Tax the rich?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by MAD

As a society, we should be providing 'free' access to all those things for those that need it.
It's where I want my taxes to go.

I want free access 24x7x365 to a Maclaren P1 because I need it. Do you see a problem with such a sweeping statement?

[MAD]

Originally Posted by cheap

I want free access 24x7x365 to a Maclaren P1 because I need it. Do you see a problem with such a sweeping statement?

Yes, I do see a problem.

There are fundamental needs in life; Health, education, shelter.

MacLaren isn't one of those.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by MAD

Yes, I do see a problem.

There are fundamental needs in life; Health, education, shelter.

MacLaren isn't one of those.

But I need the Maclaren for my health - I've got a doctor's certificate to prove it, my education will better because I'll get to school on time and I will sleep in it. This is the problem when government decides to "look" after people.

[MAD]

I think you've picked the wrong item for the example, but I get where you're going.


The system definitely needs work.

But does a private company do any better when profits are on the table?

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by cheap

But I need the Maclaren for my health - I've got a doctor's certificate to prove it, my education will better because I'll get to school on time and I will sleep in it. This is the problem when government decides to "look" after people.

This is a strawman because it's a ridiculous example, and completely ignores the real issues.
Access to health, education and shelter is a requirement for the betterment of society. What you choose to do with that and how you amplify that is up to you.

[mcnews]

Okay some perspective.

The average yearly income of workers (excluding pensioners obviously) is $55,000 a year.

80 per cent of taxpayers earn under that $55,000 average. This is because there are so many people earning much, much more than that $55,000 average.

And yes those figures are correct....

Like I said early in the thread, what planet are some of you on...?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Okay some perspective.

The average yearly income of workers (excluding pensioners obviously) is $55,000 a year.

80 per cent of taxpayers earn under that $55,000 average. This is because there are so many people earning much, much more than that $55,000 average.

And yes those figures are correct....

Like I said early in the thread, what planet are some of you on...?

When you say there are so many people earning more, that would mean that 20% of the taxpayers earn over $55,000? Wouldn't it?

[BHDOGS]

No he means 80 percent of people earn less but 20 percent earn so much it drags the average up to above what regular people actually earn

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by cheap

When you say there are so many people earning more, that would mean that 20% of the taxpayers earn over $55,000? Wouldn't it?

you'll find the average is a bit higher than 55k these days, I think it's closer to 70k (which is before tax) from memory.
The disparity between average and real high income is phenomenal. You just need a couple of people like Rinehart and Murdoch earning what they do and it drags the average up, without the average person actually earning it.

[mcnews]

Nope it's 55 on latest figures. Economist was on Radio National this week spelling it all out. Also to be the last of the top one percent, as in the poorest in that top one percent, you have to be worth more than 15 million. There are 90,000 in that top above 15 million bracket....

[Lotte]

Not according to the abs figures of weekly earnings.
It's going to depend on if they focus solely on fulltime (what I was looking at) or combination of full time and part time. Which would be roughly that, from what I can see, eye balling the math.
But meh, it's not a huge difference when you think of earning 15mil a year.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by Lotte

What I've bolded kind of emphasises why state schools need more funding than private. If parents can afford private, great, but don't belittle public because of your issues with it. Those kids deserve an equal chance as well. Why? It's nobodies fault that they are born into the life they are

Nobody blames the kids in public schools, it's the teachers that suck.
They are not responsible for their performance, if it was a normal workplace they would get scrutinised....but not govt workers, nope they'll go on stress leave if you challenge why half their year group failed.

The buildings and sports ovals have nothing to do with my opinion of the public system, but the way they are run is a big fail.

Originally Posted by Lotte

Hell. I am one of those kids. Single parent, two kids, state school (ex tech school). I'm an engineer, and my sister is an accomplished author and full time editor.

Things are different now to when you were a kid mate.

I went to state schools too, there was no need to go anywhere else.

Originally Posted by Lotte

But we both have tatts and I have piercings. I suppose that's the state school's fault, and that makes us riff raff.

Well you couldn't work in our business, you'd scare the customers away.
I guess that's the choice your parents took when they let you "free range".

Originally Posted by Lotte

On the flip side, I know plenty of kids who went to private schools and have drinking/drug problems, demand everything, want everything on a silver platter. Oh and most are inked and pierced.

Yep.. cheap private schools are worse than the worst public schools.
The rejects from the state system go there, cause the public schools kick them out.

Solution? Get into an expensive private school.

Originally Posted by Lotte

I think what that demonstrates is how parenting effects children.

The school grounds are behind the firewall, when you send your kids to school you let your guard down.

You can be the world's best parent, but if a teacher is selling dope to your kid or imparting their bad habits on them, comes to school with nineteen ear rings through their nose then what hope have you got as a parent?

Have never see a teacher in the private system covered in tatts and ear rings through his/her tongue....but have seen it at a state High school..often,

[Lotte]

Originally Posted by zilo

Nobody blames the kids in public schools, it's the teachers that suck.
They are not responsible for their performance, if it was a normal workplace they would get scrutinised....but not govt workers, nope they'll go on stress leave if you challenge why half their year group failed.

Tarnishing a group with the same brush. I had some **** teachers, most were fantastic. Many of my friends who are teachers are amazing at their job, and put in everything they have. In public schools. And their work is under appreciated
On top of. Not funding state school just hurts the kids, it does nothing to the teachers.

Originally Posted by zilo

The buildings and sports ovals have nothing to do with my opinion of the public system, but the way they are run is a big fail.

Nobody said anything about sports grounds. Funding needs to be put in to provide basic facilities and enough teachers who are suitable.

Originally Posted by zilo

Things are different now to when you were a kid mate.

I went to state schools too, there was no need to go anywhere else.

How old do you think I am?

Originally Posted by zilo

Well you couldn't work in our business, you'd scare the customers away.
I guess that's the choice your parents took when they let you "free range".

Pretty big assumption. I take piercings out for work and all of my ink is covered. Book. Cover. You know the drill.

Originally Posted by zilo

Yep.. cheap private schools are worse than the worst public schools.
The rejects from the state system go there, cause the public schools kick them out.

Solution? Get into an expensive private school.

Who said anything about cheap? You're starting to make an awful lot of assumptions.

Originally Posted by zilo

The school grounds are behind the firewall, when you send your kids to school you let your guard down.

You can be the world's best parent, but if a teacher is selling dope to your kid or imparting their bad habits on them, comes to school with nineteen ear rings through their nose then what hope have you got as a parent?

Have never see a teacher in the private system covered in tatts and ear rings through his/her tongue....but have seen it at a state High school..often,

I've seen a total of zero teachers like that, but perhaps people should be teaching their kids not to automatically assign badassery and rebellion to body art. You'll find many people like that are in fact the nicest people, and you're really starting to display an air of superiority over people who choose to "look different".
As for what hope have you got as a parent? Besides the above point I just made? Teach your kids morals and ethics, and let them make their own choices. Guide them to making the right decisions and they'll be able to go "hey.... So selling pot to students isn't cool" and report it. You'd be surprised what kids learn from their parents (and some of us still do)

[gtfpv]

Originally Posted by zilo

Public schools are staffed by teachers in one of the most militant unions.

So many times in the past they chose to go on strike in the most critical time of the year for year 12 students.

Public servant attitudes educating my kids? NF Way.

In business we did a lot of IT work in state high schools and all they were pumping out was factory fodder in a lot of state High schools....the conversations we overheard in the staff rooms made us shake our heads....and glad that we chose private schools for our kids.

Makes me puke when people insist that private schools shouldn't get the same funding as state schools.

Most of the people who send their kids to private schools are husband and wife working hard just to get the kids through....and they don't sook about it either.

I had 3 kids at a private school all at the same time and tell you what...I could have been posting on the Lamborghini forum instead of Ford if I had used the public system...$33k a year per kid we paid...for 6 years,

WOW I HOPE YOUR AIMING HIGH FOR THEM .
TO THINK , thats. $594000. you couldve bought them a nice 3 bedroom home for that outright and then they couldve owned it outright , and worked at maccas for the same standard of living as a tradie . LOL

I REMEMBER talking with my misses about private schooling . i remeber thinking about it from kindy right through to the end of uni . and i was thinking . maybe throw them in public , see how they go and buy them a house each instead . then they could be dumb , and end up with a start better than most have by the time they're 40 . LOL

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Nope it's 55 on latest figures. Economist was on Radio National this week spelling it all out. Also to be the last of the top one percent, as in the poorest in that top one percent, you have to be worth more than 15 million. There are 90,000 in that top above 15 million bracket....

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/australia/wages

[buggerlugs]

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money...-1226910739573

[cheap]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

http://www.news.com.au/finance/money...-1226910739573

Only half? That is the surprise.

IMO, Welfare has become akin to drug dependency, it has morphed from a benefit into a cancer which is exploited by politicians and those welfare people to buy votes and maintain their lifestyle. The system requires urgent drastic treatment alternatively the right to vote and voting power is proportionately removed from those on welfare. It is being used to stop progress in the country, I'm sick of paying more in tax (highest marginal rate + levies) than I can retain for my family, whilst countess needy families (many who berate so called wealthy people) suck off off my money - oh yeah they all have a hard luck story!

[superyob]

[QUOTE=zilo;5092029]Nobody blames the kids in public schools, it's the teachers that suck. They are not responsible for their performance, if it was a normal workplace they would get scrutinised....but not govt workers, nope they'll go on stress leave if you challenge why half their year group failed.

Really? You have lost all credibility just here. You have no idea what you are talking about and this sweeping generalisation has just proved it...

[superyob]

Originally Posted by cheap

Only half? That is the surprise.

IMO, Welfare has become akin to drug dependency, it has morphed from a benefit into a cancer which is exploited by politicians and those welfare people to buy votes and maintain their lifestyle. The system requires urgent drastic treatment alternatively the right to vote and voting power is proportionately removed from those on welfare. It is being used to stop progress in the country, I'm sick of paying more in tax (highest marginal rate + levies) than I can retain for my family, whilst countess needy families (many who berate so called wealthy people) suck off off my money - oh yeah they all have a hard luck story!

Absolutely 110% correct!

[cheap]

[QUOTE=superyob;5092145]

Originally Posted by zilo

Nobody blames the kids in public schools, it's the teachers that suck. They are not responsible for their performance, if it was a normal workplace they would get scrutinised....but not govt workers, nope they'll go on stress leave if you challenge why half their year group failed.

Really? You have lost all credibility just here. You have no idea what you are talking about and this sweeping generalisation has just proved it...

Generally speaking, it is not the state school teachers that are the problem. It is the state system which is so politically correct that teachers are not given appropriate management authority over the small ratbag percentage of ferals who ruin it for the vast number of good kids in the state system. The same ratbag are usually associated with dysfunctional couldn't care less parents - there's a surprise.

That's one primary reason we went private. I know for a fact our principal when faced with a repeat offender child, rang his parents and told them to take the kid away, "we don't need your money", if you want to take it further here's the phone number of of our lawyers. End of story - problem fixed!

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by cheap

End of story - problem fixed!

No the story continues, it's just someone else's problem.

[bungarra]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Okay some perspective.

The average yearly income of workers (excluding pensioners obviously) is $55,000 a year.

80 per cent of taxpayers earn under that $55,000 average. This is because there are so many people earning much, much more than that $55,000 average.

And yes those figures are correct....

Like I said early in the thread, what planet are some of you on...?

I'm on a planet where the ABS shows the Average Weekly Earnings to be $1574.9 (as of November 2013) which equates to $80490.8 a year.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....s?OpenDocument

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

No the story continues, it's just someone else's problem.

Yep, the problem is back with the parents to resolve - where it should have been in the first place.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by bungarra

I'm on a planet where the ABS shows the Average Weekly Earnings to be $1574.9 (as of November 2013) which equates to $80490.8 a year.

http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@....s?OpenDocument

Average, mean, median or mode?

[falcon_bandit]

Originally Posted by Full Noise

Rich Chinese, they’re everywhere and they can **** off back home for all I care. And when your kids can’t afford to ever buy a house, thank the rich Chinese. It’s got to the point now that they even print real estate brochures in Chinese.

Oh by the way, I’m a ******g racist and proud of it.

its unbeleivable that people/comments like this are accepted in society.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by falcon_bandit

its unbeleivable that people/comments like this are accepted in society.

Yeah and I bet he forgets that white people can **** right off too - taking up the land of the original land owners and printing everything in English!
Not an issue for the victor only a problem when they are the loser!

Cant wait for 18c to end!

JP

[falcon_bandit]

im sorry that my first post had to be this, but it really struck a chord with me. Racism is poisonous

[cheap]

Originally Posted by Lotte

This is a strawman because it's a ridiculous example, and completely ignores the real issues.
Access to health, education and shelter is a requirement for the betterment of society. What you choose to do with that and how you amplify that is up to you.

I'm in full agreement. My question is what role and responsibility does the individual have and what role and responsibility does that state have in fulfilling. Which has sort of been the underlying issue throughout this thread.

One side (my view) the individual should be responsible and the state as a last resort. Small government and Low tax option

Other side, people seem to be of the opinion of the state providing basically "free" everything. Tax the "rich" and anything else that moves to pay for this. Big government and High tax option

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Yeah and I bet he forgets that white people can **** right off too - taking up the land of the original land owners and printing everything in English!
Not an issue for the victor only a problem when they are the loser!

Cant wait for 18c to end!

JP

Conversely, these views and opinions are now out in the public domain, I think the VAST majority of people would disagree and see right through them. The court of public opinion is quite strong. Personally I don't think we need Govco/Laws to protect us from these views and to be frank it is impossible to stop people thinking whatever they want, which is a much better way of saying people have a right to be bigots. Throughout history people have displayed the ability to basically come to the right outcomes. 18C isn't quite the panacea that people think it is... But we digress (a lot)

[xxx000]

[QUOTE=cheap;5092150]

Originally Posted by superyob

Generally speaking, it is not the state school teachers that are the problem. It is the state system which is so politically correct that teachers are not given appropriate management authority over the small ratbag percentage of ferals who ruin it for the vast number of good kids in the state system. The same ratbag are usually associated with dysfunctional couldn't care less parents - there's a surprise.

That's one primary reason we went private. I know for a fact our principal when faced with a repeat offender child, rang his parents and told them to take the kid away, "we don't need your money", if you want to take it further here's the phone number of of our lawyers. End of story - problem fixed!

They are a business and they do need the money but rather than put real effort into fixing the issue, which could even potentially be due to a teacher sexually abusing a child, they push the problem elsewhere and call up the next on their 'waiting list' to replace them.
Why? Because reputation is all important for private schools, they don't want the tennis mums chatting about anything that could worry them.
Since these same private schools bludge money from taxpayers maybe they should identify formally that they're a private/public partnership?
Any private school that acknowledges it doesn't need govt money and 'sends it back' could be termed a full private school.

Could the private system cope if every public school student switched over?
That's as likely and absurd as the reverse.

So there's my two main suggestions for easily 'saving' billions: tax religions and don't fund non govt schools. End the two biggest rorts of our time, someone have the guts