FG FPV GT Rspec vs VF HSV GTS by MOTOR Mag

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by Motorbreath310

76 GTS's on Carsales at the moment!!

Imagine when these things come down even further in price? Weapons-grade super saloons everywhere!

I agree 100%. I think its almost inevitable that I'll probably be doing more than imagining it
As you suggest, I think a lot of people are waiting for the new model premium to come off the price and then its game on.

Originally Posted by strik9

hahaha oh it happened alright. took it for quick belt down the road had 60mm today. first impression was,nt disappointment . i,ve always had top of the line tyres on all my cars. but the continentals are unbelievable in the wet.

anyway love the heads up display very nice. feel its a little too techy i,m getting beeps for things i don,t know what there for, but considering the salesman just dropped it of and took off. had a 3hour drive back. and he,d been there a week . pretty sure i knew more than him at this stage.

lets just say its not slow either, i,m act afraid to put it next to my f6 its going to make it look so dated. but for you rodge i will. but you,ll have to pm me your mobile number and send you the pics and get you to put them up. i,m really sad with computers mate. the f6 is or was hot ****. but i,m not too sure now.

first impressions are i,m glad i got rid of the wife. lol its a friggen fantastic package and great value for money i think. considering an e2gts hsv fours years ago was the same price. hsv has done very well

and you better hurry pm me your number its getting dark hahaha or you can let me drink my beers and i,ll do it first thing tom .( or if you think i may have trouble sending pics to mexico south may need a volunteer to send there number)

and the brakes, well i guess your no there no disappointment . this car feels great to drive too . rather light in nimmble compared to the f6 for the much the same size car if not bigger. not nose heavy like the sc gt

this is,nt my review either. would like to let the i got a new car thing wear off. the real review is when i can drive it for a week. at this stage its a great car. would,nt like to say it leaves a tuned sc gt for dead. but it seems too, i,m talking the whole package really the fg is too dated imo now by the looks

Thanks for the initial feedback and congrats on your purchase mate .
I'll PM you my e.mail address and if you flick the photo's thru I'll flick them up for you. Drive it like its stolen

[rancidpunx]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I agree 100%. I think its almost inevitable that I'll probably be doing more than imagining it
As you suggest, I think a lot of people are waiting for the new model premium to come off the price and then its game on.

Thats already happened. In less than a month there were guys driving away cars for mid $90k, some low $90k. All the guys who went out early and laid down a deposit at full retail and then had to wait for it to be built were not to impressed when others could come walk in off the street lay down less cash and actually drive away in a car. Some of the original deposit guys have only just got their cars. Low $90k is where I think these will stabilise at, which is not to bad for what you get. Will look like a bargain if the upcoming parts bin special GT's are anything more than $80k.

[Rodge]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

Thats already happened. In less than a month there were guys driving away cars for mid $90k, some low $90k. All the guys who went out early and laid down a deposit at full retail and then had to wait for it to be built were not to impressed when others could come walk in off the street lay down less cash and actually drive away in a car. Some of the original deposit guys have only just got their cars. Low $90k is where I think these will stabilise at, which is not to bad for what you get. Will look like a bargain if the upcoming parts bin special GT's are anything more than $80k.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% but I think at this early stage in N.Z. its wise to play the long game as local dealers seem reluctant to do much with their asking price of $125,910 for an auto plus on-roads. There's a few just sitting there un-sold in Auckland dealerships already and I hear there's lots more coming across the Tasman soon. It will soon be a case of oversupply in N.Z.

[MAGPIE]

[QUOTE=Rodge;5055415]

I agree 100% but I think at this early stage in N.Z. its wise to play the long game as local dealers seem reluctant to do much with their asking price of $125,910 for an auto plus on-roads. There's a few just sitting there un-sold in Auckland dealerships already and I hear there's lots more coming across the Tasman soon. It will soon be a case of oversupply in N.Z.

Speaking of pricing Rodge did you read the article this week (in The Herald I think) about BMW/Merc pricing in NZ versus Oz.

May explain the GTS price ?

[Rodge]

Missed it in the Herald but yeah there's a full page about that in the latest April 2014 N.Z. Autocar magazine. Page 24 Paul Owen I think it is, don't have a copy but read my mate's one on his coffee table the other day.

It doesn't explain anything, its just that Mercedes-benz and BMW are rorting N.Z. customers, plain and simple, its gross corporate arrogance.

Top end Jaguar and Audi pricing is now far more realistic than BMW and Mercedes-benz. BTW have you seen the 2014 Jaguar XFR demo in Wellington, done less than 1,000 km's on Trade Me for only $119K Kiwi drive away ? Its got my tired old brain in overdrive, I tell ya !!
Less than a GTS and its a beautiful supercharged Jag !!
Here you go...hands off, I might make it mine
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=709272338

[2242100]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Very good times for your stock xr6t, 4.5 sec 0-100 is quicker than motor mag got out of the R Spec. The GTS times seem a bit off though

Yes 4ORDT, I agree that the Supercharged GTS times seem a bit off, but the other two Australian Magazine tests that I've seen are pretty similar(apparently the same Automatic car was tested in the new EVO AUSTRALIA Magazine and a manual in Wheels).
The numbers aren't what I expected from a 430 kW car of the claimed weight, particularly in light of the WHEELS R Spec GT test car which was fast enough to get to 189 kph at the end of 400 metres. By contrast the HSV's end speeds were almost 4 to 6 k's slower and as we know end speed can tell a lot about a cars power, also the quality of the launch has a surprisingly small effect on the end speed (on 3/2/14 in this thread I posted data on this subject).
On the other hand though, from the limited data that Rodge was able to get out of NZ AUTOCAR Magazine, it seems that they got a faster car to test, so it's a bit confusing. It seems to me that something was holding the Australian test car engines back. I think they are great cars overall, but it would be good to know if the customers are getting faster cars than those in the above mentioned Australian Magazine tests.
I'm sure that it should be easy to get a lot more power out of them with a tune and small modifications, but as an owner I guess I wouldn't like to touch the car until around the end of the warranty period.
It would be good to know the 1/4 mile end speeds that people are getting at the dragstrip in standard cars. Has anyone seen any at the strip yet?

[Bent8]

Originally Posted by 2242100

Yes 4ORDT, I agree that the Supercharged GTS times seem a bit off, but the other two Australian Magazine tests that I've seen are pretty similar(apparently the same Automatic car was tested in the new EVO AUSTRALIA Magazine and a manual in Wheels).
The numbers aren't what I expected from a 430 kW car of the claimed weight, particularly in light of the WHEELS R Spec GT test car which was fast enough to get to 189 kph at the end of 400 metres. By contrast the HSV's end speeds were almost 4 to 6 k's slower and as we know end speed can tell a lot about a cars power, also the quality of the launch has a surprisingly small effect on the end speed (on 3/2/14 in this thread I posted data on this subject).
On the other hand though, from the limited data that Rodge was able to get out of NZ AUTOCAR Magazine, it seems that they got a faster car to test, so it's a bit confusing. It seems to me that something was holding the Australian test car engines back. I think they are great cars overall, but it would be good to know if the customers are getting faster cars than those in the above mentioned Australian Magazine tests.
I'm sure that it should be easy to get a lot more power out of them with a tune and small modifications, but as an owner I guess I wouldn't like to touch the car until around the end of the warranty period.
It would be good to know the 1/4 mile end speeds that people are getting at the dragstrip in standard cars. Has anyone seen any at the strip yet?

Looking at the stock outputs on the HSV forums, the GTS is most likely making about 405kW at the motor (avg 316rwkw).

And that's after factoring in a higher than usual driveline power loss (big drive shafts and 9.9" diff)

Combined with an 1882kg kerb weight, the GTS has around 215kW/tonne.... compared to the R-Spec which has 209kW/tonne.

The HSV suffers from diminishing returns because of it's overall weight... in other words, a car that weighs 1000kg and makes 215kW is going to be faster than a car that makes 430kW and weighs 2 tonnes.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by 2242100

Yes 4ORDT, I agree that the Supercharged GTS times seem a bit off, but the other two Australian Magazine tests that I've seen are pretty similar(apparently the same Automatic car was tested in the new EVO AUSTRALIA Magazine and a manual in Wheels).
The numbers aren't what I expected from a 430 kW car of the claimed weight, particularly in light of the WHEELS R Spec GT test car which was fast enough to get to 189 kph at the end of 400 metres. By contrast the HSV's end speeds were almost 4 to 6 k's slower and as we know end speed can tell a lot about a cars power, also the quality of the launch has a surprisingly small effect on the end speed (on 3/2/14 in this thread I posted data on this subject).
On the other hand though, from the limited data that Rodge was able to get out of NZ AUTOCAR Magazine, it seems that they got a faster car to test, so it's a bit confusing. It seems to me that something was holding the Australian test car engines back. I think they are great cars overall, but it would be good to know if the customers are getting faster cars than those in the above mentioned Australian Magazine tests.
I'm sure that it should be easy to get a lot more power out of them with a tune and small modifications, but as an owner I guess I wouldn't like to touch the car until around the end of the warranty period.
It would be good to know the 1/4 mile end speeds that people are getting at the dragstrip in standard cars. Has anyone seen any at the strip yet?

Those end speed times seem a little odd also, the head to head comparison between the R Spec and GTS in Motor Magazine's January issue is pretty much the opposite with the R Spec being 5km slower at 182km/hr vs 187km/hr for the GTS

As for drag times the fastest stock time that I have seen for the GTS are 12.18 at 190km/hr

[MAGPIE]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Missed it in the Herald but yeah there's a full page about that in the latest April 2014 N.Z. Autocar magazine. Page 24 Paul Owen I think it is, don't have a copy but read my mate's one on his coffee table the other day.

It doesn't explain anything, its just that Mercedes-benz and BMW are rorting N.Z. customers, plain and simple, its gross corporate arrogance.

Top end Jaguar and Audi pricing is now far more realistic than BMW and Mercedes-benz. BTW have you seen the 2014 Jaguar XFR demo in Wellington, done less than 1,000 km's on Trade Me for only $119K Kiwi drive away ? Its got my tired old brain in overdrive, I tell ya !!
Less than a GTS and its a beautiful supercharged Jag !!
Here you go...hands off, I might make it mine
http://www.trademe.co.nz/Browse/List...x?id=709272338

Just checked my Autocar mag and that is the same article, I must have read it on Stuff.

It does explain why they are rorting Kiwi customers ie more buoyant economy meaning people are more willing to pay the inflated prices.

Re the Jag, I wouldn't give the HSV a second glance compared to that

[Motorbreath310]

[QUOTE=Rodge;5055415]

There's a few just sitting there un-sold in Auckland dealerships already and I hear there's lots more coming across the Tasman soon. It will soon be a case of oversupply in N.Z.

I've seen more VF/Gen-F GTS's in the Waikato than I have any other HSV variant which I found surprising given the NZ pricing. That said; Aussie cars seem to have much less of a boganesque stigma attached to them here than in Australia - not as many around etc. plus they seem to hold their value well here.

Have you looked into what maintenance costs will be like between a GTS and the other cars on your hit list? (XFR, M5, maybe E63?)

[rancidpunx]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Those end speed times seem a little odd also, the head to head comparison between the R Spec and GTS in Motor Magazine's January issue is pretty much the opposite with the R Spec being 5km slower at 182km/hr vs 187km/hr for the GTS

As for drag times the fastest stock time that I have seen for the GTS are 12.18 at 190km/hr

That is the fastest but it's not been repeated. It was also at a time in which the GTS was being questioned. There were heaps of poor (for HSV claims) mag results for times then all of a sudden motor got another crack with the car. The same magazine that doctored the very first fpv hsv comparrison in the rain. I have no problems with the GTS being the better overall car but in the real world its not getting the times HSV orignally claimed, or the power for that matter.

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

That is the fastest but it's not been repeated. It was also at a time in which the GTS was being questioned. There were heaps of poor (for HSV claims) mag results for times then all of a sudden motor got another crack with the car. The same magazine that doctored the very first fpv hsv comparrison in the rain. I have no problems with the GTS being the better overall car but in the real world its not getting the times HSV orignally claimed, or the power for that matter.

I know of another GTS on another forum that ran a 12.3 at 115mph at Calder so real world times are not far off quoted HSV times. I think they quoted 12.3 and 0-100 in 4.4 or something didnt they?

[2242100]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

Those end speed times seem a little odd also, the head to head comparison between the R Spec and GTS in Motor Magazine's January issue is pretty much the opposite with the R Spec being 5km slower at 182km/hr vs 187km/hr for the GTS

As for drag times the fastest stock time that I have seen for the GTS are 12.18 at 190km/hr

Those end speeds do seem confusing but the following may explain it.

The GT Falcon and standard FG Turbo's apparently get their unexpected speed (ie unexpected for their claimed power) from a temporary overboost feature, but if Motor had been hot lapping the R Spec just before, or practicing starts, or running 400 metre tests with bad launches just prior to the actual test that they published, then that may have degraded the performance quite a bit if it didn't get a cool down run.
The overboost only lasts for a certain period and in the case of the WHEELS test it was still flying at the end of 400 metres but it probably wouldn't have taken too much more punishment without being cooled down.
I'm thinking that may go some way towards explaining the HSV"S better lap times. By the time a driver gets the driving technique refined the power may have gone off. I'm not aware that the HSV has an overboost feature so I suspect it has an advantage in this area. That said though, I think the overboost feature is all that most people would normally need in the real world on the road, except perhaps in the Northern Territory.
The HSV end speed that you saw of 190 kph (118 mph) seems close to what I think the car should get. The Cadillac CTS got a similar end speed in a Road & Track test. So that's one car that seems ok.

[ray38l]

so I know how a Turbo car can have a spike in boost but how can a supercharged engine do this? especially positive displacement? afaik the boost is set by the pulley size.

[2242100]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

I know of another GTS on another forum that ran a 12.3 at 115mph at Calder so real world times are not far off quoted HSV times. I think they quoted 12.3 and 0-100 in 4.4 or something didnt they?

The problem with being too specific about dragstrip quarter mile times (and 60 foot times) is that there can typically be up to from, 2 to 4 tenths of rollout when the car starts which isn't counted in the quarter mile time, instead it gets put into the reaction time. Actually I also covered that aspect in the post back on 3/2/14 on this thread.
The 115 mph Calder end speed isn't particularly good though because that's 185kph average over the last 66 feet, which would be about 186 at 400 metres.
I think HSV claimed a 4.4 to 100 time and with enough grip I'm sure it could do that and even better, but with mid 180 speeds at the end of the quarter I think that would normally lead to a 12.5 or more likely a 12.6 time for the 400 metres.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by MAGPIE

Just checked my Autocar mag and that is the same article, I must have read it on Stuff. It does explain why they are rorting Kiwi customers ie more buoyant economy meaning people are more willing to pay the inflated prices. Re the Jag, I wouldn't give the HSV a second glance compared to that

Just because they think they can isn't a valid reason though is it, that's a rort and if people are silly enough to pay retail...
Re the Jag, I dislike black as a colour, (I can't be bothered with all the cleaning work required to keep it looking good) but i'm down in Wellington on business on 30 April so if its still for sale I'll definitly have a look.
[QUOTE=Motorbreath310]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I've seen more VF/Gen-F GTS's in the Waikato than I have any other HSV variant which I found surprising given the NZ pricing. That said; Aussie cars seem to have much less of a boganesque stigma attached to them here than in Australia - not as many around etc. plus they seem to hold their value well here.
Have you looked into what maintenance costs will be like between a GTS and the other cars on your hit list? (XFR, M5, maybe E63?)

There's a LOT of dairy farmers doing extremly well with Fonterra's projected payout this year...traditionally farmers are quick to rush off and buy a new Holden or Ford when times are good, clearly times are very good if they're selling GTS's left right and centre. I did enquire with Team McMillan what a typical service is for a high end BMW and got the feedback that $900 plus GST is typical for a standard service. $700 - $800 plus GST is what I'm typically seeing with Coutts cars on my current Mercedes.
Once you get into replacing original equipment high end wide 20 inch tyres and more especially high end Euro disc rotors that's where the fun really starts I guess I'll find out soon enough, my local garage where I get a warrant reckons my Merc brakes are 75% worn at 50,000 km's. Better line up a third mortage on the house soon But seriously, these guys are pretty good with their Euro spare parts prices www.speed.co.nz

Originally Posted by ray38l

so I know how a Turbo car can have a spike in boost but how can a supercharged engine do this? especially positive displacement? afaik the boost is set by the pulley size.

Good question, they're only supposed to be making 8-9 p.s.i. from memory but I saw 11 p.s.i. on mine on the dyno just with a new BMC air filter.
Overboost is real and works in my opinion and is fine for most situations and all anyone really needs in normal driving but on the track I think they would get too hot and overboost would be less effective or perhaps completly ineffective.

Regarding the weight of the GTS. According to Autocar N.Z. (all cars fully fuelled) it weighed in at 1902 kg's which compares with a GT-P with its 6/4 Brembo's and bigger rotors at 1855 kg's or a GT with 4 /1 brembo's at 1829 kg's. E63S, BMW M5 and Jaguar XFR are all in the 1979-2005 kg's range according to the weigh bridge used by that Magazine so looking at all the tech and brake kit on the GTS I reckon it compares quite favourably with its peer group.

[Blue Roo]

Originally Posted by 40RDT

I know of another GTS on another forum that ran a 12.3 at 115mph at Calder so real world times are not far off quoted HSV times. I think they quoted 12.3 and 0-100 in 4.4 or something didnt they?

I think you'll find that the GTS has been tunned.

[Chopped]

Not sure what's done to it >

"2013 HSV VF GTS putting down 709rwhp with 13.5psi @ 6855 rpm 1089 nm."
(529rwkw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQrz4kyebvI

[dragons90]

Originally Posted by ray38l

so I know how a Turbo car can have a spike in boost but how can a supercharged engine do this? especially positive displacement? afaik the boost is set by the pulley size.

Because the bypass valve in the supercharger is controlled by the ecu to vent boost, so a standard car may be making 12psi but 3psi is vented normally so the motor sees 9psi when overboost kicks in it doesn't vent as much. That's why tune only car car run higher boost without a pulley kit.

Thanks Gerard

[2242100]

Originally Posted by ray38l

so I know how a Turbo car can have a spike in boost but how can a supercharged engine do this? especially positive displacement? afaik the boost is set by the pulley size.

I don't know too much about Superchargers, but I've been told that with the standard size pulley the GT can make more than the standard boost pressure and the excess just gets bled off.
From what Rodge said this morning his car apparently makes 2 to 3 pounds of extra boost in overboost mode.

[Rodge]

Bored at work ?
Watch this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYcQBN4DzXE

[Rob 351]

Love the comments on the bottom of that clip Rodge.
Bathurst is 130 miles east of Sydney.... Lol, you'd drown you wetbank yank!! Ha ha.
The US should take notes on how to build race tracks..
& another..
The Monaro is as exotic as a Lamborghini..... Bwa ha ha.. Now thats funny!

Still can't beat Courtney's drive in the 335 GT at Bathurst in 2010, that was insane!!

[40RDT]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Not sure what's done to it >

"2013 HSV VF GTS putting down 709rwhp with 13.5psi @ 6855 rpm 1089 nm."
(529rwkw)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQrz4kyebvI

Looks like it has a Magnuson blower on it. Would like to see what it would run at the strip

[strik9]

there is alot more to this car than how fast it go,s. so constantly nutting out they said this it does that. the soccer mum did in it 4.5 not 4.4 is just the surface of what it has to offer.

just a heads up for people so focused on numbers the sad part is it cost 10k to get 390rwkw not 2k like a gt. but a gt does,nt come close to this thing. even if you spent 8k on mods to get it to handle. simply does,nt have the tech .

but dont think i,m bagging a gt they are great in there own right and for there price. that is no dout

[strik9]

sorry needed to add, make no mistake this car handles like no other factory car i,ve had. even cars i,ve put sway bars and coil overs in. don,t come close . its a fantastic package. they don, t have raw grunt that ford is famous for.
but no slow poke. you know your in somthing you want to find the limits, cause as hard as you push it you feel you can go more .

mind you its no gtr without a dout. but your talking a different strain of car. for an aussie v8 this is a great piece of kit hsv did a great job. its very sad that fpv didn,t or it was too late to offer a rival

[mcnews]

Here are the pics you wanted me to post up for you.

[strik9]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Here are the pics you wanted me to post up for you.

thanks trev, and this is for all the car fans, you can see them side by side. fg looks bit dated too me(not that the performance is). but its not a gt so no lump in the bonnet. but you all will have your own thoughts and likes.

just for you rodge

[nstg8a]

Gee I reckon the f6 is the classier looker there.

Gts has the aggro looks but chuck a v8 bonnet on the f6 (or even a ho bonnet) and I reckon the f6 would match it

[Rob 351]

Nice cars you have there stik9. They both look great!!!

[lucas2]

The GTS ddefinitely looks newer, but damn the F6 looks sleek.