protect our industry.
Korea has a 500% tariff on Australian tuna, they have a 300% tariff on Australian potatoes and wine. These tariffs will disappear as part of the agreement.
This is true Australian industry that other countries can't take from us.

These are just a couple of examples.
There are tariffs on sugar which will disappear, tariffs on rice, and even financial services.

Let them knock themselves out building cars, we have their food security.

Until they learn to do so just like they have done with every other industry we USED to have.

[GT2]

Anyone can learn to do it, but if you don't have the land mass?

[Struggo]

Thailand likely to get Toyota Oz’s $331 million engine-making plant post 2017

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257C83000656DE

While Toyota Australia produces about 100,000 Camry, Camry Hybrid and Aurion vehicles, with about 70 per cent going for export, mainly to the Middle East, Toyota Motor Thailand produces more than 880,000 vehicles, exporting them across the ASEAN region and to countries such as Australia.

Toyota Australia has imported its top-selling ute, the HiLux, from Thailand for years, and now has switched production of its biggest seller, the Corolla, to the Asian kingdom for the latest model released locally today.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by GT2

Anyone can learn to do it, but if you don't have the land mass?

Advancements in land free agriculture will put pay to the need for vast tracts of farm land outside of cities.

Havana in Cuba ( the city of 2.2 million inhabitants)provides 50 percent of Cuba’s vegetable stock, all organic due to trade embargoes. The need for food security post 1989 after the collapse of the soviet union forced the Cubans to rethink agriculture, a very successful urban agriculture industry sprang out of nowhere or perhaps everywhere including rooftops, balconies and any suitable surface. And they are low tech.

The modern vertical farm, laboratory food source, and growing urban agriculture idea will mean those who need to transform from importer to producer can and will be able to do so.

As such traditional farming can be replaced with a new high tech solution that will allow greater calorific output per input, be closer to where its consumed and result in the democratisation of food production and secure their food security.

Cuba is a great example of where the need arose the will of the people made it happen. When the resource wars begin I hope we are able to follow the others.
Food and power security means sovereignty. Korea will have no problems adopting this model if necessary

JP

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by Struggo

Thailand likely to get Toyota Oz’s $331 million engine-making plant post 2017

http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257C83000656DE

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Yes and toll will buy what ever trucks they need to do the job. Theres plenty of imports sitting around the place that just need a green paint job!

3AW rumour file this morning mentioned the engine plant staying as a stand alone export only concern...
Could possibly work I reckon?
Pick and choose their workforce, vehicle union now virtually cut off at the knees?
And, I believe it's as high-tech as anything OS

[Franco Cozzo]

Unless they run the joint with people imported on 457 visas, the AMWU will find its way back in there.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Charliewool

3AW rumour file this morning mentioned the engine plant staying as a stand alone export only concern...
Could possibly work I reckon?
Pick and choose their workforce, vehicle union now virtually cut off at the knees?
And, I believe it's as high-tech as anything OS

That would be fantastic news if it all comes together..

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Unless they run the joint with people imported on 457 visas, the AMWU will find its way back in there.

Maybe bringing electricity prices back to when we had the cheapest power amongst the developed world, might save the remainder of manufacturing.

I can't beleive the number of people that keep going on about governments needing to hand money to businesses to stay in Australia how about just making it possible for business to make profits, and wanting to stay here on their own accord!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Maybe bringing electricity prices back to when we had the cheapest power amongst the developed world, might save the remainder of manufacturing.

I can't beleive the number of people that keep going on about governments needing to hand money to businesses to stay in Australia how about just making it possible for business to make profits, and wanting to stay here on their own accord!

Unfortunately the power station is privately owned, so its up to the share holders/owners what they want to charge.

Who can you blame for that one?

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Unfortunately the power station is privately owned, so its up to the share holders/owners what they want to charge.

Who can you blame for that one?

Yes, to a certain extent, they put a percentage on top of the costs so they can make a profit. That's fair, everyone either works or starts a business to make a profit - living.

What is not fair is the burden of excess taxes, levies, bureaucracies, red tape, etc - Renewable Energy Target, Carbon Tax.

This isn't some fanciful conspiracy theory, the facts show that the above two items have caused the increase in electricity at a much higher level than any "profit" gouging.

Remember that the reasoning behind the RET and CT was to clean up the environment of carbon. Renewable is one way, the other is drop consumption.

With the aluminium industry (largest single user of electricity) and the automotive industry closing down - mission achieved

Funny how Germany is going back to fossil fuel, to make their industry more competitive. And the US, which never signed onto European carbon solutions, is now becoming one of the most competitive manufacturing markets in the developed world.

Australia, with all it's natural resources, should be producing electricity cheaper than any other country in the world. If we can do that we'll be competitive again.

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

Unfortunately the power station is privately owned, so its up to the share holders/owners what they want to charge.

Who can you blame for that one?

Just had another thought on this.

Ford, GM-H, Toyota are "unfortunately" "privately owned" with "share holders/owners" charging "what they want". While also crying poor and forcing governments to pay them with tax payer dollars to build cars and send profits back to their country of origin "share holders/owners"

[Trump]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Yes, to a certain extent, they put a percentage on top of the costs so they can make a profit. That's fair, everyone either works or starts a business to make a profit - living.

What is not fair is the burden of excess taxes, levies, bureaucracies, red tape, etc - Renewable Energy Target, Carbon Tax.

This isn't some fanciful conspiracy theory, the facts show that the above two items have caused the increase in electricity at a much higher level than any "profit" gouging.

Remember that the reasoning behind the RET and CT was to clean up the environment of carbon. Renewable is one way, the other is drop consumption.

With the aluminium industry (largest single user of electricity) and the automotive industry closing down - mission achieved

Funny how Germany is going back to fossil fuel, to make their industry more competitive. And the US, which never signed onto European carbon solutions, is now becoming one of the most competitive manufacturing markets in the developed world.

Australia, with all it's natural resources, should be producing electricity cheaper than any other country in the world. If we can do that we'll be competitive again.

The reason electricity prices are so high in Australia is purely due to out and out greed. The power companies are on record as saying that the reason the costs are so high is to recoup investment put into the electrical infrastructure of the country. Driving around the countryside reveals no such investment has happened, at least nowhere near to the levels they are claiming. I see cracked insulators on the bigger transmission towers on a daily basis, a lot of the actual power lines are rusting and the substations I go past on a regular basis look like something out of Chernobyl.

The carbon tax didn't help, but its effects were nowhere near as bad as many claim. A lot of the so-called gold plating of the electricity grid was done well before the carbon tax was even a wet dream in Ruddys round little bonce.

One of the joys of a captive market...